Master Saddlers - such different views !!!

[jenni999]

I had been struggling with dressage saddles for my horse who is an IDXTB with big withers and big shoulders who then dips back after the shoulder. I had been using a Master Saddler for a few years and had tried 3 different dressage saddles, all of which seemed OK initially and then just started to move. All sold and fitted as W, W/XW or XW. Having sold a K&M, an Albion and a very expensive Fairfax Gareth I decided to try another Master Saddler as I just lost a bit of faith. Turns out my original cheap-ish K&M would have been fine if she'd fitted it with a Medium gullet !!!!

So having lost hundreds of pounds over the years, I now have a perfectly fitting dressage saddle in a Medium. Who'd have thought Master Saddlers would be so different........

 

[Wheels]

What do you mean by dips behind the shoulders?

 

[flying_high]

I had been struggling with dressage saddles for my horse who is an IDXTB with big withers and big shoulders who then dips back after the shoulder. I had been using a Master Saddler for a few years and had tried 3 different dressage saddles, all of which seemed OK initially and then just started to move. All sold and fitted as W, W/XW or XW. Having sold a K&M, an Albion and a very expensive Fairfax Gareth I decided to try another Master Saddler as I just lost a bit of faith. Turns out my original cheap-ish K&M would have been fine if she'd fitted it with a Medium gullet !!!!

So having lost hundreds of pounds over the years, I now have a perfectly fitting dressage saddle in a Medium. Who'd have thought Master Saddlers would be so different........

I'd be more worried why horse had big dips, and why an ID x TB with big shoulders is medium? Sounds like muscle wastage / atrophy

My rising 20 horse who is a rangy WB with big shoulder, and high wither, and some age related hollows is still wide fitting in his saddle.

I would suspect there is a bigger secondary problem with the horse, that is more than saddle fit. As in horse has an underlying issue either a physical issue or a way of going and muscle issue.

 

[eggs]

As far as I am aware the designation of Master Saddler means that the person is trained to make and repair saddlery and is not the same as a Qualified Saddle Fitter.

I'm glad you now have a saddle that fits your horse but share the concern of others regarding the dipping behind his shoulders. I'm not sure what you mean when you say they start to move about but I read a study which concluded that a saddle slipping to one side if often a sign of subtle lameness.

 

[flying_high]

One of the things I have learnt over the last 20 years owning horses, is that you are only as good as the support team of professionals behind you, and only if they are working together. Saddles IMO are a minefield and I think views from as many of the team as possible, help to build a picture and guide what you might do.

I ask my vet, physio, bodyworker, trainer, yard manager, horse, and myself what I think about my saddle balance on an ongoing basis, as well as regular observation, and regular visits with a decent saddler. My horses are always changing a bit, and keeping a close eye on all feedback e.g. horse a bit sore at back of saddle for bodyworker etc. is vital. We then eyeball the saddle together, and I possibly phone or book saddler or adjust with pad etc. as advised.

It is too important having a fitting saddle to rely on one opinion.

 

[flying_high]

Ooh and ALWAYS buy saddles secondhand, and ideally known popular brands that are easy to sell on. Means as needs and shapes change you can always have something that works. Most second hand saddles hold their value. Most new saddles sell for about half the new cost.

I have recently bought a slightly faded, Equipe Emporio for £600, with genuine history, and serial number and no damage. Had it checked and fitted by an Equipe specialist saddler, and LOVE it as does horse. Are about £2.5k new.

 

[DirectorFury]

What do you mean by dips behind the shoulders?

I'm interested in this too OP ^. Have you got photos of his back from the side and rear (looking over rump towards neck)? It would be interesting to see them.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have no interest in someone who can make a saddle selling me one I want some who fits saddles and does it all week every week .

 

[flying_high]

I have no interest in someone who can make a saddle selling me one I want some who fits saddles and does it all week every week .

Agree but even amongst the dedicated saddlers that fit saddles day in day out there is a huge range of skill set and approach differences.

I want a saddler with a good eye who sees horse, saddle, balance, watches ridden in all 3 paces, observes views of horse, rider, and their views. It's a team effort.

 

[soloequestrian]

This is quite long but has good information on the effects of saddles http://www.balanceinternational.com/balance-design/Files/13817293.pdf

 

[sbloom]

In times past, maybe 20 years ago or more, Master Saddlers were the only people qualified to fit saddles, but it was a much smaller part of their training. If qualified more recently I would presume that there is even less fitting training as the Qualified Saddle Fitter was "invented". Then add in non-qualified fitters (who do indeed fit saddles day in and day out) who can do just as good (if not better) a job in many cases...there are many paradigms for saddle fitting, you just have to find someone who can fit your horse, who you trust, and you're happy to work with, as saddle fitting is always an ongoing process and never a magic wand.

IMO very few healthy backs are medium in width. If the dips are in behind the shoulder then it's potentially a big issue and could be muscle loss, if you mean he has a high wither and the spine drops behind he may or may not have a dropped back which would be a similar issue.

 

[jenni999]

Good grief how the majority of responders have latched onto one remark and decided my horse is lame................. My horse has fat pads and that is why there is a dip behind them. He is not lame and he has no muscle atrophy. The Master Saddler is also a qualified saddle fitter. I had forgotten why I hadn't posted for ages on here, you've reminded me why. Thanks. I'll crawl back into my hole with my horse who happens to be moving beautifully in his medium saddle and stretching down and lifting himself rather nicely.

 

[ester]

As far as I can see people were mostly asking for clarification as to what you meant, I don't see why you have taken offence at that? All the points made are valid based on the information you provided in your post.

 

[Wheels]

Good grief how the majority of responders have latched onto one remark and decided my horse is lame................. My horse has fat pads and that is why there is a dip behind them. He is not lame and he has no muscle atrophy. The Master Saddler is also a qualified saddle fitter. I had forgotten why I hadn't posted for ages on here, you've reminded me why. Thanks. I'll crawl back into my hole with my horse who happens to be moving beautifully in his medium saddle and stretching down and lifting himself rather nicely.

That's the best flounce I've seen in ages

 

[Leo Walker]

An ID x TB with big shoulders and fat pads sounds even more like it wont fit in a medium!

 

[Tiddlypom]

An ID x TB with big shoulders and fat pads sounds even more like it wont fit in a medium!

This. Even my epically wonky ID x cob with hollows behind the shoulder following in from Cushing's, bilateral hock arthritis and PSSM has never been less than a MW at her worst.

 

[DirectorFury]

An ID x TB with big shoulders and fat pads sounds even more like it wont fit in a medium!

+1!
OP please see past your annoyance on this and get another fitter out. Best case is the saddle does fit and you can crack on knowing it's not damaging your horse. Worst case the saddle isn't suitable but you've caught it before it causes more issues needing physio or vet intervention.

 

[cremedemonthe]

In times past, maybe 20 years ago or more, Master Saddlers were the only people qualified to fit saddles, but it was a much smaller part of their training. If qualified more recently I would presume that there is even less fitting training as the Qualified Saddle Fitter was "invented". Then add in non-qualified fitters (who do indeed fit saddles day in and day out) who can do just as good (if not better) a job in many cases...there are many paradigms for saddle fitting, you just have to find someone who can fit your horse, who you trust, and you're happy to work with, as saddle fitting is always an ongoing process and never a magic wand.

IMO very few healthy backs are medium in width. If the dips are in behind the shoulder then it's potentially a big issue and could be muscle loss, if you mean he has a high wither and the spine drops behind he may or may not have a dropped back which would be a similar issue.

THIS^^^^^
I'm a traditionally trained Saddler, trained in 1987-88 which means I was trained to make, design, repair and fit saddles, harness, bridles, lorinery, rugs etc the old way.
I have no master saddler qualifications nor do I want any. As Sbloom has said there are non qualified saddle fitters who do a better job in a lot of cases than the so called qualified fitters. I have seen such awful work by some of their members over the last 30 odd years for me to never want anything to do with the SMS, having said that there are some incredibly good saddle fitters within the SMS too. It's not all, just some, who spoil it for the good ones.
Oz

 

[C1airey]

Out of interest, how much time has elapsed between the original K&M and the one that has just been fitted with a medium gullet?

 

[Fiona]

I've just had a saddle fitting for my 6yo Connie, and the saddles that fitted him best were a K&M with a medium plate, and a Santa Cruz medium jump saddle.

I was surprised the that pony wasn't a MW fit, but there you are he wasn't...

Fiona

 

[Orangehorse]

My horse has big shoulders and I have a saddle with an Owen panel - the real "old fashioned" saddle with short panels. Some of the newer, full panelled saddles just can't fit a big shouldered horse.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I also fail to see how such a horse will fit into a medium gullet my 15h Arab is in an xwide but hey ho.

 

[ester]

TBF the Arabs I’ve know have always been wide!

Frank only takes a MW once he’d lost his additional weight. You’d think him wider to look at him as he’s pretty square and welsh so I think it’s hard to generalise.

 

[Ellietotz]

My plump Arab X is in a medium stamped saddle with no adjustments to the width but would be in a Wide bar if it was a K&M.

 

[Red-1]

I have no interest in someone who can make a saddle selling me one I want some who fits saddles and does it all week every week .

I agree that I want someone skilled in their job, but with my new horse I went to a saddle fitter who sells an awful lot, is out in the van fitting day in day out, and the saddle did not suit. No matter, he took it back, but the saddle I got that did fit was a second hand one that I found locally that was actually made by a local lady/firm. The saddle was *almost* right, as in the correct shape tree, but needed the flocking adjusted. I called the saddle's maker out to do the work.


She was great. Looked at the horse and any asymmetry, me and any asymmetry, how the saddle fitted, how we went under saddle, the lot. Proper expert who then took the saddle away, stripped all flocking out to have a smooth result, and came back to tweak the result.


So, I also would not dis a saddle maker. You just need someone passionate about the job and skilled. They do not have to be qualified to be good, but if they are qualified they could still be great.

With my previous horse, he did benefit from an Owen panel. They are great for horses with big shoulders, but need careful making to give enough support to the rider as the top flap can bend away as they are bigger than the under pad.

My current second hand saddle has a dressage under panel and a more GP top flap. She is also a ID x TB and in a M/W.


OP, I don't know why you are upset at the responses? You set a problem, people have given their experience. I too have found that horses that dip away behind the shoulders can have a problem. Sometimes it does not present for a while afterwards as horses are ace at covering up issues. Indeed, one poster on here described a horse who I thought had a physical issue, they were cross that I suggested it at the time, did not accept it. The horse is now off work with an issue, not long after. Horses will keep going even when they hurt, they do that so they are not hunted because they look weak. All we can go on is that they have distortions in how musculature and behaviour change from what is 'normal'.

 

[ester]

And some just have the right feel! My latest saddler mostly makes stuff for film work as that’s more fun apparently but he could put a saddle on a horse and just ‘know’ what needed doing. Never met anyone quite like him!

 

[pennyturner]

It's too easy to assume that a 'big' horse is wide. Not necessarily the case. I have only one XW - he's 12hh! In fact, a saddle which we rejected for him as too narrow fits our chunky section D just nicely... and he's so wide that we use a half-pad under the saddle to reduce the distance between the flaps for the comfort of the rider