Mine - TB Stallion In Badminton Parade

[no_no_nanette]

I thought that I would post some videos and pics of this guy, as he got completely slated by one or two people who saw him at the Stallion Parade at Badminton on this forum, maybe a bit unjustly ... He's a tough little racehorse who has recently come off the track, and has not been schooled to the level of the other stallions shown, therefore, and was ridden I think by someone who just had the ride for the day, so may not have shown him off to best advantage. But as an eventing sire he might well do the biz - many TBs that continental studs have used to add blood are not exactly picture postcard; and Mine's pedigree is a pretty attractive one for eventing breeding. I don't have any connections, by the way, with the stallion, just thought that some of the comments were unfair, and wanted to give a bit of balance to the debate. Also because several people who are far more expert than I am in the TB area have seen the pics and really like him, so felt a bit more confident in challenging some of the harsher comments!

I think that critiques of conformation, etc, are really useful for us all, but its not great for a small breeder who is new to the world of sport horse breeding to have their stallion instantly labelled with an insulting description!

 

[Maesfen]

The more I see of this boy, the more I like him!
He looks a useful solid type and seems to have a good temperament for one that has only just finished racing; seems very calm there. It's also nice to actually see his legs instead of being covered up in boots and bandages as others seem to have been at various parades. How are you supposed to see their lower limbs if they're covered up all the time?

 

[alleycat]

When I saw these pictures my first reaction was surprise; here was a pretty decent horse; not at all the broken-down nonentity that some of the comments would suggest.

My second reaction was a realisation that we are so influenced by the trappings of sportshorse promotion; the showmanship, the presentation, the appropriate schooling; that we have maybe forgotten how to assess the horse itself....

edited to say I would agree re the legs! I believe Chilli Morning failed his grading on a front leg issue; (I really like the look of him by the way; not intending to knock him) but under those circumstances I would have been expecting his connections to be showing off his good conformation by letting it be seen- but no; it was left for the racehorse, though his legs must have been absolutely hammered in his long, hard career, to brave scrutiny and appear bare-legged.

 

[sallyf]

I quite like this stallion he has great quality.
Ok so his limbs from the knee and hock down are a little weak but then he has raced year in year out for 7 seasons he is entitled to look a little like that.
He looks like he coped admirably with what must have been a totally new experience to him especially when some of the others looked less well behaved .

 

[seabiscuit]

He looks very nice indeed-I said my bit in the other thread, to have raced for 8 years at the high level that he did, apparently never suffering from major injuries, well he must be something pretty damm special. Racing is the ultimate test of soundness and toughness.

I have to say that he looks remarkably well considering the career he's had- I'm used to 9 year old flat racers looking very downtrodden and old.

Re the movement- generally the more they've raced the worse their movement becomes espc if they were started at 2. Mine looks as tho he would have had the conformation to be a good mover if he'd never raced.

 

[Laafet]

Here here, the more I see of this boy the more I like him and I hate the misconception that anything that has raced is broken down. I hope he proves everyone wrong and gets some future eventers on the ground. Think about Ghareeb and how popular he is getting and he was owned by my old boss and had a fantastic temperament.

 

[henryhorn]

I like him too, he looks useful and has proved a tough sort.
Sometimes people need to see past how they are produced, some of the best produced stallions in the country have been known to be sedated for stallion parades, and considering he's just off the track I think he did well to cope with the occasion.

 

[YOUANDYOURS]

Fully agree as I have been to a couple of stallion parades this year and it seems only the TB stallions are shown without boots - all others whether ridden or in hand tend to have boots or white bandages which never seem to come off!

This horse may or may not become a useful sire and I to feel very sorry for the connections about how he has been slated. Lets hope they feel they can bring him back next year when he will hopefully look like an "entire" and not a racehorse!

Groomsbridge - you comment on his proven record - his ability to stay in training for years and then add he is weak from the knee and hock down - if he is then surely he would not have with stood all that work.

 

[ihatework]

I fully stand by any comment I made on the thread.

I would be interested to know who puts their money where their mouth is and uses him on their event mares, I will watch his future offspring with interest.

rufusbluemoon - perhaps you could put some trot videos up?!

 

[sallyf]

[ QUOTE ]
Fully agree as I have been to a couple of stallion parades this year and it seems only the TB stallions are shown without boots - all others whether ridden or in hand tend to have boots or white bandages which never seem to come off!

This horse may or may not become a useful sire and I to feel very sorry for the connections about how he has been slated. Lets hope they feel they can bring him back next year when he will hopefully look like an "entire" and not a racehorse!

Groomsbridge - you comment on his proven record - his ability to stay in training for years and then add he is weak from the knee and hock down - if he is then surely he would not have with stood all that work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was speaking purely from a conformational point of view.
many many horses with not perfect confromation stay sound year in year out.
It wasnt a slating of this horse far from it as i actually quite like him but just an observation .
Lets face it horses like Chilli morning obviously arnt perfect as his front legs have been well documented as the reason he initially failed his grading but he is obviously tough and hasnt had soundness issues .

 

[no_no_nanette]

'Fraid I only have what I have put up, B_J .... and you're right, of course only time will tell if this stallion will become a useful sport horse sire. But I think that the opinions above endorse the fact that a racehorse who has survived 8 seasons is not going to have the same athleticism and fluidity of a dressage stallion - of course its not - and I think that "embarrassingly awful" is not in any way a fair description of Mine : also that he "has only ever been in racing" doesn't make him unfit as a sire of future eventers - given his record possibly the opposite!! Its interesting to look at the previous thread on racing sires, as well. I absolutely support your right to voice a strong view, I just think that its more useful if we get a clear critique of conformation and movement, based on a knowledge also of a horse's history, rather than emotive terms such as "donkey" and "embarrassingly awful" being used. I just get fired up by unfairness, sorry!

 

[ihatework]

Although I do fully see where you are coming from (he was obviously a tough sound well performing racehorse) this stallion parade was held at the most prestigious 3DE in the world. It wasn't a stallion parade for ex-racehorses that as yet have (and please correct me if I am wrong) nothing on the ground that is being geared towards sporthorse activities.

And yes, to me, the stallion did look embarrassingly awful. It was unschooled and not produced. Fair enough maybe I shouldn't be so shallow and should be able to see through that but I can't believe he was showcased at such an event with so little preparation.

As I say, it will be VERY interesting to see what mares he actually gets, and what he throws.

 

[no_no_nanette]

I think that you're right about its not being the best showcase for his first introduction to potential sport horse breeders! The owners seemed a bit bemused by it all, and maybe should have been better briefed/prepared .... brings us on to the question of who gets invited to these parades, and what criteria are used. These guys may have thought when they got an invitation that it was a brilliant opportunity, when they would probably have been better advised to market him differently. I have to say that the studbooks represented at Badminton were not doing a very good job at their stalls - I was browsing in one when a lady came in to enquire about sport horse stallions, described her mare and what she was looking to improve, and was told offhandedly to look through the stallion books! No advice, very customer unfriendly ..... and it got worse! The mare owner was looking at the details of a stallion that I know well, and eventually I got so frustrated by the offhand manner of the person representing the studbook, I ended up telling her all about the stallion myself!

Just underlines the fact that many of our studbooks need to get much, much more professional about how they represent the stallions graded with them, and how they market themselves ......

 

[maestro]

Tell me about it! One of the reasons I like to take my boy is to be able talk to mare owners even if ultimatly they dont use him initially. Their choice of stallions to showcase at Badminton is always a bit bemusing as I have said before. I would happily pay a higher subscription if it meant some proper marketing into the correct spheres.

 

[ajf]

Wow not what I was expecting considering the posts he got.

 

[Touchwood]

Well, as someone who has a 10 year old list one flat race winner sat in the field at home (who incidentally, has not made it through his racing career unscathed), I'd like to say how well this horse looks, and how tough he clearly is.

 

[pinktiger]

oddly enough a stallion display is just that,,,, a display and window to your type, breeding, going, stamp!!!
If what your saying about his production is correct then
when offered an opportunity to SHOW at badminton ,,, you would want the best rider and the best production of your horse,, lets face it how often would you be invited to show at one of the biggest show cases for eventing ect stock in the UK, and for the UK stallions! The horse may well have come off the track,,, but imo fully deserves the opinions that have come from the viewing public at badminton, as this stallion did not show well to me. !

IF this horse is being judged unjustly thensurely its the fault of the way its produced(????? )(in my oninion) and NOT the viewers of said stallion and stallion parade!!

Maybe he will be lucky enough to get a second chance, but there are lots of super UK stallions out there that would have loved the chance to parade at Badminton, and producers that would have worked day in day out to give the stallion the best chance it had!!

 

[boxffrogs]

He wasn't judged unjustly at all. He showed up looking awful (he wasn't the only one) and if you do that at a stallion parade you should expect what you get, which is what he got.

The method by which stallions go to the parade is simple and there are no "dark arts" at work there. You just have to be registered with SHB(GB) as a stallion and I believe that's about it.

Stallion owners have been shown in recent weeks, that the standard has been raised substantially by the arrival of Grafenstolz. If your stallion isn't up to it, is he really a stallion? If you turn up at the biggest event in the world, without a top rider on board, beautifully turned out, no white bandages to show off your movement, no top line, no pizzazz and nothing to talk about, you're not going to get very far in the stallion owning game.

Also, this "stallion" has no production record of any kind, so how did he stay entire as a tb??? This is an example of tb for tb's sake. He's no Heraldik, Julio Mariner or Hand in Glove, after all.

 

[no_no_nanette]

[ QUOTE ]
He wasn't judged unjustly at all. He showed up looking awful (he wasn't the only one) and if you do that at a stallion parade you should expect what you get, which is what he got

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very incoherent, boxffrogs - what was it that you believe he "got"?? If you mean insults, I would hope that most posters on this forum, as witnessed by the majority on this thread, are sufficiently knowledgeable and mature to provide a proper critique of the horse, not to stoop to subjective insults

[ QUOTE ]
The method by which stallions go to the parade is simple and there are no "dark arts" at work there. You just have to be registered with SHB(GB) as a stallion and I believe that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite correct - at least two stallion owners are puzzled about the criteria and not sure why they did not receive an invitation

[ QUOTE ]
Stallion owners have been shown in recent weeks, that the standard has been raised substantially by the arrival of Grafenstolz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I wonder why you would be promoting this stallion yet AGAIN???? Its very transparent, and you really ought to allow the horse's talents to speak for themselves, without the usual approach of comparing him with, and denigrating other stallions in the UK. The day that you find yourself able to do that, your views might just be a little more credible


[ QUOTE ]
If your stallion isn't up to it, is he really a stallion?

[/ QUOTE ]

???? I would imagine that this stallion is "up to it", as I believe that he has already covered a number of mares this season.

[ QUOTE ]
If you turn up at the biggest event in the world, without a top rider on board, beautifully turned out, no white bandages to show off your movement, no top line, no pizzazz and nothing to talk about, you're not going to get very far in the stallion owning game.

[/ QUOTE ]

.... which we assume you now know all about. After a VERY short career as a stallion owner, maybe a little more humility would be in order? And as regards the white bandages ..... dear oh dear. I think that others have argued the case better than I could - see posts above.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this "stallion" has no production record of any kind, so how did he stay entire as a tb??? This is an example of tb for tb's sake. He's no Heraldik, Julio Mariner or Hand in Glove, after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has no production record, boxffrogs, because he has been racing. Over eight seasons. Successfully. So maybe a little more robust than some other stallions currently on the UK scene. And as I'm sure you are aware, many of the great TBs who have contributed to continental warmblood breeding in the past were far from conventionally beautiful!

 

[shirleyno2]

[ QUOTE ]

Stallion owners have been shown in recent weeks, that the standard has been raised substantially by the arrival of Grafenstolz.

If your stallion isn't up to it, is he really a stallion? If you turn up at the biggest event in the world, without a top rider on board, beautifully turned out, no white bandages to show off your movement, no top line, no pizzazz and nothing to talk about, you're not going to get very far in the stallion owning game.



[/ QUOTE ]

So Grafenstolz NEEDS a top rider and white bandages to look Impressive!
Doesn't say much for him without the tinsel does it?

 

[Maesfen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



So Grafenstolz NEEDS a top rider and white bandages to look Impressive!
Doesn't say much for him without the tinsel does it?

[/ QUOTE ]


That says it all!

 

[Gingerbear]

I really like Mine he is a very nice horse with a really genuine eye, I can see why he stayed in racing for so long. I understand that Weatherbys horses have to do natural coverings so I can see why he has not covered if he was in full time race training. I have a friend who has a young SHBGB registered stallion who enquired about the stallion parade and was told that he had to be graded with a recognized breed society to parade not just registerd with them. I have seen Grafentolz and he is a stunning stallion but I would still go for Jumbo over him any time - just proves how subjective it is so no point on banging on about him the customer will decide.

 

[magic104]

You know he does not have bad race record ran 66 times 10 wins 7 x 2nds 8 x 3rds winning £273,065, this is assuming he is the Mine by Primo Dominie. So he was not shown as you would expect, well everyone is entitled to their mistakes, it is normally how we learn. It is doubtful they will be in the same situation next time. You dont like him, well you dont have to, but I do think you have to remember he has been racing since he was a 2yo your WB's dont have to endure that, going into training at 18mths then onto a track while still a baby. I think he can be forgiven for not moving straight, unlike many WB's I have seen coming down the centre line, dishing & paddling!!!

 

[LynneB]

Wouldn't it have been lovely if Mr Rehill, clearly a stallion owner of quite some standing, according to him, were a bigger man and gave helpful advice to the owners of Mine - regarding what he feels suitable turnout - instead of being his hugely critical self.

Mine is a lovely horse, fantastic record and given time will show his ability as a sport horse stallion.

That he was not dressed up for the occasion is neither here nor there. What is more important to many, is your continual rantings over how great "your" stallion is as opposed to everyone else's.

 

[henryhorn]

Boxffrogs is there any post you ever make lately that you don't sneak the G word and stallion in it?
Surely if you have that much confidence in him you don't need to continually promote him?

 

[cmg]

I may well be wrong, but as far as I'm aware, Mine behaved extremely well at Badminton. Which is rather more than can be said for the likes of Grafenstolz at Belton, who pogo'd around the collecting ring like a frog on acid and whose rider actually had to get off.

 

[SpottedCat]

QR: I'm afraid I agree with B&J - both Chilli Morning and Wish Upon a Star looked fabulous and were, IMO the two best presented stallions at the parade. Both really epitomised the eventing sire for me, both were eventing fit, jumped fences beautifully, looked in super condition, were unfazed by the atmosphere etc. Mine looked very weak, stiff and not a great contribution to sportshorse breeding, and sadly if you take part in a stallion parade you will be judged against the other horses present - for example Catherston Liberator looked obese against the others present.

That's not to say Mine isn't tough and a great racehorse sire, and that he hasn't proven his worth as a stallion, but up against the others in the parade he looked very out of place. He may well in time prove his worth in sportshorse breeding, but in the context of the Badminton stallion parade he did not look like he had earnt his place sadly.

 

[Laafet]

PMSL, spat my tea over my computer at that!

 

[shirleyno2]

Have to add, I had a lady come to see one of my stallions on Wednesday, she had been to both Belton and Badminton parades, but she's going to use one of my showjumping stallions on her advanced mare! To quote her " nothing at either parade quite ticked all the boxes till your chap"!!
And I don't use white bandages either!!!!

 

[cruiseline]

So Mr KR is back !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is it KR that you don't have a decent word to say about anyone or anything in the whole wide world, except of course the Futurity at the moment, now I wonder why that is, doesn't take a brain surgeon to work that one out!!!!!!!!

This forum is for advise and information, not a public soap box for you to slag off everyone else in the breeding industry.

We have had it from you about horse's breeding (not world class enough) passports (not elite enough), other semen agents (not professional enough), and now you take it upon yourself to slag off other peoples stallions while, at the same time, get a free plug for your own.

So all I can say is, HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!