Miss selling (or not!)

[Lipglosspukka]

If a private seller sells a horse. The description of the horse is accurate as far as they are aware.

How would it work if the horse was different in the new home? Say, they had trouble with catching when the horse was previously good to catch? Or the horse became spooky in the new environment but had been described as being not particularly spooky?

I have not sold or brought a horse. I'm just curious at how much comeback a buyer would have against a private seller, especially if the seller could evidence the horse was not previously a problem (witness statements from farrier, yard manager for example or video footage)

 

[SEL]

If a private seller sells a horse. The description of the horse is accurate as far as they are aware.

How would it work if the horse was different in the new home? Say, they had trouble with catching when the horse was previously good to catch? Or the horse became spooky in the new environment but had been described as being not particularly spooky?

I have not sold or brought a horse. I'm just curious at how much comeback a buyer would have against a private seller, especially if the seller could evidence the horse was not previously a problem (witness statements from farrier, yard manager for example or video footage)

No comeback - buyer beware as regards private sales.

 

[Trouper]

If I were really worried, I would ask the vetting vet to run the bloods from the vetting to rule out any use of drugs to alter behaviour.

As an honest seller, I would be advising the new owner to give the horse time to settle in a new environment and give information on the routine I had followed with the horse.

There really are too many imponderables in a situation like this to give much of a definitive answer.

 

[skint1]

I think there are factors that more people need to consider when they buy a new horse before claiming it has been missold either privately or by a dealer. A different environment, different feed, different rider, different tack, different workload, even a different type of grass in the field they graze- equals a different horse. The private seller probably knows the horse better and can advise on feed, tack (more likely to include it perhaps) and give a better idea of how it MIGHT behave in a range of scenarios and probably maybe possibly more invested in getting the best home for the horse but I don't think anything can be guaranteed. This is a lot of words for essentially agreeing with what Trouper has said above

 

[Casey76]

Actually I would expect small behavioural changes like that, as I would expect the horse to be anxious in a new surrounding with a new handler and routine.

If I had seen the previous owner go and catch him/her in from the field and ride sensibly, then I would just give the horse time to adjust before assuming that he was difficult to catch or spooky etc.

 

[teddypops]

Every horse I have bought has been different to what I saw and was told about it. One in particular was described as very easy to catch and not nappy. I saw this for myself when I went to try her. Unfortunately she lived alone and I stupidly didn’t think about what would happen in a herd situation! Anyway, as soon as I got her home and she made her first ever friends, she became a nightmare to catch and horribly nappy. Not mis sold, just acting differently in a different environment.

 

[MissTyc]

My friend moved her horse that she'd owned for 6 years to a different yard. Within 8 weeks he was a total nightmare. Rearing on the way to the field, bolted under saddle, bit her and generally misbehaving. All the usual checks done, found nothing. Had he been new to her, we would have suspected all sorts and been effing and blinding at the seller I bet, but she'd had him so long. She was starting to think he must have a brain tumour, but I told her to bring him back to our yard to his last known comfort zone. He arrived home, and didn't put a foot out of place again. Straight back to being cheerful, back to ridden work. Completely different yard environments, and he clearly really didn't like the new one!
They are living, sentient beings with their own life experiences and preferences. Not machines. They can usually be won round with good management, but they can be hugely affected by their environment. We'll never know what triggered my friend's horse, but personally I think it was moving from living out a mixed herd on 40 acres where there was always someone around even if out of sight, to a yard where he was stabled at night and out in a 2 acre paddock with two others during the day. The moving in and out didn't suit him; I don't think he liked his new mandated friends, and he really let loose. Quite terrifying actually.

 

[Santa’s Irish draught]

My horse was very spooky when I took her home. It’s normal behavior to be honest once it’s private seller the buyer has no come back.

 

[Batgirl]

As others have said, against a private seller, very limited.

I have a great example of an ex riding school Cob, he was my first horse, genuine novice ride in the school, to handle etc I learned everything with him. Just before I sold him I moved yards. He turned into a monster!

Had I sold him and this had happened if have been horrified! Luckily I saw it, moved him back to previous yard, was super honest when selling him but I'm sure I'd have been cursed by a buyer!

 

[Berpisc]

We had a little cob who we tried and vetted etc, lovely chap, had him a year and he couldnt settle. Spooky and tense, our yard was very quiet and he seemed unhappy. If we were at a local show he was fine. He was sold to a riding school and settled back in happily.

 

[milliepops]

i haven't been to choose and buy a horse for over 25 years but like casey I'd expect the wheels to come off a bit when a horse has a complete change of environment and handlers, so I would not expect to complain to a seller nor for them to have a case to answer.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

When advising others or making a purchase myself, I do ask the sellers to cast their mind back to when they purchased and what issues they had then, also if they moved yards and did behaviour change then at all? A decent seller will often volunteer this info when asked, but it might not cross their mind to mention as might have been a few years or so ago.

I also ask, what is the nicest thing you can say about horse, also asking ok, and the thing that really irritates you most. The latter is interesting as I've heard anything from door banging (which wasn't discussed previously) to pawing, fidgeting when plaiting, many different things. More interesting if asked when there are more family around....

Any answers are helpful answers, as if the animal suits, knowing potential foibles can really help put mind at rest.

 

[Winters100]

It always seems strange to me that people do not expect different handling, rider, routines and environment to affect the behaviour of horses. After all, when we have problems these are the first things we look to when trying to adjust the behaviour.

 

[Casey76]

My friend moved her horse that she'd owned for 6 years to a different yard. Within 8 weeks he was a total nightmare. Rearing on the way to the field, bolted under saddle, bit her and generally misbehaving. All the usual checks done, found nothing. Had he been new to her, we would have suspected all sorts and been effing and blinding at the seller I bet, but she'd had him so long. She was starting to think he must have a brain tumour, but I told her to bring him back to our yard to his last known comfort zone. He arrived home, and didn't put a foot out of place again. Straight back to being cheerful, back to ridden work. Completely different yard environments, and he clearly really didn't like the new one!
They are living, sentient beings with their own life experiences and preferences. Not machines. They can usually be won round with good management, but they can be hugely affected by their environment. We'll never know what triggered my friend's horse, but personally I think it was moving from living out a mixed herd on 40 acres where there was always someone around even if out of sight, to a yard where he was stabled at night and out in a 2 acre paddock with two others during the day. The moving in and out didn't suit him; I don't think he liked his new mandated friends, and he really let loose. Quite terrifying actually.

when I bought Tartine, I initially put her at my old yard, which was a busy riding school, and it completely blew her mind. She wouldn’t settle, in high alert mode all the time, constantly jumping at everything, impossible to tie up etc. I gave it a month, and she didn’t improve at all - if anything she was getting worse, and not the sweet calm pony I had first seen at the dealers yard. Fortunately a place became available on the same yard as Blitz and I moved her. She settled within a couple of days and she never looked back.

 

[Polos Mum]

A buyer would have no legal come back but if a seller has capacity to I've seen them take them back for the welfare of the horse - after a sensible period of trying to settle.
If the new owners environment was making the horse really unhappy for whatever reason - on occasion the old owner has had back to resell to a hopefully more suitable home.
I know of one really nice really genuine horse that was rearing in new home - he came back and was resold and as far as any of us know never reared again

 

[Upthecreek]

I really think a lot of first time horse buyers do not realise the impact the change in home and owner can have on the horse. They genuinely expect the horse to be no different to when they went to try it or saw it being ridden on the videos. They are surprised by any ‘difficult’ behaviour and often jump to the conclusion that the horse must have behaved like that in it’s previous home and it has therefore been miss sold.

 

[rabatsa]

Our RDA group bought a horse that was a complete paragon. Within two days it was a nightmare. A couple of months later and only two of us could handle it and in the field it fence walked all day. We sent it on loan to an agricultural college and it was the horse we had bought from the moment it walked off the box. We sold it to the college as living in full time suited it rather than our out full time.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

My now oldie had a complete personality change when I moved yards. If I’d just bought him I’d think I’d have been miss-sold. Turns out he hated that yard (he was right) and 12 months later and move to another yard and never looked back.

 

[criso]

The rights are less than buying from a dealer but there are some. They would have to knowingly lie, for example if they said the horse was good to catch and it had always been difficult and this could be shown then the buyer might have a case. If I sold my horse as non spooky, a quick look at my facebook page would show lots of posts joking about what he's spooked at today.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

From the other perspective - I once bought a horse for meat money because it was " impossible to catch , bargy , spooky, nappy and wouldn't load " and the owners were thoroughly fed up with it but couldn't sell it ( mostly because they couldn't catch it to show to anyone ! ) . It was on a yard where I taught a client and I had witnessed the horse displaying all these behaviours on numerous occasions over many months with various other people ( owner , YO and other ' helpful ' friends ! ) . It was a nice , well bred animal so , I reasoned , if I put in the time and the hard work then maybe , just maybe , I could improve things - could be a bit of an interesting project I thought , and worth a punt if I took the long view ! I was told that if I wanted him I had to pay upfront and go and catch him and transport him myself , and I wasn't getting my money back if I failed or changed my mind ! So the deal was done . And it took me 20 minutes to catch him ( in a 20 acre field ) , 10 minutes to load him , got him home and he never put a foot wrong from strolling off the wagon . It was the biggest anti climax ever !
He spent the rest of his life with us , was super to ride and handle , came to call ( even if it wasn't him you were calling ! ) , loaded himself on and off the wagon and rarely came home from a show without a rosette - he was the one everyone wanted to ride in the ring .
And I've no idea what the moral of that story is …..
...… but I was DEFINITELY mis sold that horse !

 

[Winters100]

And I've no idea what the moral of that story is …..
...… but I was DEFINITELY mis sold that horse !

Haha - brilliant! Not quite as extreme, but I bought one of mine from our YO, he told me that the horse was great, except that he was impossible to catch. Just a bit more attention to the problem (mainly going to him in the field, giving a treat and leaving) and within a few weeks he was coming to investigate as soon as he saw me. Now easy as any of them to catch, but I am grateful that it was pointed out to me.

Likewise I sold a horse who was too much for me, and I was very open with the buyer, telling them how spooky he was and advising them not to hack. As a braver and more skilled rider than I am he had no problems at all, and called me a few moths later to tell me that the horse was happily doing everything he wanted, "sometimes not the bravest, but no problem at all".

Sometimes it just takes the right fit.

 

[Caol Ila]

Our RDA group bought a horse that was a complete paragon. Within two days it was a nightmare. A couple of months later and only two of us could handle it and in the field it fence walked all day. We sent it on loan to an agricultural college and it was the horse we had bought from the moment it walked off the box. We sold it to the college as living in full time suited it rather than our out full time.

Was this Gypsum's doppleganger? Could have been. She wanted to start her own game show, 'Who wants to be on this livery yard.' If she liked a yard, she was the easiest horse in the world to handle and super easy to manage. If she didn't, all hell broke loose. She could be hot, spooky, not tie, not lead, and she fencewalked like a mad fencewalking thing. I learned certain triggers over the years and would avoid moving her to yards that I knew wouldn't work, but there was always an x-factor, triggers I couldn't see because I'm not a horse. Yard moves were always like Russian Roulette, even after 20 years. I don't think I could have ever sold her.

 

[IveRunOutOfNamesToThinkOf]

Sold as seen comes to mind.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Sold as seen comes to mind.

Years ago when I was selling, on my receipts I used to put:
Sold as seen and tried x times, with/without veterinary opinion, with/without purchaser's expert advisor.
(Delete as appropriate) and ensure they saw it.
Only 2 did I purchase back within a short time and oddly they were both non pedigree animals which I'd sold reasonably locally.

 

[sport horse]

The other side is the seller's rights? I rarely sell a horse but when I do I have 'vetted' the buyers and on several occasions I have had to say that I am not prepared to sell the horse to the buyer - it is not always well received!!

 

[stormox]

The other side is the seller's rights? I rarely sell a horse but when I do I have 'vetted' the buyers and on several occasions I have had to say that I am not prepared to sell the horse to the buyer - it is not always well received!!

I agree here - does the seller have the right to pick and choose? Im interested because 15 or so years ago I was moving house and selling a really sharp pony - fine with a good rider, talented but quick and sharp.
I had 2 sisters in their 20s who had a cob on the same yard want to buy.Both were incapacitated in some way - one had spina bifida and the other had learning difficulties.
I didnt want to sell to them and said no but their mother then got involved and threatened to report me for discrimination. So all 3 were against me, in the end I sold to them .... moved and tried to forget the whole episode.
Years later I heard it hadnt ended well and one of the girls had ended up in hospital........ what could I have done ?

 

[Upthecreek]

I agree here - does the seller have the right to pick and choose? Im interested because 15 or so years ago I was moving house and selling a really sharp pony - fine with a good rider, talented but quick and sharp.
I had 2 sisters in their 20s who had a cob on the same yard want to buy.Both were incapacitated in some way - one had spina bifida and the other had learning difficulties.
I didnt want to sell to them and said no but their mother then got involved and threatened to report me for discrimination. So all 3 were against me, in the end I sold to them .... moved and tried to forget the whole episode.
Years later I heard it hadnt ended well and one of the girls had ended up in hospital........ what could I have done ?

Of course you have the right to choose who buys your horse. They could have threatened me with discrimination all they liked, I would not sell to anyone that I did not think could offer the right home and that’s my prerogative as the owner. There’s a multitude of reasons that a seller could feel a potential buyer is unsuitable and it happens all the time, especially right now when demand is outstripping supply. You don’t need to give a reason, just say you’ve sold to someone else.

 

[stormox]

As they were on the same yard as me I could hardly lie and say Id sold the pony. I just said I didnt think they were suitable.
But its not a nice feeling having 3 people ganging up on you - they were actually rather nasty- so I tend to think 'tough shite' and hoped theyd learned a lesson.

 

[PurBee]

Actually I would expect small behavioural changes like that, as I would expect the horse to be anxious in a new surrounding with a new handler and routine.

If I had seen the previous owner go and catch him/her in from the field and ride sensibly, then I would just give the horse time to adjust before assuming that he was difficult to catch or spooky etc.

my mare was a complete ‘sweetie’ with her 1 previous owner who owned her since a babe. She came to me and was ….err extremely difficult! Bites, kicks, the whole shebang. She wanted what she was used to and didnt want a new home/owner.

It took months for her to settle. Looking back i needed to be firmer with her. She knew she could take advantage of me and did.
Now she’s a sweetie…as much as welsh D’s /arabs can be!?

 

[Snowfilly]

I agree here - does the seller have the right to pick and choose? Im interested because 15 or so years ago I was moving house and selling a really sharp pony - fine with a good rider, talented but quick and sharp.
I had 2 sisters in their 20s who had a cob on the same yard want to buy.Both were incapacitated in some way - one had spina bifida and the other had learning difficulties.
I didnt want to sell to them and said no but their mother then got involved and threatened to report me for discrimination. So all 3 were against me, in the end I sold to them .... moved and tried to forget the whole episode.
Years later I heard it hadnt ended well and one of the girls had ended up in hospital........ what could I have done ?

The seller has absolute right to pick and choose, and I’ve turned plenty of people down in the past. Not only for their own safety but the good of the horse as well.

‘I’m sorry, I don’t think you’re a good match for X and I won’t be selling him to you’ is all you need to say.