Middleton Hunt fox cubs

[hackneylass2]

I expect most have seen this.

Can anyone really, honestly say that Lord Middleton is speaking the truth, or is he thinking that there is anyone gullible enough to believe his comments. The man sounds like a complete idiot!

This does the hunting fraternity no good, whichever side of the fence you care to stand!



“Why would people working for a hunt be keeping young foxes?”

She added that in the League’s opinion, “the answer is simple but terrible – they capture foxes so there is always a ready supply of animals to be chased by the hunt”.

The Birdsall Estate’s Lord Middleton, who hunted three times last year, denied the cubs were being raised as quarry.

Speaking as the landowner, he said: “That’s rubbish. We’re not allowed to hunt foxes with hounds.

“They’re not being kept for hunting. (But) it’s not illegal to keep foxes.”

Lord Middleton said he “had no idea whatsoever” the cubs were being kept on his land, but added that they were not being mistreated.

He said he did not “condone” keeping foxes, and suggested the cubs were being cared for by the Hunt for kind reasons.

“I think people have rung up and said, ‘Hey, look I’ve got foxes that needs rescuing, their mother’s dead’, or, ‘I can’t live with them where they are, can you look after them?’

“The Hunt obviously has a supply of meat from farmers etc and it would be able to feed and look after them and then release them back to the wild.”

 

[angrybird1]

Why would a hunt, who always say foxes are vermin and need to be controlled keep cubs like this?
There is only one answer as far as I can see and its not pleasant.
Disgusting.

 

[Judgemental]

This has to be biggest load of old tosh that has ever been peddled by the Anti's.

As I said in another originating thread that is immediately below this one, which the OP 'seems' to have missed in their eagerness to denigrate people who plainly did not know about this matter and in my opinion it is a POORLY CONTRIVED SET UP IN THE FACE OF MOUNTING SUPPORT FOR A REPEAL OF THE STUPID AND DEVISIVE HUNTING ACT 2004.


Oh what a load old rubbish - so what a few cubs in a barn.

16, just shows how this flea infested vermin is breeding unchecked. Vermin that when mature, defecate on lawns and in children's play areas.

If you know of a restaurant that has their vegetables and salad goods delivered overnight and left on the doorstep, be very cautious because of Foxes urinating on the goods! That goes for bottles of milk left on the doorstep from an early hours delivery.

It's about time folk started to face up to the realisms of Foxes and their disgusting habits.

 

[Dry Rot]

Very many years ago I was involved with a hunt. Like everyone else there, I was interested in wildlife -- and still am. We kept hounds but we also kept pets. Just because someone hunts doesn't mean they don't love wildlife and can't keep pets and enjoy observing them at close quarters. Most people who hunt, fish, or shoot will have a very keen interest in learning as much about their quarry as possible and that might indeed include keeping 'vermin' as pets.

 

[angrybird1]

16 Fox cubs as pets?

 

[Alec Swan]

This has to be biggest load of old tosh that has ever been peddled by the Anti's.

…….. .

^^^^ This! The problem is that with the peddled nonsense, so the uninformed or wilfully ignorant, clasp at such twaddle, and in turn pedal it as 'fact'!

When I worked as a 'keeper in Heythrop country, I had a litter of cubs and it would have been either the dog or vixen who were creating considerable damage. Sitting hen pheasants were being taken, nightly and from their nests. I stopped the cubs underground with balls of wire netting, shot both parents as they returned to feed the cubs, removed the stopping materials and fed the cubs every day with shot rabbits or pheasant poults which had died on the rearing field. After a couple of weeks, the cubs came out to be fed in the evenings, and though not tame, they didn't seem to pay much attention to me! Eventually, they left home and the food was no longer taken. I saw them about for some while, but as by July the threat to nesting game was over, so they were left in peace.

There is so much ill-informed nonsense talked by those without understanding, that it's a job to know where to start unravelling the diatribe of drivel!

Alec.

 

[angrybird1]

Find it very very hard to believe that a hunt would keep 16 cubs out of the kindness of their hearts.
If the parents have been shot and foxes are such vermin why not kill the cubs too?
I'm afraid the answer is they are keeping them so when released the hunt will have plenty of quarry to chase in the autumn.
Please don't assume that everyone who disagrees with hunting are ignorant townies.
I'm born and bred in the countryside. Have hunted in the past and found it not for me. Have had livestock and have had poultry killed by a fox.
I still disagree with hunting and also know that keeping foxes like this does go on.
It's insulting and boring to constantly be told that people who disagree with hunting are just ignorant townies who don't understand the countryside.
It's not true.

 

[Sherston]

Does anyone else see the irony in this one the same as the Scottish pack video. So if the cubs had been killed it would have been fine, the issue is that they are alive and being looked after and are in good health. Same as the Scottish packs, the LAC were complaining that the foxes were not shot.

 

[webble]

Does anyone else see the irony in this one the same as the Scottish pack video. So if the cubs had been killed it would have been fine, the issue is that they are alive and being looked after and are in good health. Same as the Scottish packs, the LAC were complaining that the foxes were not shot.

I think its more the hypocrisy than the irony that is the issue

 

[angrybird1]

Definitely hypocrisy. On one hand foxes are vermin that need to be controlled at all costs. On the other a hunt feeds and shelter 16 cubs. Go figure.

 

[ester]

Alternatively if hunting is to both control numbers, and ensure a healthy population of the remainder, I'm not sure this/Alec would be passed the remit.

 

[shadeofshyness]

Find it very very hard to believe that a hunt would keep 16 cubs out of the kindness of their hearts.
If the parents have been shot and foxes are such vermin why not kill the cubs too?
I'm afraid the answer is they are keeping them so when released the hunt will have plenty of quarry to chase in the autumn.
Please don't assume that everyone who disagrees with hunting are ignorant townies.
I'm born and bred in the countryside. Have hunted in the past and found it not for me. Have had livestock and have had poultry killed by a fox.
I still disagree with hunting and also know that keeping foxes like this does go on.
It's insulting and boring to constantly be told that people who disagree with hunting are just ignorant townies who don't understand the countryside.
It's not true.

Agree. It's pretty obvious that this is a case of raising them to release later.

Also on your second point, I agree - although I'm not anti hunting, I roll my eyes every time someone says anything about 'townies'. Such a stupid and tired stereotype/argument.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. , I roll my eyes every time someone says anything about 'townies'. Such a stupid and tired stereotype/argument.

Who, amongst those who disagree with you and others, has suggested that it may be 'townies' who are responsible for an unrealistic approach to the subject? A lack of understanding, appreciation and acceptance isn't peculiar to those of urban domicile.

Alec.

 

[angrybird1]

In which case explain to us lesser mortals who have no understanding why a hunt would be keeping 16 Fox cubs?
I know and you know why so why not just be honest.

 

[Alec Swan]

In which case explain to us lesser mortals who have no understanding why a hunt would be keeping 16 Fox cubs?
I know and you know why so why not just be honest.

If that question was aimed at me, then I'd suggest that for the very same reasons that I fed wild cubs and allowed them to grow and to take their chances. Some will have been hunted, some shot eventually, some probably died a dreadful death in snares, and others will have escaped the attentions of man and lived to procreate and to continue the chain. Why kill young cubs when given the opportunity, they can take their chances with life, just as they would had they been left to be reared by their parents?

I fail to see how the 'assistance' offered is so wrong.

Alec.

 

[ester]

Essentially it depends whether they were planning on keeping them to release one on a hunt day every so often (which probably wouldn't work anyway) and I imagine what lots think they were planning or release them all when old enough as healthy young foxes and let them take their chances - on the basis that it isn't usually the young ones that cause issues for farmers.

 

[Alec Swan]

Essentially it depends whether they were planning on keeping them to release one on a hunt day every so often (which probably wouldn't work anyway) and I imagine what lots think they were planning or release them all when old enough as healthy young foxes and let them take their chances - on the basis that it isn't usually the young ones that cause issues for farmers.

Releasing foxes to be hunted down and killed on a put-and-take basis, most certainly wouldn't work, ever. The reason why the fox has always been hunted, is because he's in an environment which he knows and understands, and for that same reason, the kill-rate is actually abysmally low, and that's how it should be. Placing an animal in a strange and unknown environment would have the animal killed within a very few strides, and that isn't 'hunting'. If the chances of escape for the fox are so low that success is guaranteed, then that would be a pointless exercise and the chance of success for the fox has to be heavily loaded in his favour. That wouldn't be achieved by releasing the fox just prior to being hunted.

Alec.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If the chances of escape for the fox are so low that success is guaranteed, then that would be a pointless exercise and the chance of success for the fox has to be heavily loaded in his favour. That wouldn't be achieved by releasing the fox just prior to being hunted.

Alec.

Sorry, Alec, maybe you are too trusting that anyone involved with hunting would always behave honourably.

You want us to believe that these cubs are being reared for welfare reasons, after somehow being separated from their mothers? Then, at some later point, when they are old enough, with the landowners full knowledge and permission, they will be released back into the wild? So farmers are contacting the hunt to say that they are low on foxes, so could they have a few more, please?

I will put to you an alternative view. That the cubs are being raised so that they can be to tossed to the young hounds, to train them to search for fox scent in the future.

This alternative view is horrendous, and the vast majority of people involved with hunting would be be absolutely horrified at the prospect. It is the first thing that came to mind for me, though .

 

[horserugsnot4u]

Find it very very hard to believe that a hunt would keep 16 cubs out of the kindness of their hearts.
If the parents have been shot and foxes are such vermin why not kill the cubs too?
I'm afraid the answer is they are keeping them so when released the hunt will have plenty of quarry to chase in the autumn.
Please don't assume that everyone who disagrees with hunting are ignorant townies.
I'm born and bred in the countryside. Have hunted in the past and found it not for me. Have had livestock and have had poultry killed by a fox.
I still disagree with hunting and also know that keeping foxes like this does go on.
It's insulting and boring to constantly be told that people who disagree with hunting are just ignorant townies who don't understand the countryside.
It's not true.

Totally agree, although you missed out that we are all vegetarians and bunny huggers. Also I get annoyed when told if you haven't hunted then you don't understand it and therefore your opinion is flawed. Well there are countless horrible things that you know are immoral and it is ridiculous to suggest you have to participate in them to have a valid argument.

 

[horserugsnot4u]

You want us to believe that these cubs are being reared for welfare reasons, after somehow being separated from their mothers? Then, at some later point, when they are old enough, with the landowners full knowledge and permission, they will be released back into the wild? So farmers are contacting the hunt to say that they are low on foxes, so could they have a few more, please?

I will put to you an alternative view. That the cubs are being raised so that they can be to tossed to the young hounds, to train them to search for fox scent in the future.

This alternative view is horrendous, and the vast majority of people involved with hunting would be be absolutely horrified at the prospect. It is the first thing that came to mind for me, though .

I also wonder where the fox urine comes from that is used in trail hunting, which is apparently all that goes on since the ban.

 

[ester]

You can by all sorts of pee!

http://www.predatorpee.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=FU
I don't imagine the full correct story will ever be known as they weren't doing anything illegal at the time and it seems unlikely that there will be any proof of intent to use them as bait or released for the day's sport.

 

[pixie]

Alec_Swan: This is the same hunt that I PM'd you about last year. This is the same hunt that was fined in 2013. They have been in the news several times in regards to illegal hunting.
They were not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. Their reputation locally is appalling.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don't imagine the full correct story will ever be known as they weren't doing anything illegal at the time and it seems unlikely that there will be any proof of intent to use them as bait or released for the day's sport.

Agree. As I posted on the other thread, keeping foxes in a barn is not illegal, as long as their basic needs are met.

Probably only a very few individuals know exactly what was going on, and the true future plans for the cubs.

 

[angrybird1]

I doubt very much that these foxes would have had a pleasant end.
Anyone who thinks that this hunt was kindly feeding and sheltering them out of the kindness of their hearts is either very trusting and nieve or living in a dream world.

 

[fburton]

I doubt very much that these foxes would have had a pleasant end.

Do they ever??

 

[Alec Swan]

Assisting cubs to reach maturity has nothing to do with an act which would be 'out of the kindness of their hearts', but rather giving an animal the chance to grow, thrive, reproduce and perhaps in time, provide sport. Last year I found some wild Bee Orchids which I placed a fence around, to protect them from the attentions of my sheep. I have a small flight pond and in the autumn and through the winter, I feed the wild ducks which come in. Every so often, I'll stand and shoot a few in the evening, but the greatest pleasure for me is in standing at a distance and watching the evening flight as they come in to feed. As we sow, so we reap. It's the way of the world for some, and supporting a litter of cubs serves the same purpose.

There will be those who fail, or refuse to understand the rational behind the involvement which gives some of us pleasure, and their clear cut and apparently entrenched views are such that further explanation seems to be pointless! Ill-founded and ill-thought through assumptions do little to support those who seem unable to consider the larger picture.

pixie, I remember our discussion about the Middleton, but am unable to now find your PM, and I'm also unable to remember its content! There are clear ethics attached to Hunting, and if you have clear evidence of any breach of acceptable behaviour on the part of any pack, then that evidence should be placed before the MFHA.

Amongst one of the offerings above, there's a clear statement that the Police were investigating the fact that cubs were being kept in a barn. Whilst the practice may raise an eyebrow or two, rearing cubs in captivity is not a criminal offence. To claim that an offence has been committed, when clearly it hasn't, does little to support the argument of those who oppose Hunting.

Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

I also wonder where the fox urine comes from that is used in trail hunting, which is apparently all that goes on since the ban.

That from my sources is probably the reason these foxes were being kept. Actually the harvesting of Fox Urine is interesting and fetches a very high price.

Certainly that is the procedure in the States and Canada where they cannot hunt live quarry because of Rabies.

In the same way mare's urine is harvested and used in the manufacture of the Female Contraceptive Pill. That will give one or two something to chew on!

 

[Judgemental]

That from my sources is probably the reason these foxes were being kept. Actually the harvesting of Fox Urine is interesting and fetches a very high price.

Certainly that is the procedure in the States and Canada where they cannot hunt live quarry because of Rabies.

In the same way mare's urine is harvested and used in the manufacture of the Female Contraceptive Pill. That will give one or two something to chew on!

There really are some Prize Fools about!

I strongly recommend that those, especially a well known national broadcaster, who were looking for an excuse to create a means of denigrating hunting generally and in particularly the Middleton Hunt would do well to access the following links about collecting Fox Urine before they spout any more drivel.

http://www.predatorpee.com/predatorpee-collection.htm

http://www.ehow.com/how_6081522_collect-coyote-fox-urine.html

 

[Dobiegirl]

As far as I know the Middleton Hunt hasnt said the foxes were being reared to harvest the urine, maybe they should have said this as I find it more believable then their explanation.

I cant believe how many hunts shoot themselves in the foot with their ridiculous explanations which does more harm then anything the antis can throw at them and I speak as someone who is pro hunting. Incidently even though I get foxes in my garden they have never felt the need to relieve themselves on my door stop or on any friends door stop, maybe Somerset foxes are better behaved.

 

[angrybird1]

Assisting cubs to reach maturity has nothing to do with an act which would be 'out of the kindness of their hearts', but rather giving an animal the chance to grow, thrive, reproduce and perhaps in time, provide sport. Last year I found some wild Bee Orchids which I placed a fence around, to protect them from the attentions of my sheep. I have a small flight pond and in the autumn and through the winter, I feed the wild ducks which come in. Every so often, I'll stand and shoot a few in the evening, but the greatest pleasure for me is in standing at a distance and watching the evening flight as they come in to feed. As we sow, so we reap. It's the way of the world for some, and supporting a litter of cubs serves the same purpose.

There will be those who fail, or refuse to understand the rational behind the involvement which gives some of us pleasure, and their clear cut and apparently entrenched views are such that further explanation seems to be pointless! Ill-founded and ill-thought through assumptions do little to support those who seem unable to consider the larger picture.

pixie, I remember our discussion about the Middleton, but am unable to now find your PM, and I'm also unable to remember its content! There are clear ethics attached to Hunting, and if you have clear evidence of any breach of acceptable behaviour on the part of any pack, then that evidence should be placed before the MFHA.

Amongst one of the offerings above, there's a clear statement that the Police were investigating the fact that cubs were being kept in a barn. Whilst the practice may raise an eyebrow or two, rearing cubs in captivity is not a criminal offence. To claim that an offence has been committed, when clearly it hasn't, does little to support the argument of those who oppose Hunting.

Alec.

Your first paragraph says it all really.
So basically, you are saying that the hunt is raising Fox cubs for future sport.
Do you not find this hypocritical?
How if the Fox needs controlling and is such a pest to farmers is it right to raise them in this way to provide sport for the hunt?
Hunting foxes is illegal is it not?
One of the arguments for the repeal of the hunting ban is pest control, yet they are in effect breeding foxes.
To me, this can not be right.
I fully expect to be shot down by people saying I don't understand country ways or farming etc.
I do understand what's going on here and its not good.