MICROCHIPPING

Cortez

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Things are certainly different over there then; here horses are routinely scanned before slaughter, and as I mentioned above I believe that any stray horse without a chip is destroyed. Horse theft is rare here, and I would imagine that is partly explained by the regulations re slaughter.
 
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The lack of Enforcement is one of the biggest arguments about Microchipping - however we have never been in the position that we are in now to, if not Enforce, but to ask questions as to why not - which we were not in before. Its a really good position, if only Compliance could be driven up, which it could be with Public Support. Of course PIOs don't want us to work with Chips as they won't get their £15 a time updating fees - so are drag, drag, dragging their feet at every opportunity.
 

paddy555

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It sounds as if your vets are rather lax. The "policing" of both passports and microchips is also down to the owners themselves in that ultimately it is their responsibility to make sure the information is recorded and registered. The argument that responsible people shouldn't be responsible because others are not is quite bizarre.
no my vets are good where it matters ie in keeping my horses well treated. It is not a bizarre argument. If everyone doesn't comply it is pointless. I have had several horses PTS and no one has asked for a passport. In most of those cases the horse (older ones) was seriously ill with colic. The vet arrived and was told PTS immediately. There was not time, unless we increased the horses suffering by not getting it PTS immediately, for the vet to look at the passport, get the scanner and check if it was chipped.

Can you give me one benefit to my horses of chipping the older ones? If there was I would do it but I am at a loss to think of one. Is there one benefit to the horse population at large (UK). No, because some will still flout the law and there will still be unidentified equines. Those abandoned unidentified equines are the ones causing the problems.

"if only compliance could be driven up which it could be with public support"

how is that going to happen? what are you expecting the public to do? they don't know if a horse is chipped and most don't even care. We do not have enough resources in this country to deal with real offences. All guns are licensed except of course the ones that aren't. We are unable to even manage to get those under control a far more serious worry than if an old horse has a chip or not.

To me this is simply paperwork, cost and bureaucracy for nothing.
 
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Interesting reading the above.
Over a year ago, the vet practice I use started checking (foc) chips to passports on routine visits to yards. This was noted on the next invoice to show pony A was scanned for microchip, chip matched passport, signed out of good chain.
Then when a client got a new horse this would also have same check done (I did with B Fuzzy when she arrived the 1st time in June, when having her flu vacc).
Vets also offered discount to put in chip if clients didnt have one, if having routine visit.

On speaking to lovely head of admin the other day, she said it's really made a huge difference to their records as they have made it such a routine thing that its virtually 100% for chips and sign out.
 

Cortez

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Paddy555, large administrative systems only work if everyone complies with them, otherwise they are ineffective. I have had horses from Spain, Portugal, Holland, Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, etc., all of them have been microchipped and passported making them instantly identifiable and traceable, just like cars, guns, international shipping, etc. What I am "expecting the public to do" is comply with the regulations in order to make the system work; by not doing so you are contributing to the inefficiencies of which you are complaining.
 
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To me this is simply paperwork, cost and bureaucracy for nothing.
Unfortunately our Horse Market is on its arse - anything worth less than £5K is more or less worth nothing. No one has any clue how many horses there are in the UK let alone how many are illegal with no paperwork at all. Lots of people believe that if you sign your horse out, it is signed out for life, it is not and will appear on the CED as Included in the Food Chain - if your Vet has signed out and you have not sent it back to your PIO to update, it will appear on the CED as Included in the Food Chain. Chips would actually reduce paperwork, costs and improve the Data that bureaucracy requires.
 

meleeka

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Paddy555, large administrative systems only work if everyone complies with them, otherwise they are ineffective. I have had horses from Spain, Portugal, Holland, Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, etc., all of them have been microchipped and passported making them instantly identifiable and traceable, just like cars, guns, international shipping, etc. What I am "expecting the public to do" is comply with the regulations in order to make the system work; by not doing so you are contributing to the inefficiencies of which you are complaining.
I agree with you. I’d love nothing more than to hear of a prosecution of somebody that fly grazes for non compliance. Who’s going to prosecute though? There was talk of local authorities being able to fine people and that they’d get to keep the revenue generated. That would be good but given there aren’t nearly enough Animal Welfare Officers due to cutbacks that isn’t going to work either. It’s all very well spending money on making laws, but it’s never going to work all the time there’s no funds available to enforce them (there wasn’t before so I don’t know how they think this new law is going to help anything!)
 
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Of course local authorities do not give a rats arse about illegal horses when they are so overstretched, however, Police Forces and Councils that spend thousands on loose and flygrazed horses, are now more aware and can be made more aware of, the Legislation. It can also be used to persuade Councils and LandOwners to use Welfare Leases where every horse on their land is identified. And as mentioned previously, not that I'm a fan of anything Europe, Brexit etc we lag behind in our Equine ID Systems when we should be world class like our horses.
 

paddy555

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Paddy555, large administrative systems only work if everyone complies with them, otherwise they are ineffective. I have had horses from Spain, Portugal, Holland, Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, etc., all of them have been microchipped and passported making them instantly identifiable and traceable, just like cars, guns, international shipping, etc. What I am "expecting the public to do" is comply with the regulations in order to make the system work; by not doing so you are contributing to the inefficiencies of which you are complaining.
not so, they are passported which is perfectly compliant ATM, I also expect the public to comply with regs and not break the law. The problem is that they simply don't, not only in relation to horses but to most things. Do you have travellers in Ireland? Are ALL of their horses (younger ones) chipped? it would really surprise me if they were. If so how do the authorities manage it? perhaps the UK could then learn from their dealings with traveller non compliance.

jofwigby, why do we need to know how many horses there are in the UK, legal or otherwise? unless there is 100% compliance with a horse reg system we will never know. Will there be 100% compliance, no. Can it ever be enforced to that degree, no.

ps
"anything worth less than £5K is more or less worth nothing" whether they agree with chips or not I'm sure some people will delighted with your valuation of their much loved horse! I certainly am. The minute that over £5k horse goes lame or gets some other health problem he is also worth probably nothing.
 

hellfire

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None of mine are microchipped but I will get them done. It's always worried me in a strange way as my friends horse was chipped and stolen! Never found. Unfortunately some horse thieves cut them out!! The thought of that actually put me off years ago when I was going to get them done. Horrible thought. I had a horse thief gang in the area years ago worried me sick as two of mine were tagged to be taken. I actually have a sign saying 'We are microchipped and branded' not that they are. I know it's not all about theft but it's a part of it.
 

Cortez

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I'm not the government so I have no idea if travelers' horses are chipped or not; I'd imagine some are, most not - straying horses are impounded, unclaimed, unchipped horses are (I think) euthanised. We don't seem to have quite the same problem with roving bands of coloured cobs that the UK does nowadays (see straying info above), but that may very well be because of our system of recording and dealing with things.

Knowing how many horses there are is distinctly useful in the advent of a disease outbreak, also as a basis to establish industry planning, access to grant funding, etc., as is done here - but the horse industry is precisely that in Ireland, and the horse is designated as an agricultural animal whereas I think it is not in the UK, is that correct?
 

meleeka

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Knowing how many horses there are is distinctly useful in the advent of a disease outbreak, also as a basis to establish industry planning, access to grant funding, etc., as is done here - but the horse industry is precisely that in Ireland, and the horse is designated as an agricultural animal whereas I think it is not in the UK, is that correct?
Yes that’s correct. Horses are stuck somewhere in the middle of agricultural and pets. They arent really classified as anything other than ‘leisure’. That may be part of the problem as I’ve never heard of a cow being fly grazed 😂
 

hellfire

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I'm not the government so I have no idea if travelers' horses are chipped or not; I'd imagine some are, most not - straying horses are impounded, unclaimed, unchipped horses are (I think) euthanised. We don't seem to have quite the same problem with roving bands of coloured cobs that the UK does nowadays (see straying info above), but that may very well be because of our system of recording and dealing with things.

Knowing how many horses there are is distinctly useful in the advent of a disease outbreak, also as a basis to establish industry planning, access to grant funding, etc., as is done here - but the horse industry is precisely that in Ireland, and the horse is designated as an agricultural animal whereas I think it is not in the UK, is that correct?
Didnt realise they were under that class in Ireland. Not so in the UK. Out of curiosity do you have to have all livestock chipped then? I have passports and tags for the cattle. I wonder if chipping will come about with them next.
 

Cortez

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Didnt realise they were under that class in Ireland. Not so in the UK. Out of curiosity do you have to have all livestock chipped then? I have passports and tags for the cattle. I wonder if chipping will come about with them next.
Dunno, sorry - I havn't had cattle or sheep for a long while.
 

w1bbler

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2 of ours are chipped, but i have no idea how the chip gets registered to me - is it automatic when you change owner details with the passport agency ( horse pasport agency & leisure horse Ireland) otherwise how do I sort it?
When does it become compulsory to chip, have a very elderly horse that's probably on borrowed time & can't see the point spending money on her for something that is no benefit to her.
 

PeterNatt

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There will be one central database which records your passport and the micro-chip number code within your horse. The advantage being that if your horse strays or gets stolen that it is possible to identify the owner from the micro-chip. I also advocate freeze marking as anyone can easily read a freeze mark, When horses are stolen it is very traumatic for the owners so any additional marking will be of benefit.
 
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I have one that is chipped, he was born after it became compulsory, the other is passported and freeze marked, but not chipped. He is extremely vet phobic, vaccinations are a nightmare, I now have one vet who can and I pay a call out charge to have her, rather than use the free day. Even then it's a case of don't let him see it, feed lots of treats chat and stab in chest. The thought of trying to microchip him fills me with horror, sedation is impossible. We have already decided if anything happens, where he needs constant vet attention we only have one choice sadly. He isn't ridden and doesn't leave the yard, so I'm passing on chipping him, but if I could I would.
 

meleeka

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Didnt realise they were under that class in Ireland. Not so in the UK. Out of curiosity do you have to have all livestock chipped then? I have passports and tags for the cattle. I wonder if chipping will come about with them next.
It’s probably the same as here where all farm animals have to be identifiable by a mark or ear tag. It’s illegal to move livestock without notifying Defra or having them visibly identified. Don’t think many of us would support ear tags for horses.
 

Lindylouanne

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DP is a solid colour with absolutely no distinguishing marks so he is freeze marked, chipped and passported. I like to cover all bases 😁 When I bought B he wasn't chipped even though he had been in a professional showing home so I had it done straight away. I can't imagine why people wouldn't want to have it done. It isn't expensive and takes seconds to do.
 

laura_nash

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straying horses are impounded, unclaimed, unchipped horses are (I think) euthanised...
My understanding from HHO (the charity I got my pony from) is that unchipped horses are considered not owned (as proof of identity is impossible). Whether they are then PTS, sold at auction or given to a charity depends on the policy of the specific pound and the details of the horse. Either way, if you turn up claiming its your much-loved family pet its tough luck. This was a few years ago now, but she told me my pony's gentle temperament was the only reason he was still alive as the specific pound who took him had a policy of PTS for unchipped, entire adult males but made an exception for him. She also showed me two recent rescues (in very poor condition) whose microchips were issued by another pound, not linked to a charity, prior to sale a year earlier.

.. but the horse industry is precisely that in Ireland, and the horse is designated as an agricultural animal whereas I think it is not in the UK, is that correct?
Yes, when I looked into moving to Ireland I was very pleased to find this. No nonsense about planning change of use to convert a cattle barn to stables or put up a few jumps in a sheep field.

On the flip side in order to adopt my pony I had to get an Equine Premises Number for our house, and got a mild ticking off for not already having one since I'd already bought my cob over from the UK. I don't believe this is required in the UK (though I never had a horse at home there so not completely sure). As part of the registration I had to undertake to keep a record of all horses kept at the premises at any point, including dates and microchip numbers, that can be requested at any time (not exactly onerous for me). I have recently been looking into getting a herd number for some sheep and was told I already had one (the EPN) and just need to get it "converted" to cover sheep.

I can't imagine why people wouldn't want to have it done. It isn't expensive and takes seconds to do.
Agreed, I got my cob microchipped the day I got him (in the UK some years ago). Given the low cost, zero risk, and potential benefit in case of straying / theft it seems like a "no brainer" for a responsible owner even before the law change. Unless there is some specific reason not to in an old horse that never travels, such as severe vet / needle phobia, or you have a load of unhandled horses on a hill somewhere, I can't see why you wouldn't just do it.
 

laura_nash

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Didnt realise they were under that class in Ireland. Not so in the UK. Out of curiosity do you have to have all livestock chipped then? I have passports and tags for the cattle. I wonder if chipping will come about with them next.
No, cattle have tags as in the UK (I've been looking into cattle and sheep regs). I guess the point is to make them identifiable and tags are fine for cattle, we use microchips for horses because (as someone mentioned) no-one is very keen to ear tag horses. Freezemarking doesn't seem to be very common here (not sure if that is just the area I am in or maybe due to the microchips being required and checked more).
 

ILuvCowparsely

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Hi. I considered freezemarking but was told that it doesn't show up on grey coats & both my ponies are grey, almost white! I asked the farrier about hoof branding. He said he would do it but the brand disappears as the hoof grows so it has to be done regularly (every 9-12 months) so would be costly. I decided that neither of those methods were suitable.
1. For one thing grey horses are marked with bald numbers, so the brands are held on longer and providing you clip the square in the winter it show up well. I have had 3 greys and current mare branded with my late mares number
2. hoof brands cost for the initial brands and then your farrier will update them when he comes to trim, as he does mine usually farriers do not charge for re branding when it grows out. . You either buy or suggest your yard buys them for livery owners or you buy your own postcode to your house. http://www.equibrand.co.uk/
 
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