Minerals - for those who are sceptical

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JillA

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Well worth a read - Dr Kellon is a highly regarded equine specialist, she is the guiding light behind the Yahoo ECIR group, and recently published an interesting blog on rate of maturation of the different joints in the equine skeleton. This is about the often under rated value of magnesium and calcium
http://uckeleequine.wordpress.com/
 
Weird magnesium is the "in" mineral from what I have seen, we will soon be dealing with excess issues as people don't seem to be taking into account the importance of balancing minerals against each other.
 
maccachic said:
Weird magnesium is the "in" mineral from what I have seen, we will soon be dealing with excess issues as people don't seem to be taking into account the importance of balancing minerals against each other.
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My understanding is that there are few mineral interaction issues. The two I know of are calcium/ phosphorous and copper/iron/manganese.

Magnesium, I understand is flushed out in urine if given in excess.

Horses are largely self balancing systems, to allow for wide fluctuations in nutrition.
 
There's so much we don't know about equine physiology. what I do know is that most of them are brilliantly evolved to get what they need out of not very much. While I agree in the case of magnesium (although the amounts some are feeding seem massive), I do worry that some owners are taking advice of the internet and shovelling unnecessary minerals down their horses necks. just because you can't see signs, doesn't mean to say its not causing something sub clinically. The statement that horses simply flush out excess minerals and that this doesn't put extra strain on the organs involved, I see that time and time again-well, lets see some data for that.

maybe I should take one of Dr Kellon's courses, because the blog posts are very elementary. She's also making claims for certain herbal remedies in place of NSAIDs which to the best of my knowledge, aren't not backed up meaningfully in any scientific study for any species.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
maybe I should take one of Dr Kellon's courses, because the blog posts are very elementary. She's also making claims for certain herbal remedies in place of NSAIDs which to the best of my knowledge, aren't not backed up meaningfully in any scientific study for any species.
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The only one of those herbal remedies she mentions that I would give any credence to is willow bark, and that's because it contains one of the components of Asprin. However, I don't know how its effects compare to Asprin and it isn't the same compound so she can't assume the same results. Other than that, there is a lot of talk of how X natural remedy "can" have an effect, or "may" do such and such. Unlike pharmaceuticals which have proven effects (and known side effects), for which there has been extensive research and study.

This http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/07/vitamins-stop-taking-the-pills is a really interesting article and worth a read by everyone who considers choosing natural over pharmaceuticals.

ETA - argh, just realised the article isn't available any more so there's a Q&A with the author instead http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/26/vitamins-health-paul-offit-qanda
 
If I'm unhappy with any of my horses, I have a urine test done which will tell me exactly what deficiencies they may have. I don't like feeding horses supplements for the sake of it, its too expensive when you own several. My way works very well, and I've had some interesting results come back.
 
cundlegreen said:
If I'm unhappy with any of my horses, I have a urine test done which will tell me exactly what deficiencies they may have. I don't like feeding horses supplements for the sake of it, its too expensive when you own several. My way works very well, and I've had some interesting results come back.
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Totally agree. I wouldn't supplement with specific minerals on a hunch - I'd have tests done to determine whether the horse was deficient in something, and then supplement based on my findings
 
maccachic said:
This explains mineral interactions pretty well: http://www.balancedequinenutrition.com/Ratios.html
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But where did those figures come from? Who says 2 to 1 is the 'right' ratio? How was it tested?

When I have asked this question previously I have been told its a best guess.

And that mineral testing which has been done was to overload or deprive test horses to such an extent that they got ill or died , with huge margins of supposed safety.

I know that I have been supplementing copper without supplementing zinc, a supposed no-no, for three years now with no apparent problems whatsoever.


I actually think that apart from the two really serious ones, copper/manganese/iron (preventing copper uptake and disrupting insulin usage) and calcium/phosphorous(preventing calcium uptake and causing weak bones) it is very easy to worry too much.
 
Why only those interactions surely the rest is the same potassium prevents mag absorbtion, to much mag affect calcium. No point adding more mag if you potassium is off the scale. Salt helps get rid of potassium - it all helps.

Most the results are via testing NRC has some good info on their site.

I know when mine are off the supplement I use (which gives me a therotically balanced diet) I get issues with mudfever / rain scald and never a sign when they are on them - so immune responses happen when deficent / excess which leads to other issues.

Blood testing has limitationss which most people don't understand (don't know about urine but assume its similar).
 
maccachic said:
Why only those interactions surely the rest is the same potassium prevents mag absorbtion, to much mag affect calcium. No point adding more mag if you potassium is off the scale. Salt helps get rid of potassium - it all helps.

Most the results are via testing NRC has some good info on their site.

I know when mine are off the supplement I use (which gives me a therotically balanced diet) I get issues with mudfever / rain scald and never a sign when they are on them - so immune responses happen when deficent / excess which leads to other issues.

Blood testing has limitationss which most people don't understand (don't know about urine but assume its similar).
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Unless your horses have no grazing and you test every batch of forage and have also tested your water and measure their intake daily, your horses are largely self balancing.

Sure, deficiencies cause problems, but all this fretting about perfecting this or that ratio, apart from the two I have mentioned, is, in my opinion, causing unnecessary worry to horse owners.


For most horse owners, their best bet, again in my opinion, is to use one of the two easily obtainable low iron/high copper all round balancers sold by Forageplus or Progressive Earth. Or give their horses access to a large area of mixed, unfertilized, wild meadow (yes, I have one, but I am extremely lucky!)
 
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I don't know about urine testing (except for glucose levels) but surely, urine contains the EXCESSES that the system can't utilise, how can it point up deficiencies?
 
JillA said:
I don't know about urine testing (except for glucose levels) but surely, urine contains the EXCESSES that the system can't utilise, how can it point up deficiencies?
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Don't ask me how they do it, I think they test the sediment after its settled. All I know is that some very surprising results have come back, and when I've had a supplement made by the people, it has worked really well. Usually see a difference in 7-10 days.
 
cundlegreen said:
Don't ask me how they do it, I think they test the sediment after its settled. All I know is that some very surprising results have come back, and when I've had a supplement made by the people, it has worked really well. Usually see a difference in 7-10 days.
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I presume it is something like this? http://www.forestfarmacy.com/Equine-Vet-Screening.html

TBH if I have sufficient concern about my horse's health to require all of these tests, I'd rather just defer to my vet, have him run the whole lot then work with him to find the best way forwards.

I really do think we all worry far too much. Horses are designed to get the most from their diet. I have in the past spent a fortune on various supplements, trying to follow this ratio or that, got nowhere and seen no discernible improvement in said horse. Horse I have now doesn't get the recommended amount of his feed (Dengie Healthy Tummy), gets a bit of linseed when I've got it, and a bit of magox because I think it can help when the grass is growing and with anxiety. He looks a million dollars, his feet grow like weeds (farrier comments every time what good, strong feet he has), is out 24/7 on reasonable grass, and is fit as a fiddle. He works fairly hard, enjoys it and seems to be coping perfectly well on this random diet.

I'd like to see the peer reviewed research that proves all these 2:1 ratios.
 
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