Mini Dressage Debate:- Should Levade Be Introduced at GP?

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Tierra

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I saw this discussion on another forum (im sure some will identify where quite fast) - but i thought it was a good one!

So here we go. Levade in classical terms, is a follow on from a good, correct piaffe. While the movement is quite technical, the basis of it is pretty natural for most horses.

So - would introducing levade help sort through the combinations who train correctly and really do reach the supposed levels of collection for grand prix versus the ones who over rollkur and who's horses, even at top level, dont show true collection (semi thinking back to P_Gs thread last week here).

Or! Would it just result in many horses being trained for this movement in a harsh manner and be the cause of more equine breakdowns?

Any thoughts?
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Hm I pretty certain the Levade is know as something that only some horses can product so it's not for all horses. The whole point about the tests at the moment is that in theory all horses should be able to do all the movements. Introducing Levade would scupper that.
 
See, i disagree with that. If piaffe is taught correctly (i.e. with the weight beind shifted back correctly), then the next stage in the training is levade and most horses who are already at this level should be able to produce it to some degree or another.

That of course, ignores the very specific technical requirements for it.

I guess my argument is.. that while more and more people claim modern training methods don't produce horses that work correctly from behind or over their backs, would this perhaps sort through some of those?

Also to be fair, not all horses have the aptitude for piaffe and passage - thats why many producers will test this at a very young age to establish whether or not the horse should be aimed at higher level dressage
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Seems to me that if the Spanish riding school say only some of their stallions are capable of levade that it is a specialist movement only attainable by some horses.

I've also read that mares would never be asked to do this because of their naturally longer backs , there may be some that could "manage" it but it would be detrimental to their backs and health.

Also pure leveade and a circus trick leap? Two sides of the same coin just as the current problems.
 
I can see an argument for and against. It shoud be attainable for a correctly produced horses and woud certainly show true collection. In my mind though levade shoud be a very relaxed, very natural progression from a collect piaffe and not something you can demand on a marker- I think the danger would be that it increased tension even in nicely 'sat' horses as many horses try to leap out of the levade if it isnt set up perfectly.
 
simple answer - no - as the training methods used to produce it in the wrong hands could get a bit 'dubious' and also concur on the issue of mares

as for the current tests being designed to suit most horses - no - not strictly true - the current tests at international level were designed to suit most warmblood horses
 
See, i agree with you boss.

I can see there'd be a lot of issues with introducing it to tests. As you said, producing it on "demand" would be one of them (where as if you watch the SRS working on this, they spend quite a lot of time in piaffe until the horses are sitting right down behind and THEN levade appears, as you said, very naturally!).

The other thing i could forsee being an issue again comes back to the technical side of how many degrees the hocks are meant to be from the ground and how they'd actually distinguish between the levade and the low pesade.

I think my point was more than piaffe seen at the very top level often shows very little degree of collection these days. SOME classical trainers have argued that adding levade would mean they would have to establish this as was originally intended otherwise they could never move on to asking for levade.

I certainly think it COULD help show those who are trained correctly
 
Yes i see that too!

Theres a quote on the other thread from a classical trainer who claims that adding levade would, as i mentioned, ensure people have to train correctly and get the horse to take the weight back onto the high quarters or they could never progress to levade. However, given the new more modern training methods that have evolved (rollkur for example) surely, the same would happen with this and you'd get some very frightening methods used to force the horse into this movement.

I found it an interesting debate never the less.
 
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as for the current tests being designed to suit most horses - no - not strictly true - the current tests at international level were designed to suit most warmblood horses

[/ QUOTE ]

Um they were not designed for warmbloods , they were designed for the horses around back then which were not warmbloods. At least not what we think of as warmbloods today.

Really it would all be simple if the judges just judged properly
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re: I've also read that mares would never be asked to do this because of their naturally longer backs , there may be some that could "manage" it but it would be detrimental to their backs and health.

now, that really interests me, as i have a 6yr old mare here who has a totally natural levade... she does it any time she gets excited or impatient, with no apparent effort. it isn't a rear, she really sits on her hindquarters and lifts in front. hmm.
 
does she do it when you're on board?

I would say when I first read that I though I wasn't sure about it. I've know a few very short coupled mares and some very long geldings. But then that just adds to the only certain horses bit I guess.

If it were introduced do you think we'd see a different build of horse become popular?
 
[ QUOTE ]
re: I've also read that mares would never be asked to do this because of their naturally longer backs , there may be some that could "manage" it but it would be detrimental to their backs and health.

now, that really interests me, as i have a 6yr old mare here who has a totally natural levade... she does it any time she gets excited or impatient, with no apparent effort. it isn't a rear, she really sits on her hindquarters and lifts in front. hmm.

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So do I- Moon's got the ongest back ever and whist she's athetic, she hasnt got a strong back yet evade woud be natura to her, in resistance she sits back on her hocks for a good coupe of seconds.
That raises another interesting point- shoud you train a normal GP horse to do levade if not required in tests as it can be a resitance against a very collect piaffe.
 
I'm not experienced enough to either agree or disagree. However, I was holding a 3yo Connie Colt last night (not at work, at the yard) to have his mane tidied up for the first time and initially he kept on sitting and going into a perfect levade! I said to my YO that he was a dressage pony in the making......... He is exceptional though - I'd even consider using him on B!
 
yes, my mare does it under saddle, with no problems. she hasn't got a long back though.

i love the fact that the Spanish Riding School of Vienna allow the horses to specialise in their natural aptitudes. it shows a real respect for the individual horse which is sadly lacking in a lot of horsemen nowadays, i think.
i can't help thinking that if levade was introduced in GP tests, people would be teaching it with whips in the corner of the school.
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how about cantering backwards, that used to be a High School movement, didn't it? *mind boggles slightly*
because the necessary 3-time ness would be hard to keep correct if it was taught under duress, i mean.
 
i think that it might produce tension if people are trying to train their horses levade. IMO it would result in more horses being incorrectly trained, not working over their backs properly. Its just another movement that i personally dont think is necessary at GP level.

I do think that it would result in more 'equine breakdowns' aswell........
 
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Yep, you make a very good point and indeed, the thread on the other forum follows onto that.

Indeed this:-


http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3897/cartujanorearwebaf0.jpg

Is the picture of a horse that a guy took over training. His previous owners had tried to teach him to "levade" on command.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Haha! Oh sorry. I know that yard! I used to live there!!!!!!!!! Small world. Hmmmmm, that isn't a levade.

Random fact, the 1961 Grand National winner Nicholas Silver used to live there.
 
Just out of curiosity Tierra - which forum was this discussion on? I assumed it was UDBB, but I can't find it there.....

Btw, I don't think levade should be in the GP. I think that the GP as it is written allows horses with perhaps not the most natural talent for all the work, but which have been fantastically trained and ridden, do most of the required movements well enough. This is good for the sport because it does allow unusual but exceptionally trained horses get to GP (if not to the Olympics or the Euros, but at least to national GP, which should be the zenith of training for all dressage horses). The GP is about more than just the Piaffe. It is about the entire test - the pirs, the passage, the zig zag, the ones.....
 
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