Massive needle phobia - treatment options for emergencies?!

Nudibranch

Nudibranch

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We have an 18 yo CB. She's seemingly had a very bad experience when younger as she is completely needle phobic. Vet has only ever seen one other as bad. Even after a whole syringe of sedative, snoring and head on the floor, she switches on and goes nuts at any attempt to inject.

This year we agreed to give up the vaccinations. It just isn't worth the risk to us and stress to her and she gets worse each time. However, it made me wonder about what happens if something serious happens and she needs some kind of treatment. I guess a bullet is the only option really. Has anyone else had a horse with this much fear and how did you manage it? She is absolutely genuine in every other way but this is so deep rooted and severe. Vet suspects even if we had a proper horse crush (which we don't) she'd battle her way out rather than be jabbed!

My mum jokingly suggested a dart gun but I did seriously wonder if regular vets use them?
 
I think it would be good idea to have a chat with your vet tbh. Shy had to have two jabs when he had colic last week, and he was wary (not like him ). Is it possible to sedate before a jab is given ?
 
She is always heavily sedated and still kicks off - it's quite bizarre. Goes from literally almost falling over from sedation to going for anyone and everyone with teeth and hooves. Breaks needle after needle. Very extreme and I don't think there are many around who switch like that. Vet will not inject now under any circumstances.
 
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I have been puzzeled by various veterinary "experts"Whilst delivering a horse to the Horspital. They produce a needle and , no **** hoseee .the horse has an absolute fit.Horses are not stupid, but they are not educated. Vets are educated but can be extremely stupid. Somewhere in the middle is some poor sap like me who will block the horses vision by putting his hand across the eye,result. Horse ceases to panick . I actualy had a veterinary nurse ask what I was doing. What the hell do they teach these people.
 
I think in simple cases there are workarounds but we have done the hand cupping thing, the leg holding, the skin pinching, the owner doing the jabs instead thing, etc, etc - trust me, this is not an ordinary case of needle fear and the vet isn't daft. This horse literally tries to kill anyone once she realises a needle is coming. You can just about get a needle in but the split second it takes to fit the meds? Not a chance. There is also no disguising the smell of the vet and I'm fairly sure the law says they have to be present to treat! This is, really, an extraordinary case.
 
I had one like this.
He had a major colic op as a yearling,and as Mike above says, the vets came at him like things possessed.
However, twitching sometimes helped, but not always. While i didn't try it, a friend has used a blindfold with much success over the years for various issues,so that maybe worth a try, seems to be more successful than cupping hands, too.
 
just thinking online here - would a pre sedation in a feed work ? Does masking the whole face work ? Would desensitising (sp) by you help ? Would music help, a horse next to the horse, even a tranquilizer gun ? A natural horsemanship person (kelly marks ?) to help you. Just thinking out of the box.
 
We blindfold ours before the vet comes anywhere near, then distract with a mint or two. He's different altogether if he doesn't see what's happening, no trouble at all instead of on his hind legs.
 
I had to deal with my own total wuss of an Irish draught the other day . Swab test up nose. Wasnt looking good for all concerned until I draped my fleece (which Bob the nota cob has long coveted) over bobs neck.Suddenly pulled it forward plunging Bob into darkness,but just kept talking to him . Job done. Vet slightly impressed. Bob not entirely impressed but all in all a no score draw.
 
My ID is as bad & it's a nightmare. I limit vaccinations to a tet every other year, and spend 2 years stressing about it! Last tet involved a tube & a half or Dormosedan gel, a gum chain, controller halter & a lot of fast footwork & bruises. It wasn't pretty & Health & Safety would not have been happy! But that won't work again, he'll have wised up to it :( . Desensitising doesn't work with him, he knows the difference. Likewise any attempts at tricking or distracting him or keeping the needle out of his sight don't fool him. Getting a twitch on is impossible & I very much doubt we'll get a gum chain on again. It's hell, but luckly my vets are very understanding.

The only glimmer of hope I can give you Nudibranch is that if he's ill enough he can be injected, it isn't easy but it can be done. I also keep Dormosedan in my first aid kit, though I wouldn't give it without talking to the vet first
 
Ever tried a twitch?
Or a complete blindfold?
Have you ever tried injecting? I've done it a few times and once you know where and how to get it in it's pretty easy!

Lastly.......... I am highly needle phobic (so I know where your horse is coming from! It's taken 7 people to get a general in me.....I was 10) but now use a numbing gel on the skin and can cope if that is on....... Can you get anything like that for your horse (obviously would need to learn it won't hurt so may not work)
 
You can buy box 100 needles and syringes. For people who have to inject horses themslves.Diffetent sizes.Worth a thought.I hear what your saying.
 
I feel your pain, bear is as bad, although his reaction is to escape rather than attack. I once got between him and the closed stable door when the vet was trying to sedate him, he crushed me so hard I was waiting for the crack of ribs. Luckily the needle went in in time and he went under.
I do worry what would happen in an emergency as you say they just snap out of sedation if a needle is near. He had a bursar on his hock drained once and as soon as the needle went in he went from a sleepy relaxed boy to a dangerous out of control looney. Not good with 16.3hh of horse.
 
Someone on my yard takes her pony to the vet hospital and they put her in the cattle crush for any jabs as she is terrible with needles. I'd try that but maybe with an oral sedative a blindfold and a twitch if he is that bad.
 
My horse is very very very vet phobic. Currently we give him oral sedation before he sees the vet and then the vet very quickly goes in and fully sedates him and keeps him topped up all the time he needs to see him. However that said we can give his annual vaccs by putting it in his chest. He doesn't expect it and its done before he knows whats going on. I probably have to send him to hospital soon so god knows what we are going to do with him them. Twitch doesn't work on him and he just explodes, I honestly don't think a blindfold would work as he would turn himself inside out in a panic. My next horse is going to be fully vetted with bloods just so I know that it will be good for the vet!!
 
My TB mare was like this, would kill the vets, she needed x-rays, surprise surprise she wouldn't be sedated, so they refused to x-ray her and referred her ... went to horsepital , they just got on and x-rayed her without sedation... (obviously their x ray machines were insured/not as valuable :p ) They also managed to inject her for one injection as they didn't believe my vets, didn't get the second injection in, she broke the nurses arm, they did tell me if she became seriously ill she probably would have to be PTS as they wouldn't be able to treat her if it required loads of injections.
 
Mike007 said:
I have been puzzeled by various veterinary "experts"Whilst delivering a horse to the Horspital. They produce a needle and , no **** hoseee .the horse has an absolute fit.Horses are not stupid, but they are not educated. Vets are educated but can be extremely stupid. Somewhere in the middle is some poor sap like me who will block the horses vision by putting his hand across the eye,result. Horse ceases to panick . I actualy had a veterinary nurse ask what I was doing. What the hell do they teach these people.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. But are vets educated? Maybe some are trained to be stupid! It is a very long time since I was at vet college but at that time virtually nothing was taught about the psychological side of the practice. I don't think things have changed much.

One vet was asking why I was pinching the pony's neck before she gave an injection. When I explained, she remarked, "Oh, I've never heard of that before!" I am sure I don't need to explain again here. But if I do, the pony accepts the pinching as it is a natural grooming process and if the needle is quickly pushed in while this is happening, the horse will probably not even notice. (Works for humans, too!).
 
I have to neck twitch mine when he is injected. He hates them, and tries to drag me and the Vet around the stable. I don't think it's the needle itself which worries him - just being touched on the neck area in general as he is ticklish and particularly sensitive on is neck. I thought about asking them to do it in his bum but think they might end up getting kicked then!
 
Mine is as bad, but I have managed over the years to get her to be OK for the half yearly injections ….

It is hard work, but if you can put the time in, you Will get there. You will have to use your imagination but these are some pointers which helped me.

1. Break the injection down into segments and work out the exact point when the horse gets stressed
- is it when the vet turns out?
- is it when she sees the needle?
- is it when the vet taps the neck?
- it is when the needle goes in?

2. OK now you have to work on finding a way to make all those elements acceptable to the horse, working particularly on the elements the horse find the most stressful.
- Get some spare syringes from the vet and treat & praise every time you bring the syringe out.
- 'Bang the neck' like the vet often does, and then treat & Praise
- Get a cocktail stick and press lightly as the injection will be on the neck and treat & praise
- When you are reasonable happy with that, get random people to pretend to be the vet and do the same.
- Build this into your daily routine until having syringes around, being banged on the neck, having cocktail sticks pressed into neck by anyone is normal!

3. Occasionally use higher level treats (i.e. polos if your horse likes them)

4. Other techniques you may like to incorporate are clicking and overshadowing, both of these can shorten the acceptance curve.

5. Does you horse carry stress and soreness in its neck anyway. Discuss with physio/body worker and also do a carrot stretch when you really open up the poll and stretch it out after every riding session to minimise this. If the neck is sore anyway, injecting it is going to be a more painful experience.

Its hard work, but I think it you can do this it helps in all sorts of other areas of the horses confidence. From having a horse the vets wouldn't inject, I now have a horse that is on the bad side of normal to inject - a huge improvement. Also, choose you vet carefully, insist on only having the one you want and don't let any student/just qualified vets near you horse unless you really trust them!
 
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Worth a try hence box 100 needles syringes.mine was same clipping loading and could smell a vet across three fields ok now. Be carefull.
 
Does the vet the time to make friends with the horse or just goes in and starts the injecting. New pony i got in dec vet came to do jabs didnt introduce himself to the pony just grapped his skin to inject piny went up, needle hanging out of its neck vet running out of the box, tried again and succeeded, so i thought ok pony doesnt like vets. When second jab came around i got a different vet and explained the story well this vet was so calm and made friends first that you wouldnt have thought it was the same pony he was so calm. The first vet was clearly scared of horses and horses can feel this so wonder if it it is to do with the vibes that the vet is giving off in the first place, in conjunction with owners nervouseness that its going to be a bad session, so horse is already fired up before vet even arrives.

Try a different vet and someone else to hold the horse and you the owner to stand around the corner.
 
My needle phobic horse was given his booster yesterday by a new vet to the practice who was fab with him. The needle had an extension line attatched to it with a chamber at the bottm for the drug, and the syrynge on the other end to push it through didnt really notice the ins and outs of it all but suffice to say he did his usual run around the stable when settled a bit the vet put the needle in and as he shot forward and round again the needle stayed in place and the line allowed the horse to do his circuit of the stable which stopped him rearing and the drug was in before he knew it, the line is then just pulled and out comes the needle which cant fall as its attached to the line in the vets hands.
It means you only need to get a shot in as opposed to needle in, attach syrynge etc all done close up and personal which with my lad was getting to dangerous.
I will deffo use this way again as it kept everyone safe.
 
Great advice. My yearling led the dentist and the vet a merry dance last time the dental was due, an hour and a half of running round the stable, vertical rearing and kicking out with front legs. On that occasion it had to be dealt with unfortunately with a chifney and a twitch however I would much rather the horse learns to accept injections as not a big deal, so we have been doing this desensitization work and we are nearly there. Vet came last week for another horse and whilst she didn't actually put the needle into the youngster's neck, she raised the vein and poked a syringe into his neck a number of times with only some very evil looks from said horse (he had his nose in a bucket of tasty treats at the same time which helped) and she said that if she had wanted to she was confident she could have got the needle in. We shall see how well we have really progressed when the next dental is due in a couple of months, but he is certainly a lot better than he was.

I hope you can get some progress with this, I know how stressful it is when you have to deal with this situation. I was recommended the blindfold as well by a number of people, it might be worth trying that. Good luck.



canteron said:
Mine is as bad, but I have managed over the years to get her to be OK for the half yearly injections ….

It is hard work, but if you can put the time in, you Will get there. You will have to use your imagination but these are some pointers which helped me.

1. Break the injection down into segments and work out the exact point when the horse gets stressed
- is it when the vet turns out?
- is it when she sees the needle?
- is it when the vet taps the neck?
- it is when the needle goes in?

2. OK now you have to work on finding a way to make all those elements acceptable to the horse, working particularly on the elements the horse find the most stressful.
- Get some spare syringes from the vet and treat & praise every time you bring the syringe out.
- 'Bang the neck' like the vet often does, and then treat & Praise
- Get a cocktail stick and press lightly as the injection will be on the neck and treat & praise
- When you are reasonable happy with that, get random people to pretend to be the vet and do the same.
- Build this into your daily routine until having syringes around, being banged on the neck, having cocktail sticks pressed into neck by anyone is normal!

3. Occasionally use higher level treats (i.e. polos if your horse likes them)

4. Other techniques you may like to incorporate are clicking and overshadowing, both of these can shorten the acceptance curve.

5. Does you horse carry stress and soreness in its neck anyway. Discuss with physio/body worker and also do a carrot stretch when you really open up the poll and stretch it out after every riding session to minimise this. If the neck is sore anyway, injecting it is going to be a more painful experience.

Its hard work, but I think it you can do this it helps in all sorts of other areas of the horses confidence. From having a horse the vets wouldn't inject, I now have a horse that is on the bad side of normal to inject - a huge improvement. Also, choose you vet carefully, insist on only having the one you want and don't let any student/just qualified vets near you horse unless you really trust them!
Click to expand...
 
Same pony of mine had the edt two days later, i thought this is going to be bad, but my edt is brilliant and again makes friends with the horse. Makes the horse step bavk then walk forward then step back then walk forward, then puts the gag on and leaves it hanging, then opens it up, as soon as he opens it up he closes it again does this a few times by the time he is doing the horses teeth the horse doesnt know any different to whats already been happening, pony was a star, wil never use the first vet again, ever.
 
Have you tried desensitizing her? I'm sure you have, but can you try nipping her skin on her neck (very gently at first, building up to a pinch - like a needle) every single day? Then get an empty syringe (ie. just no needle) and pretend its a needle on her (pinch her a little while you pretend to inject her kind of thing!). I'm sure you've tried this sort of thing?
 
I think maybe some hardcore desensitisation as canteron mentions is worth a try. Otherwise i dont see another option. To be fair to the vet hes made a good effort to be friends with her. He can do her teeth no probs, its just needles. And she did this with old owner and vets too!

Has anyone had a horse darted btw?
 
Thought I would give you an update, I used the Domosedan gel for the first time myself today. I gave him less hay overnight and no breakfast this morning, I put the gel under the tongue half hour before the farrier was due and it really knocked him for six. He has to make a drain hole which would not have been possible unsedated (last time the farrier came he wouldn't let him pick up his foot as he is in a lot of pain) So if you if you haven't tried it definitely worth a go not cheap at £40 a tube though and it does need to be accurate.
 
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