Messing inside kennel

[eatmyshorts]

We got a new dog just over a month ago - 3years old, been kennelled all her life. She is messing & wetting inside her kennel (actually inside on the straw within the kennel, i don't mean just in the run area). Any ideas how to discourage her from doing this? My other dogs have never been dirty in their kennels & enjoy having their lovely deep straw beds fluffed up every morning. She is also chewing her kennel roof all along the edge - any suggestions for anything to can do/attach to stop this? She seems pretty destructive in general & has wrecked quite a few things already. I'm hoping once she's fit enough to be in proper work she'll settle down.

 

[Clodagh]

Alec Swan on here suggested lowering the roof so they couldn't get into position to mess? Which seems to make sense.
As for the chewing, does she have other things available to chew? That might help, and paint something disgusting on the chewed bit?

 

[eatmyshorts]

Alec Swan on here suggested lowering the roof so they couldn't get into position to mess? Which seems to make sense.
As for the chewing, does she have other things available to chew? That might help, and paint something disgusting on the chewed bit?

Not sure i can lower the roof (as she shares with another much bigger dog) although that theory does totally make sense. I might be able to move her into a run with a smaller kennel tho, where that might work. She doesn't have anything to chew - primarily because she has chewed everything she can, including the water bucket, the chicken wire which was round the bottom of the run to keep pups in, the big wooden reels for them to sit on (these weren't just chewed but appeared to explode!) etc etc. I've used bitter apple spray to stop chewers before, although i'm not sure how it will work on a tarred roof. I was thinking more maybe some sort of metal strips around the edges?

 

[Clodagh]

Yes, metal strips should work, or her teeth will fall out!!!
Could she have a kong to chew?

 

[splashgirl45]

of she is a serious chewer why not get some antlers. they are quite pricey but last a long time.. she may just be stressed by the move and is going inside as she feels more secure in there. maybe she had another type of bedding inside the kennel and straw in the run so she thinks straw is the place to go...

 

[AmyMay]

How long is she kenneled for? How much exercise does she get? Does she have any toys?

I second the antlers.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Thanks for your input, i'll try to respond one at a time. We do have kongs & antlers but i preferred not to leave the dogs with them unsupervised ... they're unlikely to cause a problem physically & the dogs are probaby unlikely to fight, but you never know. Perhaps when they are more well established as a pack i may be able to leave them with stuffed, frozen kings ... i have done that in the past. But no toys as i generally don't like to leave them alone with anything that may cause them harm. I'm also trying to think of something i can put in for them to climb up on & sit on as they love that, but as i mentioned she completely destroyed (in one session) the big wood & metal cable reels i had in for them. They also have plastic paddling pools in each run throughout the Summer - she'd started chewing that too. She doesn't chew anything when i'm around - she had her first trip away in our caravan this week, wasn't crated (she is crated at night when the dogs come into the house), & was good as gold - no chewing (although she started to dig at the carpet a couple of times but stopped as soon as told not to), no messing (she wasn't housetrained when she arrived, but has done really well in the house, we've only had maybe 3 or 4 accidents). Previously at her old home, i believe she was bedded on straw, the runs were concrete with no straw down, & the kennels were concrete, so i don't think she had anything she could chew. She was in a group of 3 dogs, as she is now. The dogs aren't kennelled an awful lot with us ... maybe an average 4 or 5 hours a day ... some days not at all .. some days a bit more. My hubby & i don't always work the same shifts & they are generally with us in the house or out walking or training when we are around. She's quiet when kennelled & doesn't howl. She gets plenty of exercise but not as much as she will ultimately as she was pretty unfit when she arrived so we have been building her up. She is a sled dog so as well as general walks (ie. running around the fields) she is currently working in harness running 5km three times a week (& since working in harness uses about 4 times as much energy as just free running, you could say she's doing more like 20km in each session!). We've only just built up to that level of in-harness work, so once she's settled into that routine more (& it may increase as racing season progresses) i'm hoping she'll be more tired & settle down a bit. In the house initially she wasn't settled & would pace round for several hours ... as i imagine she may have done in a kennel ... but now she lies down or goes into her open crate within a few minutes & falls asleep. The rest of my pack are pretty chilled out & in a good routine so that's helped her a lot i think. Although I don't think they are impressed by her messing in & wrecking their kennel tho!

 

[twiggy2]

Its sounds like separation anxiety to me or some other stress that she is feeling when she is in the kennel.

Can you put her in a single kennel next to the others.
I have previously worked with a dog doing exactly the same as yours and he was toileting in the kennel because he found the other dog intimidating so would only come out of the kennel if people were about-the other dog was a strong character but not nasty, the pooping dog was just a bit of a wuss and found it all a bit scary. The other thing to check is that nothing is peeing on the straw before it is used as bedding-I have had that to, a usually clean dog peeing on beds, it turned out the fox was peeing on it in storage.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Sounds like a stress thing TBH, combined with the pacing and not chewing when accompanied.

 

[eatmyshorts]

I have considered a single kennel, but as she's lived with other dogs all her life i don't think it'd be fair to her. It would be a lot easier for me because i'd then only need to muck out one small kennel daily - before she arrived i only needed to fluff up the bed daily & change the straw every week or two when it started to break down as it was always clean. The dogs she is in with are purposely the quiet, non dominant, good natured ones, so i don't think she is afraid of them at all. She bounces around them & bumps into them - she has very little spacial awareness (i guess you could call that manners, although she is very sweet). Good point about something else peeing on it, although i'm pretty sure that's not the case. I honestly suspect the messing is just habit as opposed to stress ... she was really smelly when she arrived so i think it was just the done thing ... although she is a very needy little soul & wants attention all the time, but i can't be with her 24/7 & she's not had that in the past either, so is used to being just with other dogs.

 

[twiggy2]

All of that makes sense but does not take into account that she has had a big change in her life that may have just 'taken the wind out of her sails'?
One of the biggest changes is that she is spending more time with you by being in the house, at times of change and increased stress dogs can become more 'needy' and clingy increasing the likelihood of separation anxiety.
How many dogs is she in with?
I have a bitch on trail here and she spent the first 6 days kennelled next to but exercised with all the existing dogs, we were lucky that we were working away so it was even easier as the existing dogs had a hard week of work and it was neutral ground.

To be honest 5k three times per week for a working dog is not a lot in my book, it may be worth trying to give her more mental stimulation and possibly not having her in the house at all at least then she will know exactly what to expect next rather than the gaol posts keep moving.
I appreciate many dogs can and do cope with in and out living fine (some of mine do) she has had a lot of change and some stability to start may help?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Nobody likes to think their dog is stressed, but they don't feel stress the same way as we do. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is. As I said on the other post, every dog I've met with this problem has some sort of nerve issue.

You've just said she's not stressed on one hand and is very needy on the other.

Dogs who chew like that and mess in their own beds are trying to tell us something.

Again I would agree with Twiggy that very firm lines and boundaries need to be drawn so that she is clear about everything.

 

[eatmyshorts]

All of that makes sense but does not take into account that she has had a big change in her life that may have just 'taken the wind out of her sails'?
One of the biggest changes is that she is spending more time with you by being in the house, at times of change and increased stress dogs can become more 'needy' and clingy increasing the likelihood of separation anxiety.
How many dogs is she in with?
I have a bitch on trail here and she spent the first 6 days kennelled next to but exercised with all the existing dogs, we were lucky that we were working away so it was even easier as the existing dogs had a hard week of work and it was neutral ground.

To be honest 5k three times per week for a working dog is not a lot in my book, it may be worth trying to give her more mental stimulation and possibly not having her in the house at all at least then she will know exactly what to expect next rather than the gaol posts keep moving.
I appreciate many dogs can and do cope with in and out living fine (some of mine do) she has had a lot of change and some stability to start may help?

She has indeed had a big change, which is why i'm trying to make it as easy as possible for her to adjust. Perhaps i didn't explain but she's always been needy, it's her nature, & was what i was told by her previous owner before she even arrived. She isn't more needy now than she was then. She's in a group of 3, which is the same size she came from - although she has come from a kennel of about 40 dogs to a much smaller one - but i think (as does her previous owner) that's a good thing for her as she will get more of the 1 to 1 attention she craves. She gets on well with all the other dogs. 5km (working in harness, which uses up a lot more energy than free running) is only part of her exercise - she also gets daily runs around fields, training on lead etc. Her exercise will increase as her fitness does, & will also include racing weekends. My dogs are extremely fit on the level of exercise they get, & they also get mental stimulation such as clicker training (although i haven't done any clicker with her yet so that may be an idea to settle her busy mind?). I don't think the goal posts keep moving TBH - they have moved once certainly as she has a new home & lifestyle. But if i didn't have her in the house at all, then i'd have to change them again as ultimately i'd have to then change the goal posts as she's not going to be permanently kennelled, so i'm not sure that would help her long term? In all other aspects she's settled & adjusted really well.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Nobody likes to think their dog is stressed, but they don't feel stress the same way as we do. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is. As I said on the other post, every dog I've met with this problem has some sort of nerve issue.

You've just said she's not stressed on one hand and is very needy on the other.

Dogs who chew like that and mess in their own beds are trying to tell us something.

Again I would agree with Twiggy that very firm lines and boundaries need to be drawn so that she is clear about everything.

She's always been very needy, she's a constant attention seeker, & i was advised of this before she even arrived, so yes although she may be a bit stressed at being in a new home/environment, i'm not sure the needy goes hand in hand with stressed - it's just her temperament. These types of dogs can be quite nervy in general, they are bred to run & for speed, that seems to be a main priority ... which is why i think once she's running more she'll be less stressed, but i had to get a balance of her being fit enough to run first, which is why i've been building it up since she arrived. The chewy is possibly excess energy/stress so as her exercise increases may resolve itself. What kind of clear lines & boundaries can i set in these cases? Can you give me specific examples of what you would suggest? With messing in her kennel, if she's being doing it all her life & i just accept it, the other dogs have to be in a smelly kennel (ok only for a few hours, but still unpleasant enough). I don't really want to kennel her separately because it's not what she's used to & i don't think it's fair. I think the lowered roof option is a really good suggestion (& i do have a smaller kennel which still fit 3 dogs) as it will hopefully get her into the habit of toileting outside, but still allow her to have company.

Thanks for all your input everyone, it's much appreciated.

 

[CorvusCorax]

You've just explained it well. Humans don't consider training a self soiler out of it to be 'fair'.
But I don't consider ambiguity 'fair' for dogs like this.
And it's not fair for her or the others to be sitting in mess.

Dear dog:
This is where you sleep
This is where you toilet
This is where you exercise
All things in life come from me and only when I say so.
It does seem harsh but it is clear and clarity is the best thing for dogs.

The fast, flashy and stylish dogs are always on the edge of nerve. That's the gamble you take. I have one myself.

 

[eatmyshorts]

You've just explained it well. Humans don't consider training a self soiler out of it to be 'fair'.
But I don't consider ambiguity 'fair' for dogs like this.
And it's not fair for her or the others to be sitting in mess.

Dear dog:
This is where you sleep
This is where you toilet
This is where you exercise
All things in life come from me and only when I say so.
It does seem harsh but it is clear and clarity is the best thing for dogs.

The fast, flashy and stylish dogs are always on the edge of nerve. That's the gamble you take. I have one myself.

I think you have misread ... what I said was that I don’t consider it fair to kennel a dog alone who has been kennelled with others all her life. Nothing about it being unfair to train her out of this & on the contrary, I came on asking for specific advice on how to do this. I’m pretty clear on boundaries & what I expect from & ask of my dogs. You are right that these dogs bred more or less solely for speed may be more difficult, because sometimes it would appear that the need for speed in the breeding has become more important than a steady temperament. She’s not the only one I own, but is the only dog (of this type) I’ve not had from a pup & therefore been able to train from the start & I think it’s fair to say it’s harder to train an older dog already set in it’s ways. When you say you have one yourself, do you mean the same type?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wouldn't see it as unfair to kennel her alone at all. She may be happier to be alone and it might make it easier to understand what is required of her one on one. It won't hurt to try it. But my 'way' would be very rigid as above and not everyone would be prepared to do it.

I don't have the same type but I have a dog bred for sport from lines known for speed, energy, output, for performance. The flipside is usually always a little weakness in nerve, which can manifest itself in different ways, like noise, unusual toileting, etc.

 

[Moobli]

Some dogs are just dirty beggars. We have one that will toilet in his bed and sleep on the pallet in his run. He was brought up in the house as a pup and was clean until he reached maturity when he started to scent mark so out he went. He has got better as he has matured and is much cleaner now than he once was.

I would try kennelling her alone - as it isn't really fair on your clean dogs to have to share a mucky bed, but training her to toilet outwith her sleeping area will be a tricky one as I am assuming she is kennelled when you aren't there? Is there any way she could be crated inside while you are out (if she is clean in her crate) and try puppy house training - right back to basics. If she learns to be clean in the house/her crate then hopefully it might transfer to outdoors.

If you are leaving her 5 hours a day and she is chewing through boredom I would provide her with legitimate chew things. Our kennel dogs regularly get raw bones and sheep/tup horns. Of course nothing in life is entirely risk-free, but we have never had a problem. You are probably correct in that once she gets plenty of work the pacing/chewing behaviours will disappear.

 

[yhanni]

As regards her bed requirements, a Bully breeder I know has big car tyres for all his boy Bullies - they have a piece of vet bed in them and seem to find them comfortable .... and don't seem to chew them.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Some dogs are just dirty beggars. We have one that will toilet in his bed and sleep on the pallet in his run. He was brought up in the house as a pup and was clean until he reached maturity when he started to scent mark so out he went. He has got better as he has matured and is much cleaner now than he once was.

I would try kennelling her alone - as it isn't really fair on your clean dogs to have to share a mucky bed, but training her to toilet outwith her sleeping area will be a tricky one as I am assuming she is kennelled when you aren't there? Is there any way she could be crated inside while you are out (if she is clean in her crate) and try puppy house training - right back to basics. If she learns to be clean in the house/her crate then hopefully it might transfer to outdoors.

If you are leaving her 5 hours a day and she is chewing through boredom I would provide her with legitimate chew things. Our kennel dogs regularly get raw bones and sheep/tup horns. Of course nothing in life is entirely risk-free, but we have never had a problem. You are probably correct in that once she gets plenty of work the pacing/chewing behaviours will disappear.

Thanks - your first sentence is probably the answer. I'm going to move her (with her current kennel mates) into a kennel with a lower roof, so hopefully is less comfortable to squat & will encourage her to go outside. If that doesn't work i guess i may have to consider kennelling her alone. Yes, training her out of it would be difficult as she's only kennelled when we aren't there - we have house trained her inside without too much trouble, but that's a new type of environment, whereas a kennel is where she's always lived & she's just doing what she's always done. She is clean in her crate now (not at first) overnight but i would rather she was outside with the others while we aren't there, as opposed to being locked inside on her own.

In terms of chewing, we feed raw, but i'm always reluctant to leave the dogs alone with bones as i have had an instance where one dog got a piece of bone wedged across the roof of her mouth & was very distressed & panicky about it - luckily i was there & able to help her, but i think she'd have injured herself if i hadn't been. I know that's just a one off, but it's given me the fear! I do have some buffalo horns so those or stuffed frozen Kongs may be an option although because she's fairly new i'd have to be certain they wouldn't fight over them. Meantime i've ordered metal strips to put along the edges of the kennels to stop any more damage.

 

[eatmyshorts]

As regards her bed requirements, a Bully breeder I know has big car tyres for all his boy Bullies - they have a piece of vet bed in them and seem to find them comfortable .... and don't seem to chew them.

Thanks for that - Funny you should mention tyres - We have car tyres around their water bucket & she hasn't chewed them at all - i was actually thinking about tyres to replace the now extinct cable reels as something for them to jump up & sit on, although i've not worked out what to use as a platform that can't be chewed.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Three months down the line & i thought id' update you & say thanks for all your suggestions! I kept her in a group of three dogs, putting them into the run with the kennel with a lower roof, adding metal strips to the edges so she couldn't chew it. The metal strips worked but as for the lower roof - she just squatted lower! I then set up an adjoining run, with a smaller (single dog sized) metal kennel inside, leaving the gate between the two runs open so she could get used to it for a while before i would need to move her into it on her own. So, what happened? She stop messing in the main kennel & began using the small metal kennel as a toilet! And actually, that's been a pretty good solution! It means she can still sleep with the others, in a clean bed which i can fluff up daily, while i just clean out her "toilet" regularly. She's really settled down now, stopped pacing, stopped chewing (i think someone who suggested separation anxiety wasn't far off the mark because we had a few occasions of exploding cushions when we left her alone .. although with other dogs .. for even just a five minutes in the house), she is also fitter & in harder work now (& has raced her first race in our team, being a little star), & seems really content & happy.

 

[vallin]

I think we need pictures

 

[eatmyshorts]

I'll try to remember to post some later when i'm home