Mid-sold pony PLEASE HELP!

[4kids2dogs1pony]

Do I have any legal comeback in this situation? Bought a pony two weeks ago. Sold as a sound but unfit pony for mother/daughter PC share. Pony lame after a couple of days, vet gave rest and pain relief for a week with no improvement. Now has said it’s a long term issue which has been going on for enough time to cause muscle wastage on hind quarters. Needs further testing and treatment if possible. Insurance won’t cover as within exclusion period and pre existing anyway. Didn’t get vetted as I was told she had been vetted just that week and had only failed because of a ‘stiff’ leg put down to just coming back into work. Stupidly put my trust in them, or may be that’s what they actually believed. Now they won’t take pony back and refund as they said she wasn’t lame with them.

 

[Snowfilly]

Dealer or private owner?

Did you not see the muscle wastage when viewing?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

You do have rights but exercising them is not easy. I assume this is a private seller. They are not allowed to KNOWINGLY miss-describe a pony. So you would need to prove that they knew the pony was lame at the time of the sale.

If you are a member of the BHS you can ring their legal help line.

In the meantime, keep all written documentation: texts, messages, the original ad. See if you can stalk them on social media. Some people are very casual! So there may be posts about lameness or being off work. Ask for the vet report from the failed vetting. I would definitely get the legal ball rolling today. You want to send back for a full refund on the basis of mis-selling.

Tbh it partly depends on whether these are pros at scamming in which case they know all the tricks in the book. Or just private sellers chancing their arm. And on how assertive you are.

Someone on our yard miss-sold a horse. She sent it to a sales livery who sent it back as lame, So she sent it to another dodgier sales livery wrongly thinking it was not her responsibility if she wasn't the seller. The new owners basically dropped the pony back on the yard unannounced a few days later and followed up with a solictor's letter. She paid them back. Good luck.

 

[SusieT]

You bought a horse who had failed a vetting with a stiff leg and now it is lame- sorry you have no come back. I'm afraid you have been conned and should have had a vetting. Even if a dealer he has already told you it has a 'stiff leg' which could be interpretated as lame!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yes your biggest problem is the horse failed the vet and they told you that. They may claim (or believe) it was just stiffness and you will need to demonstrate that they knew there was a lameness issue.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think you will struggle because you were told the pony was stiff and that it had passed a vetting, the stiff comment would have been a red flag for me, if these were honest decent sellers they would have the pony back sounds like they were aware of issues beforehand and wanted shot of it.

Thing is a lot of people that view horses can't always see subtle lameness and sellers often rely on that fact hence why you take a very experienced horse person with you and get it vetted.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Oh dear. I agree with others, you are unlikely to have any come-back.

You bought the pony having been told it had already failed a vetting and being given the reason as to exactly why this was. You already knew this but went ahead with the purchase anyway.

Sorry but don't think you have any redress in the circumstances you describe; seller was up-front and told you why it had failed the vetting so don't think you can say there is any lack of transparency on their part.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Well it depends. OP is suggesting sellers knew horse had long term lameness issue. The OP needs to prove that assertion. If they can prove the sellers knew this was untrue then the horse was miss sold.

 

[4kids2dogs1pony]

She is not advertising as a dealer but from speaking to other horsey folk she is known to buy projects to sell on. ??‍
No I didn’t notice the muscle wastage or subtle lameness when I viewed her, only when the vet pointed them out. I wouldn’t have bought an obviously lame pony. They are experienced horse people with a large private yard, her sons compete regularly, I would have expected them to know if something was wrong. I have screenshots of her stating the pony wasn’t lame when I bought her. I also have a video she sent to me of her son riding the pony which I’ve shown to other experienced people and they have said they can notice it.
I tried to get a copy of the failed vet report but they said it was under the other potential buyers name, not on the pony’s records so I couldn’t access it as I didn’t pay for it ??‍

 

[splashgirl45]

i have lost count of the number of threads on here that are similar. if you are not an experienced ,long term horse owner you need to get the animal vetted with a vet of your choice in every case whatever the seller says....you were told it had failed a vetting yet went on and bought it.....would you have done the same if it was a car and the seller told you it hadnt passed its mot, but it was just an oil leak? i am sorry but you have had a harsh lesson ...

 

[4kids2dogs1pony]

Oh dear. I agree with others, you are unlikely to have any come-back.

You bought the pony having been told it had already failed a vetting and being given the reason as to exactly why this was. You already knew this but went ahead with the purchase anyway.

Sorry but don't think you have any redress in the circumstances you describe; seller was up-front and told you why it had failed the vetting so don't think you can say there is any lack of transparency on their part.

Yes but I was told it failed the vetting due to a stiff leg probably caused by being brought back into work after being left. Now I discover the pony has a lameness issue which has been ongoing for a long while as shown by the muscle wastage. Therefore it was a preexisting condition and would have been picked up by the failed vetting. They therefore knew about it and didn’t disclose it to me, as obviously I wouldn’t have bought her. They knew what I wanted to do with the pony, knew I have two young girls who have fallen in love with her and are now devastated ?

 

[TPO]

Maybe I'm naive but I don't blame the seller.

The horse was obviously open to vetting should a potential purchaser wish to vet and they declared that it had failed a vet. Every chance that they could have believed that it was "just a stiff leg".

If seller was pulling a fast one surely they wouldn't have declared a failed vetting or mentioned a "stiff leg". That sort of admission would have most dropping out of pursuing a sale or at the very least having a vetting with the vet pre armed with that information.

I'm sorry OP but I think this has to be chalked up as a very expensive lesson.

I think the only option now is to get a definite diagnosis from a vet and find out what the next steps would be for that diagnosis

 

[PSD]

Echo above. You bought the horse knowing it had failed a vetting so no, I don’t think you have any leg to stand on.

I would try to fix the issue, it may not be as bad as you first think.

 

[Patterdale]

I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

I can’t see that the seller is at fault though. They were up front and honest that the pony had JUST failed the vet for being lame (lack of work doesn’t cause one ‘stiff’ leg) and you still bought anyway without a vetting.

I really think that people these days need to learn to own their poor decision making. I’ve had to plenty of times in the past!

 

[Roxylola]

The seller may not know more than the horse failed due to lameness on the "stiff" leg. A vetting is done by the purchaser and the full details would only have been given to them by the attending vet. They dont necessarily know about a pre existing condition- there are plenty of not quite right horses happily doing a job out there with owners who are blissfully unaware

 

[paddy555]

She is not advertising as a dealer but from speaking to other horsey folk she is known to buy projects to sell on. ??‍
No I didn’t notice the muscle wastage or subtle lameness when I viewed her, only when the vet pointed them out. I wouldn’t have bought an obviously lame pony. They are experienced horse people with a large private yard, her sons compete regularly, I would have expected them to know if something was wrong. I have screenshots of her stating the pony wasn’t lame when I bought her. I also have a video she sent to me of her son riding the pony which I’ve shown to other experienced people and they have said they can notice it.
I tried to get a copy of the failed vet report but they said it was under the other potential buyers name, not on the pony’s records so I couldn’t access it as I didn’t pay for it ??‍

she sent you a video of the pony being ridden which experienced people have looked at and can see a problem. She was hardly trying to hide any problem by sending you a video of the horse being ridden when apparently "lame/with a problem"

On top of that the seller told you it had failed an earlier vetting. When the first buyer pulled out that buyer could simply have been told by their vet the pony was lame don't buy it. The seller who didn't have access to the vet's report may well have put that down to stiffness coming back into work. The vet may have failed the horse due to suspected X which was serious but they didn't do all the tests to establish that so just wrote it off as a fail. The seller may not have been given that info. They would just have been told by the first buyer, failed vet, sale off.

stiff leg "probably caused by" doesn't mean it definitely was. That was the seller's interpretation of the situation. It was not their job to get a vet to vet the pony you were wanting to buy. That, I'm afraid, was your job. They pointed out to you it had failed a very recent vetting due to a stiff leg. They are not vets giving a professional opinion merely horse owners saying why they thought it had failed. They pointed it out, I can't see you have a leg to stand on.

the seller doesn't have an earlier vet report to give you. They didn't commission one.

All you can do now is get a vet's work up to find out what the problem is and if/how it can be fixed.

 

[ycbm]

I'm sorry but for all the reasons above I can't see why you think you are due a refund for this pony and posts like this make me scared to ever sell another horse.

The last thing I would do if I wanted to con anyone (I never would!) would be to disclose that the horse had already failed a vetting.
.

 

[splashgirl45]

i dont see why you think you have been missold......you bought a pony who the owner told you had been failed due to lameness, how much more open could the seller have been.. the seller assumed it was because the pony had been out of work, another red flag!!!!!! yet you still bought it. its no one elses fault, no blame can be attached to the seller as they showed you a video of their son riding it and they didnt realise it wasnt sound but you have shown this to someone who told you they could see it wasnt right....so why did you still buy it????

 

[shortstuff99]

I will have to look this up, but I don't think not spotting an issue on a video is a defence by a seller. In the same way a car dealer is still liable even if you should've spotted the issue.

You really need to contact a specialist lawyer.

 

[splashgirl45]

but the seller had disclosed the pony had been lame and had failed the vet..., .. if you go to buy a car and the dealer tells you the brakes need doing as it had failed the mot and you still buy it you cant then go back to the car dealer and say the brakes need doing!!!!!!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Scenario 1: pony goes lame. Owners chuck it in a field for 6 months then bring it back into work briefly so they can get rid before it breaks down again and hope it scrapes through a vetting. It fails. They tell the next buyers not to bother with a vetting because 'it only failed because it's been out of work'. Naive buyer buys. I could EASILY do this with Max who went through 3 months of rehab with no problem and only struggled again a month or so after coming home. But I would not dream of it as that is knowingly misleading a buyer. Ie miss selling.

Scenario 2: pony is lame but owners have no idea. They keep riding anyway and the pony begins to change shape to adapt to the injury. They turn him away then decide to sell for lack of time. They do a bit of work with him to prepare for sale. They notice a bit of a dodgy leg but assume it's from work. Pony fails the vetting. They get little feedback because that goes to the buyer, They eye roll at annoying vets failing everything when clearly the pony is fine and is just stiff from unfamiliar work. That is not miss-selling

Re the vetting: Jenny was cheap because she would not pass a vetting. I disclosed that I was selling a horse who was functionally sound and happy in work but would not pass a vetting. And the buyers accepted that. Not everyone makes stuff up and it is not unheard of to take a seller on trust who describes the issues and offers a horse that won't pass for a reduced price. I would still expect the horse to ne as described, not suffering a long term lameness issues that makes it unrideable.

I have no idea how this played out or how the sellers have behaved. I am not saying the OP has a case. But as far as I can see she may well have. But the burden of proof is on her to show the sellers knew the pony was lame and had been for some time. It will be hard to prove but it IS possible. Again going back to Max, there are probably posts across sites discussing his problems.

 

[Orangehorse]

She is not advertising as a dealer but from speaking to other horsey folk she is known to buy projects to sell on. ??‍
No I didn’t notice the muscle wastage or subtle lameness when I viewed her, only when the vet pointed them out. I wouldn’t have bought an obviously lame pony. They are experienced horse people with a large private yard, her sons compete regularly, I would have expected them to know if something was wrong. I have screenshots of her stating the pony wasn’t lame when I bought her. I also have a video she sent to me of her son riding the pony which I’ve shown to other experienced people and they have said they can notice it.
I tried to get a copy of the failed vet report but they said it was under the other potential buyers name, not on the pony’s records so I couldn’t access it as I didn’t pay for it ??‍

I think in the circumstances above you should have a chance of getting returning the pony. Ring BHS for advice or a horse lawyer, and have copies of everything and start straight away.

"Experienced horse people with a large private yard, regularly competing" um, just the sort to try and off load to someone and persuade them not to have a vetting, thinking "sold as seen." I wonder if they might qualify as dealers? Good luck.

 

[ester]

You say that the pony became lame after a couple of days, ergo it wasn't lame when it first arrived? Obviously had you a vetting you'd have tested bloods in that scenario but as that isn't an option

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think sellers hide behind 'sold as seen' but you are still not allowed to KNOWINGLY mislead a buyer. If they knew pony had been lame for a while then they miss-sold it. It's a big if though. Lots of people seem blissfully unaware they are riding lame horses. To my mind the reason for saying it failed could have been to to dissuade the new buyers from vetting the horse. Far from being transparent it could have been a way to hide significant issues by disclosing minor ones.

 

[Orangehorse]

I was discussing a horse that was for loan with someone, I said it seemed a little stiff and she said "don't you mean lame?"

 

[shortstuff99]

Yes, to me the buyer hasn't said the pony failed due to lameness. They said he failed as he was 'a bit stiff'.

 

[ester]

which could have been on flexion only. . .
There's a lot of maybe/possibles going on here.

 

[TPO]

Consider it from the other side and imagine that the seller was posting on here

"Where do I stand having sold a pony that new buyer said went lame a couple of days later so wants to return for a refund?

Pony was open to vetting. I disclosed that it had previously failed a vetting and that it had been turned away and might be stiff having come back into work.

Buyer bought the horse and then messaged to say it went lame a couple of days after it arrived. She said her vet said it's a pre existing condition but hasnt given any diagnosis. She is now saying that the pony was lame in my sales videos however she bought the pony AFTER viewing the videos and pony.

If he went lame a couple of days after she bought him then how am I liable?

What should I do? I was honest, disclosed all the information that i had and pony was open to a vetting for any potential buyer. I dont feel like I've done anything wrong and now buyer is trying to return a horse they said went lame a couple of days after they bought him"

If people dont feel comfortable taking the hit if it goes wrong and pts if it goes really wrong then always vet if you want to have any sort of come back.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

In that scenario, OP does not have a leg to stand on. And she would not be able to prove the sellers knowingly mis-described the pony, because they didn't.
But other scenarios are also just as possible. And in my jaded, cynical view, rather more likely. Though putting ads up with the lameness evident rather point to them being unaware rater than deliberately dishonest.

But that's what lawyers and evidence is for. We are all just guessing!

 

[brighteyes]

Absolutely that, @TPO

Even if it's just a two-stage PPE, get any horse or pony vetted by a vet not connected with the vendor (or equally don't rely on a generic sales vetting).