Mini Rant - Why don't people teach their horses basic manners - like leading nicely?

[PolarSkye]

I have had the "pleasure" of handling several fellow liveries' horses over the past couple of days what with one thing and another and every single one of them was (IMHO) rude to lead. Barge-y, pull-y, constantly putting their heads down to graze and a real pain.

Kal is certainly no paragon of virtue, but he moves back out of my space when I ask him to (without me touching him) and is an absolute lamb to lead - at my shoulder or behind me, not pulling or barging or shoving and he knows that he waits until I tell him he can graze while in hand - he is too ruddy big to be towing me about all over the place - so I have taught him to be respectful when being handled/led by people.

It's such a basic thing - why don't more people do it? I see many liveries being tugged off to a nice patch of grass, or having to take ages to bring their horses in b/c they keep stopping to graze. I simply don't understand.

Rant over.

P

 

[soulfull]

I have no idea, often wonder it myself

was having similar conversation with a friend last night, people often say to me oh your horse is so well mannered wish mine was. Its almost as though they think they either have manners or they don't.
They have no idea that to keep him that way I sometimes have to actually put in some work. typical example was last night he was just in one of those arsy moods they can all get from time to time so I made him do some ground work. just the usual putting his feet where I want them etc. but they fail to see the connection

 

[Chavhorse]

Yep I am with you on this!

Even better is when they say to you "ohh you are so lucky your horse is so polite and lovely to lead, he is such a Gentleman" and I feel like saying well he didn't pop out like this, he was a pain in the backside youngster once we just put a lot of work into teaching him that dragging a human around was NOT acceptable.

 

[oldie48]

For the same reason you see horses that won't tie up, pick up their feet, stand to be groomed or tacked up etc etc, all the basic stuff that makes a mannerly horse. Too many horses are brought on by people who lack the experience to do a good job or more experienced horses test their boundaries on changing hands and find the door open. Horses need to understand where they are in the pecking order and that has to be below the person doing the handling. We all have to learn and I've certainly benefitted from lots of help from more experienced people but it's worrying when people think they are being kind when actually they are letting their horse walk all over them.

 

[fatpiggy]

Ooh tell me about it! I showed my girl what I expected of her from the day I bought her and spend weeks working from the ground with her before I really rode her. She was basically voice controlled as a result. Of course she could have her moments but she was so good to lead that a friend's two year old led her around and she took tiny steps so that she didn't go past him. I used to walk miles with her on a lunge line and she would stay beside me until I gave her the command to go ahead (because the path was narrow). I also trained her to stand in the stable with the door open and not come out until she heard the magic words (alright then). The trouble is (with animals generally I think) that people treat them like babies, princesses whatever and totally forget they are big strong animals with enough brainpower and cunning to get one over you if they so wish. I did spend hours talking rubbish to my horse and no-one will ever convince me that she wasn't a person in her own right with a very well developed character all of her own, but she was an animal and most importantly, below me in the pecking order (although I'd be the first to admit that she was really only pandering to me, she knew she really wore the trousers and ALWAYS had the last word when we argued )

 

[Chavhorse]

I have no idea, often wonder it myself

was having similar conversation with a friend last night, people often say to me oh your horse is so well mannered wish mine was. Its almost as though they think they either have manners or they don't.
They have no idea that to keep him that way I sometimes have to actually put in some work. typical example was last night he was just in one of those arsy moods they can all get from time to time so I made him do some ground work. just the usual putting his feet where I want them etc. but they fail to see the connection

Yep mine can forget himself occasionally and he gets told in no uncertain terms that it is not OK and yes moving his feet where I want them to be is exactly what I do too....but nope people can not see the connection at all.

 

[EllenJay]

i am owned by a lovely Welsh D, who is far too clever for his own good, and one of the things he does is to test out a "new" handler (i.e. someone who doesn't normally handle him). So with a new person he will try barging, snatching at food, pulling in a different direction. With me (or anyone who stood up to him when they first handled him) I can lead him on a loose rope without any issues. So maybe, these horses you are handling have the same "testing out" mentality that my boy has, and that is something i can not teach him not to do!!

 

[PolarSkye]

Yep I am with you on this!

Even better is when they say to you "ohh you are so lucky your horse is so polite and lovely to lead, he is such a Gentleman" and I feel like saying well he didn't pop out like this, he was a pain in the backside youngster once we just put a lot of work into teaching him that dragging a human around was NOT acceptable.

Yup . . . and GreyDonkey wasn't even a youngster when I bought him and he had horrible ground manners - his good behaviour when being led is down to me growing a spine and setting some firm boundaries. He still chances his arm sometimes when tied up and excited, but he gets corrected (and quickly).

I don't happen to like being towed, shoved around, barged into, etc.

P

P.S. Oh, and I get that some horses are a work in progress . . . what I don't get is owners who make no effort at all to instill manners.

 

[zaminda]

When my pony was out on loan many years ago, I had a chuckle with his loanee, who said that someone had said to her (after watching me clip pony one day) oh isn't she hard on him, oh, but isn't he well behaved!
Lady said she almost laughed at the woman, who simply couldn't see that insisting pony does as it is told, leads to good manners! Apparently 'hard' on him is making him stand quietly when he wants to behave like a tit!
Must say my little mare is generally perfect on the ground, including for other people, but she does sometimes mess about with others!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Horse's aren't daft. They behave according to the expectations of the handler. Doesn't take long for an experienced handler to gain compliance from a horse. The problem is that when someone else is asked to bring horses in, in pairs on a wet, windy night unless the horses are well trained, even the most competent handler is put at risk.

Lovely, ex YO nearly died after a kick, all because she failed to insist that any DIY horses she handled where taught basic manners. She was too tolerant. She sometimes had 27 horses to bring in and had to crack on without messing about. The owners should have ensured their horses were safe to lead. I felt it was criminally negligent to ignore very difficult behaviour and then ask someone else to bring in, knowing the risk.

 

[Enfys]

Sometimes because they think that a foal should be a foal and leave the damn thing in a field untouched for 3 years!

Other times because they don't actually realise that their horse is badly behaved, or because they think it is cute/funny, or because they don't want to hurt Freddy, or simply don't know what to do about it.

Bad manners are a giant PITA and something that really gets me going.

 

[zaminda]

When my pony was out on loan many years ago, I had a chuckle with his loanee, who said that someone had said to her (after watching me clip pony one day) oh isn't she hard on him, oh, but isn't he well behaved!
Lady said she almost laughed at the woman, who simply couldn't see that insisting pony does as it is told, leads to good manners! Apparently 'hard' on him is making him stand quietly when he wants to behave like a tit!
Must say my little mare is generally perfect on the ground, including for other people, but she does sometimes mess about with others!

 

[oldie48]

Any horse has the potential to misbehave with another handler though. As herd animals they are used to picking up on the smallest clue, they don't want to risk getting their teeth kicked out or a leg broken so they suss out your body language just as they would with another horse and if they feel they are more assertive than you are, they are likely to test you out!

 

[PolarSkye]

Horse's aren't daft. They behave according to the expectations of the handler. Doesn't take long for an experienced handler to gain compliance from a horse. The problem is that when someone else is asked to bring horses in, in pairs on a wet, windy night unless the horses are well trained, even the most competent handler is put at risk.

Lovely, ex YO nearly died after a kick, all because she failed to insist that any DIY horses she handled where taught basic manners. She was too tolerant. She sometimes had 27 horses to bring in and had to crack on without messing about. The owners should have ensured their horses were safe to lead. I felt it was criminally negligent to ignore very difficult behaviour and then ask someone else to bring in, knowing the risk.

I completely agree with everything you have written . . . but, when you're handling someone else's horse it's hard to correct unwanted behaviour without knowing how THEY would do it or whether your reprimand might be unwanted (by the owner).

By way of an example - I will be bringing three lively ex-racers in for the rest of this week and know that two of them are cheeky - but I did make sure I asked the owner how she reprimands when they misbehave and whether I had her permission to do the same . . . they WILL try it on with me b/c they don't know me. But when I'm catching someone's horse b/c they've broken down the fence and are now where they shouldn't be and I need to move them to a safe place, I may not be able to get hold of the owner to ask about what behaviour they find acceptable, etc., and I'm wary of disciplining or reprimanding someone else's horse . . . make sense?

P

 

[stencilface]

All of ours are great to lead, bar one who we've had for 18 years. If he doesn't have the rope round his nose or a stallion chain on you don't know where you might end up, some days he's quiet as a lamb, others he has a look in his eye that says 'fancy some grass skiing?' Don't know why he is this way inclined, no amount of work has made him better, he will also barge out of the stable on occasion, once his shoulder is in front of you thats it. Mine would never dream of barging me.

 

[PolarSkye]

Any horse has the potential to misbehave with another handler though. As herd animals they are used to picking up on the smallest clue, they don't want to risk getting their teeth kicked out or a leg broken so they suss out your body language just as they would with another horse and if they feel they are more assertive than you are, they are likely to test you out!

But these horses behave in just the same way with their owners . . .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

All of ours are great to lead, bar one who we've had for 18 years. If he doesn't have the rope round his nose or a stallion chain on you don't know where you might end up, some days he's quiet as a lamb, others he has a look in his eye that says 'fancy some grass skiing?' Don't know why he is this way inclined, no amount of work has made him better, he will also barge out of the stable on occasion, once his shoulder is in front of you thats it. Mine would never dream of barging me.

But at least you know that this is the way he is and he is handled accordingly . . . we have one at ours who is led to and from the field in a chiffney - every day. He is a big boy, worked out how to use his size against his humans, but behaves perfectly in the chiffney - everyone knows that if he needs to be brought in, then he needs to wear the chiffney. End of.

P

 

[oldie48]

Sorry Polarsky what I meant was that even well trained horses can misbehave with different handlers if they feel they can get away with it but if a horse is used to barging around with it's owner then you have no chance. Actually, if an owner is happy for you to bring in their horse they should have the confidence to let you deal with it as you see fit. If one of my horses attempted to tow someone around I'd expect them to deal with it very firmly and if I didn't think they would, i'd not want them handling them.

 

[PolarSkye]

Sorry Polarsky what I meant was that even well trained horses can misbehave with different handlers if they feel they can get away with it but if a horse is used to barging around with it's owner then you have no chance. Actually, if an owner is happy for you to bring in their horse they should have the confidence to let you deal with it as you see fit. If one of my horses attempted to tow someone around I'd expect them to deal with it very firmly and if I didn't think they would, i'd not want them handling them.

Fair enough . . . sadly, though, there are owners who don't feel this way.

P

 

[Pale Rider]

Horses aren't badly behaved or well behaved, they behave, like a horse.

The problem is people who cannot get their horse to behave appropriately when humans are in the mix.

 

[PolarSkye]

Horses aren't badly behaved or well behaved, they behave, like a horse.

The problem is people who cannot get their horse to behave appropriately when humans are in the mix.

Ah - welcome to the thread . Care to elaborate? What happens when you are handling someone else's horse and have to balance your own discomfort and/or safety with offending the owner by disciplining their horse yourself? Or should I just invest in a magic wand .

P

 

[humblepie]

Can't work out how to quote - but behaving like a horse. That opens a whole new category as to different types of behaviour, for example, in the field. Some will keep to themselves and never cause any trouble, others will pile straight in and see who they can stir up.

Re the general manners - years ago a very nice lady who I got on well with had her mare next to my two horses. The mare used to basically walk all over her, no manners at all. She went off on holiday for a week and another person looked after the horse. First day, first lesson on manners. Nothing nasty just the basic do not barge around in the stable. By the end of the week that horse was so different and starting to be manageable.

 

[oldie48]

Hey, Pale Rider, I don't know which kind of horses you have but mine are the domesticated kind, been working with man for thousands of years doing all sorts of stuff. They learn pretty quickly and even understand lots of words. They learn what behaviour is acceptable and what is not, bit like kids really but bigger and stronger. Yes, of course they are still horses but they are not the same as feral horses although they retain many of the traits of the feral horse. It's all part of the deal, what they get out of it, is they work about 7 hours a week and I look after them 24/7, 365 days a year and even when they are retired. Oh, but I do expect them to "behave" themselves and not barge me about!

 

[mynutmeg]

My mare tends to actually behave much better for a new handler for a few days. She has a tendancy to be bargy although I don't let her away with it but for a new person she's a dream until she gets to know them and then she starts pushing.
Personally if someone was handling my horse for me and she started being a madame I would be quite happy for them to reprimand her in a way they see fit within reason and if I don't like the way someone would handle her/reprimand her then I don't ask them to do anythign with her.

 

[baileyxboo]

The pony were renting is disrespectful to me, he knows this. He doesn't do it with the owners, but did it to his child owner. She was leading him into the field, trying to take his headcollar off and he started running off before she even had chance, ended up dragging her down!
I had to lead him in from the arena in the rain and wind and he hated it, started spinning on me, I was actually terrified!

 

[ridefast]

What happens when you are handling someone else's horse and have to balance your own discomfort and/or safety with offending the owner by disciplining their horse yourself?

P

If I am asked to handle someone elses horses I handle them exactly the same way I handle my own, I expect them to behave, I correct them when they show undesired behaviour, and I don't give a flying fig about offending the owner. My safety comes first, if the owner doesn't like it then the owner can do it themselves. Generally by the time I'm back at a stable the horse is settled and walking quietly, and every horse I handle comes running up to see me every time from then on, so I guess I'm getting the discipline right. It's not about what the human does, it's about what works for the horse, because all horses speak the same language. (Unless there's a serious mental problem)

 

[Sarah1]

I have had the "pleasure" of handling several fellow liveries' horses over the past couple of days what with one thing and another and every single one of them was (IMHO) rude to lead. Barge-y, pull-y, constantly putting their heads down to graze and a real pain.

Kal is certainly no paragon of virtue, but he moves back out of my space when I ask him to (without me touching him) and is an absolute lamb to lead - at my shoulder or behind me, not pulling or barging or shoving and he knows that he waits until I tell him he can graze while in hand - he is too ruddy big to be towing me about all over the place - so I have taught him to be respectful when being handled/led by people.

It's such a basic thing - why don't more people do it? I see many liveries being tugged off to a nice patch of grass, or having to take ages to bring their horses in b/c they keep stopping to graze. I simply don't understand.

Rant over.

P

100% agree! You definitely don't need it when it's not your own animal either!
I have posted today about my little asbo shetland mare - she's 9.1hh but I'm sure she thinks she's 19.1hh! She's turning into a brute on the end of a lead-rope and when I took her (token) feed in to the field one evening last week she turned her bum on me & although she didn't give a 'proper' kick she flicked her heels at me - I was furious with her but also shocked! I have a 17hh (with his shoes on!) gelding who can be lead on a piece of cotton and will back away while I place his feed on the ground & have stepped back before going to eat it! I've had him since he was 4 years old and he'd never dream of turning his bum to me...
This little mare hasn't been with us a year yet and I think her previous owners were a soft touch and she's been used to getting what she wants by behaving this way when she deems it necessary - she needs to get with the new programme...fast! I think at some point previously she has been roughly treated as she's a very nervy little thing and any sudden movements send her into meltdown (unless it's from a tiny tot & then she's as quiet as a lamb?!) but nevertheless I will not tolerate bad manners, even a little pip squeak like her is as strong as an ox!

 

[pippixox]

I have noticed it is more common with some ponies, just because they are small, to get away with bad behaviour. my friend recently got a 4 year old Shetland who is tame but has barely been handled, so his manners are not good. people don't notice as much when it is a Shetland barging rather than a big horse. however, she has had him about 4 months and his manners have improves massively with just regular handling, its not rocket science!
if they lived out in fields they can behave how they like, but we need them to be respectful of our space and what we are asking them to do when they are being lead around. or people get hurt
some are really cheeky though, my friends haflinger lead out by me without a foot wrong. but her owner, who is elderly, would be dragged to the nearest patch of grass on the way to the field, she knew she could take advantage.
I agree there is no excuse for poor manners, although they will all have their moments, I cant pretend my guys are perfect, but I don't let them lead me I lead them!

 

[diamonddogs]

If I am asked to handle someone elses horses I handle them exactly the same way I handle my own, I expect them to behave, I correct them when they show undesired behaviour, and I don't give a flying fig about offending the owner. My safety comes first, if the owner doesn't like it then the owner can do it themselves..

I agree!

Mine will try it on occasionally when someone else is handling her, but I would expect the handler to make her do as she's told, specially if their safety's at stake.

I get "Oh she's a proper lady isn't she" as well, but people forget that she was a right hooligan when I first got her, but she'd have a heart attack if she was disciplined. The first day I got her she nearly squashed me against the wall, and hadn't a clue what "Over!" meant - lesson one was learned PDQ! Day 2 on her first visit to the field she dragged me everywhere and actually went up because I wouldn't let her run off.

It took about two weeks of solid ground work to get her to the point where I'd trust her with anyone else. She's not perfect, specially when it's wet and/or windy, but a quick reminder sorts her out (last Thursday we walked nearly all the way back to the field backwards because of the wind and rain!).

I could scream at the number of people who say, "Well you only work part time so you've got more time than me to do ground work" - well, FIND time!!! Manners on the ground are a hundred times more important than riding, so maybe you should sacrifice a few minutes in the saddle every day to make your horse safe for others and nice to be around!

 

[TrasaM]

I'm the proud sharer of a most mannerly cob. I've done the basic ground work with him as has his owner so he will match his pace to whatever speed you lead him at. Walk trot or halt on a loose lead rope. He's about the only horse out of the 6 on the yard who is like this.

It only takes minutes to do the basics so I also don't understand why others don't do it seeing how much safer and easier it makes them to handle. I'd like to believe that he would allow everyone else to lead him the same way.

He's also been taught to back up..voice and tap/pat on chest. We recently had a complaint from YO that she couldn't budge him when he was blocking her access to the shelter She had tried pushing him .lol. If you've ever tried to push 520 kg of low centre of gravity black cob you will know how much success she had he probably though it was some new type of massage, or knowing him, that he was standing his ground until she asked nicely.