Miss sold a 'first pony' where do I stand?

[Coranning]

Hello,
I would like some advice please on where I stand legally.

I bought a pony from this 'perfect' advert, he was sold to me as a first pony, I have all messages stating this and how he is, however this is not the case. I told the seller that my daughter had lost all confidence, she has been thrown off, bolted with reared, bitten etc and wanted something that was a true first pony, something she could learn with. The seller said that this pony was that pony.

The seller first of all failed to tell me he is a fence trasher, this is not the problem as I managed to get him to stay put with our other pony, he does not have any respect for fencing, of any sort including electric. As we all have our own paddocks him trashing the fence could of been an issue, i explained this to the seller and got a reply 'hes a cheeky ******' , not really any sort of advice.

He has been at our place now just over a week, he keeps bolting away from my daughter when she is leading him (he did this whilst we were there when viewing him, but seller blamed it on a strimmer), but now when ever he doesn't want to do something he is flicking his front legs around, threatening to rear, bolting off taking leadrope with him as my 9 year old daughter is simply not strong enough for him. We collected his tack on friday of last week, took the tack to our yard on sunday afternoon and after a fair struggle to get him into our school he proceeded to kick my daughter twice with his front leg! All we had done is ask him to stand in the school, my daughter was holding him and i had the saddle, he kicked out twice and then bolted through the school fencing and away.

I was fuming on sunday, my daughter was heartbroken and without speaking to the seller I wrote an advert out for him, stating that he is not a first pony as was sold to me and needed a confident handler and to be brought into work, I advertised him as a project. Within 10 mins of the advert going live, the sellers friend jumped all over my post stating I didnt know what I was doing, that I must have done something to him, he was never advertised as a first pony etc etc. The comments became so vile I removed the advert.

The sellers friend pointed out to me that I have only had him a week, this is true, but how many times does he need to bolt away from my daughter or hurt her further before I decide to do something about it? My daughter now refuses to do anything with him or go near him as she is too scared, certainly not the confidence giver I was sold.

The seller contacted me yesterday and after I have explained everything he has done (all through messages so i do have the proof from both sides) she has blamed it on a handful of chaf he has had!! one handful!!

The sellers friend then messaged me yesterday, saying i should try different tack, my response, why was i asked to pay extra for his tack, if it is not correct? The saddle didnt get anywhere near him before he kicked out, I was holding it.

The seller wants to come and see the pony today to figure out why he is behaving like this. My question is am I able to take her to small claims court etc if she will not buy the pony back? As I am unable to advertise him myself now without been jumped all over and will practically have to give him away as I cant advertise him using the same advert I bought from as that is not the pony I am seeing.

Any advice is much appreciated, this pony was for my daughters christmas present, shes now terrifed to go near him.

 

[be positive]

The seller has at least offered to come over and see whether it can be sorted out, one handful of chaff should not make him behave badly but can encourage a greedy pony to look for food or treats so I would stop feeding anything until it is required, if he stays with you that long!

I think even the best ponies can and will take advantage of a child on the ground until there is a relationship established between them, I have one here that pushed his luck initially but is now easy for his young rider to catch, lead, groom but she still struggles to fully tack up as he puts his head up when the bridle goes on, this is getting better but it has taken months not weeks to get to this stage.

I would not let a nervous child have total control of any pony on the ground in the first few weeks as that is when issues show up, sometimes it is just a settling to a new home thing, getting a proper routine established, gaining trust for both pony and child takes time, he showed he could take off when being led yet you expected him to be led in at his new home by your daughter from the start.

The fence trashing probably upset him as much, if not more than you, he may not be used to being behind electric and alone, I have known many that cannot cope so would give him the benefit of the doubt over that, it has given you a bad start from day 1 and may well be contributing to him behaving badly in general.

I would not expect to take a pony into a strange school and have a 9 year old hold it for tacking up the first time I would not be happy that he kicked but at that point I would have taken over and told him off not continued to let her hold him, tie him up somewhere on the yard and get him accepting that is the place for grooming, tacking up etc. he needs to know his boundaries and you need to set those boundaries in a fair and consistent way before writing him off and certainly before you can go to court saying he was missold, I hope the previous owner offers to take him back and gives you a refund for everyones sake, if so please go slowly with the next one, expect some bad behaviour from the start as they will nearly all test you or be unsettled in some way.

I hope this helps and is not too critical, I have dealt with so many "naughty" ponies over the years and very few are bad they are just cheeky, unsettled, upset or confused in their new homes, the main thing from my experience is working out which one you have and dealing appropriately with them.

 

[Casey76]

Are you doing any ground work with him (and by that I mean you, rather than your daughter)? How did you reprimand him for striking out? If he keeps pulling away from your daughter, why are you still allowing her to lead him? Every time he does it, and gets away with it is just instilling in him that he can get away with it.

What is he like to ride?, does your daughter get on with him ridden? If so, I would suggest that for the time being you do all of the handling on the ground, until he is reminded of his manners, and your daughter rides.

 

[ester]

At least the seller does sound like they have some concern for why the pony might be acting like it is. How old is the pony? What is the chaff? If it is molassed or contains alfalfa the seller might not be wrong!

Yes you prob could go to the small claims court but it would be sensible to wait and have a frank discussion with the seller today. I suspect the sellers friend was surprised to see him for sale again so soon and so inappropriately lashed out as you hadn't contacted them in the first instance to tell them of the issues/asked if they would have him back as some people do actually care where their ponies end up.

 

[twiggy2]

striking out and repeatedly bolting is not first pony material-I would want my money back and if the seller is that concerned they can sell again with some support for new owners during the move

 

[9tails]

If your daughter is nervous handling him, pretty much only a braindead pony wouldn't react to a nervous handler. I agree with the above posters suggesting that you handle the pony for now while your daughter rides and keep her on the leadrein for now.

 

[paddi22]

i have a perfect 'first pony' but it would turn into a monster if given a handful of chaff, or even if it saw a kid with food come near it. So don't discount that. Wait to see what the seller says when they see the pony. Some tiny ponies are just little ******* but settle when worked and with tougher handling.

 

[epeters91]

I agree with the above. You should really have contacted the seller before readvertising to ask to send the pony back at that point the ponys reputation hasn't been publically ruined and the seller could have worked on what was wrong before readvertising.

If the pony did charge off on it's viewing I'd have maybe gone for a second viewing to see him again before buying to make sure the behaviour wasn't repeated. In future I would say if possible try to get a trial period before buying where your daughter and the pony can get used to each other before it is moved to a new yard as lots of horses can become unsettled when moving to a new yard with new owners they don't really know.

 

[Coranning]

Thank you for the replies, the pony is not just bolting with my daughter, he is bolting when anyone including myself and the girl i share the yard with leads him. Sorry i should have said that.
After the pony had kicked my daughter, i did tell him off, he then gave me rope burn after trying to rear before taking off through the fence.
I hate the fact he will be passed around, but if the seller was honest in the first place I would not have bought him.
Can i also just add, when i say a handful of chaff, i dont mean my daughter took him a handful, he had one handful in a bucket at the same time the other ponies had there feed. No one has given him treats etc, as not to lead to biting, none of the ponies get treats from pockets, handfuls here and there, sorry if it sounded like she had been sneaking handfuls thats not the case. The seller is saying that the handful of chaff the pony had in a bucket the night before had caused the issue.

 

[smja]

Some ponies are hugely sensitive to feed - it's a possibility.

Is he actually bolting, as in no regard for his own safety, or is he just running off? It's an extreme reaction, granted, but many equines get upset at changes in surroundings/companions/handlers/grazing.

The fact that the previous owner is concerned and wants to come and see the behaviour suggests to me that it really is out of character - if that's what pony was always like she'd have no reason to want to get involved now.

How experienced are you at handling?

 

[ester]

It is entirely possible that the seller saw none of this behaviour

what was the chaff?, I always assumed it was in a bucket but what the ingredients are do matter.

how old is the pony? How big is he- I assume by bolting you mean running off but I would think most adults would be able to pin down most small first ponies! Is he welsh?

 

[cally6008]

Did you have the pony vetted ?

Did you have bloods taken ?

 

[nikicb]

I also wonder how much grass he is on. I still have my small pony on limited grazing as the grass is still growing with all this mild weather. If he is that sensitive to his feed, he may well be sensitive to grass. My little Welshie is the worst behaved of all mine, and he is cheeky and will test any child. Once on side though he is perfect, as long as he is on the LR when ridden.

Is he welsh?

 

[Clodagh]

A bite of chaff, or too much grass, should not make a perfect first pony into the monster you describe. If you can afford it get a solicitor to write to the seller. I do think it is only fair to let them come and see him first though, and they might offer to take him back. Good luck.

 

[Orca]

A riding stables I know of offers a 'home ed' pony club, where children can learn handling, riding and stable management. The ponies there are proven as reliable with children and are accustomed to forgiving nervousness. Is there something like this near you? It sounds as though your daughter needs her faith restored and confidence boosted. A course like that might even be a nice Christmas present for her after what has happened?

Regarding the pony, I would expect moving in nerves and potential silliness. However, striking out is potentially dangerous and kicking and bolting too. The problem with the bolting is that you saw this behaviour and still chose that pony. The excuse given might be valid but what if a strimmer started as your daughter was leading him or even aboard? His 'reaction to a strimmer' would indicate that he is not a 'bomb proof' first pony type, unfortunately.

Overall, he doesn't sound like a good choice for a first pony and I don't think he should have been advertised as such. False advertising does give you right to recourse but the previous owners could equally say that you were aware of at least some of his difficult behaviour. I do hope they choose to accept his return anyway.

 

[ester]

A bite of chaff, or too much grass, should not make a perfect first pony into the monster you describe. If you can afford it get a solicitor to write to the seller. I do think it is only fair to let them come and see him first though, and they might offer to take him back. Good luck.

No but it might have meant that the seller didn't realise it wasn't first pony material until it was put in that sort of situation, it is possible it was quite saintly at it's old home. I do think the sellers need to be given a chance here and I would have been pretty :eek3: to see a pony for sale I only sold a week ago if the buyers had not contacted me first to explain the situation/ask for advice/ask me to take the pony back.

 

[Amicus]

No but it might have meant that the seller didn't realise it wasn't first pony material until it was put in that sort of situation, it is possible it was quite saintly at it's old home. I do think the sellers need to be given a chance here and I would have been pretty :eek3: to see a pony for sale I only sold a week ago if the buyers had not contacted me first to explain the situation/ask for advice/ask me to take the pony back.

Very much this, give the seller a chance.

 

[Doormouse]

My daughters pony is 20 years old, 12hh and is a saint with a small jockey on her.

Her nickname at home is the 'White Witch'! She is 12hh of pure venom with adults and pretty unkind to my daughter on the floor. She has very few manners being lead, will take advantage of children and adults alike when it suits her but is very good in her stable with children. She flattened the dentist last week by standing up and plunging at him half way through having her teeth done. He was most surprised, I had warned him! She has to be twitched to have blood taken and pulling her mane is a no go!

To give you a good example, yesterday I was leading her and my ex racehorse in from the field when my daughter fell flat on her face in the mud. I turned round with both of them to go and help her, the ex racehorse was nuzzling her to get up because he was worried she was crying, the pony very nearly trampled on her trying to get to some grass!

My daughter is only 4 but to be honest if she was 9 she still wouldn't be able to lead the pony, I struggle some days!

The big thing however is that she is a complete saint when my daughter is on her, I can lunge her, she can ride her off the lead rein anywhere, she is awesome and I can forgive her anything for that.

Ponies are funny things, very different from horses and actually need quite a bit of skill to understand and deal with, especially when they are unsettled. Remember they are incredibly brave and when frightened it often comes out as aggression.

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

My son's first loan pony could be a miserable witch. She didn't like adult authority, particularly mine! She would never load for me but as soon as son took the lead rope she went in. Not a cuddly pony but well behaved to catch, ride and for him to handle.

April can be awkward to catch and off the lead isn't such an angel! Small ponies can be quirky and given an inch can take a mile. The important thing is to consider what you deem acceptable behaviour. Rearing, kicking, biting, striking out and taking off when leading would all be things I would say no to.

Settling a pony, particularly kids ponies, is vital and therefore the first week or so I've handled them and taken them for "walkies" before the child does.

I hope that you manage to resolve the issues you've been having. If the old owner is coming to see the pony then at least they can see what problems you've had.

 

[Shay]

I would echo what the last two posters have said - kids ponies can be interesting! They are not small horses and just don't think the same.

Some elements of your post OP make me think you might not be very experienced with kids ponies. But some bits make me think you may have more experience. There were some fairly classic early mistakes most of which other posters have already mentioned. But the bottom line is that your daughter has had a rough first experience and you need to keep her safe.

What happens next is up to you and your family. The seller may take him back - I would if he were one of mine. Whatever has happened to him and why, he is clearly not a happy bunny right now. But not all sellers would be able to do that. (or minded to). If this was a private seller then it is really difficult to get recourse through small claims. If it was a dealer then the Sale of Goods Act applies and you can go to trading standards.

Otherwise you are stuck with pass him on or work it out. The seller may be able to help somewhat with that. You may be able to send him to a dealer to sell. Clearly you won't be able to sell him yourself - not because of what happened when you advertised him but because you cannot show him to advantage to a buyer! Otherwise look at instructors with kid pony experience. Your local PC. Perhaps also something natural horsemanship based. Get the tack fit checked - and be prepared to replace it is needed. Loads of ground work. Lots of boundaries. The rough ones on the ground can be the absolute diamonds once they are handled correctly. But if your daughter's prospective relationship with him is destroyed beyond repair then you need to move him on one way or the other. If that is the case perhaps look for the next one on share or loan? The really good first ponies almost never come on the market; and my advice to anyone looking for one is to find them through word of mouth.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Very much this, give the seller a chance.

Totally agree with this. A week really isn't anything in the grand scheme of things. I remember my boy came flying off the box like a possessed dragon when I first got him and was on high alert for a fair while after. It's par for the course with new horses and whilst I'm not one to handle them with kid gloves I do give them a little leeway for the first couple of months, although I'd be sure to nip any bad behaviour in the bud immediately, either myself or if I couldn't, by getting the previous owner or instructor to help.

 

[ester]

Any update OP?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

striking out and repeatedly bolting is not first pony material-I would want my money back and if the seller is that concerned they can sell again with some support for new owners during the move

yep, you asked for something quiet, and it is not quiet, I would suggest you ask vendor to bring your cash and a trailer,the pony is never going to suit.

 

[mirage]

It does sound as thoufh the seller is concerned if she has suggested coming out to see him. The one time I was sold a dud, the seller refused to answer the phone at all. Ponies can react badly to change,my saintly a first ridden was an absolute cow on the ground for the first few weeks. I honestly thought that I'd never be able to trust the children to bring her in or handle her without me being on hand. She would bite,kick,pull faces,put her head up so they couldn't tack her up,and generally be horrid. Once she settled and knew her place, she was a doddle, the girls do everything with her and she is no trouble.
However,she is about to go out on loan,and I have warned her loaners what she can be like,and how she might push her luck,and I am quite prepared to have to go to her new home and give her a talking too if need be. I'd put money on her trying it on to see what she can get away with,as she is an old mare who knows her own mind.
Mine is being loaned via word of mouth, I never advertised her,plus our current pony and the new one are also from word of mouth,in my experience,it is the best way to aquire a good one.

 

[Meandtheboys]

I am sorry but just over 1 week at a new yard with new owners............to me it sounds like you have done so much too quickly. My very lazy quiet horse who I bred became un-ridable when I moved yards, it has taken him weeks to settle a bit and because he was still dangerous I have moved yards again and he is back to his normal self!! - what I am saying is give the pony a chance and don't state mis sold, if I was the seller and read this I would be pretty pi**ed off especially if I was being honest and pony was acting out of character.

 

[twiggy2]

I really dont get the giving leeway for a few weeks (or even days) what happens if you want to go to a show or the pony goes to camp?
I always used to walk the ponies in traffic and lunge them with and without kids on board but that was to make sure the ponies did not produce any surprises.

 

[YasandCrystal]

There is a big difference in a pony going to a show with its current rider/owner and being sold and moving yards and being handled by a new owner. There is a relationship and trust to be built on both sides. The pony is missing its stable companions and routine and everything is new to it, so yes it does in my opinion need to be given some leeway to settle in and understand its new surroundings. Striking out is a classic stress/fear reaction. My WB does this even now when something new is introduced he feels fearful of.
I would take the seller up on the offer of coming out and see what happens. No horse/pony is a machine and unless you go for an absolute dope there will in my opinion always be some settling in time. Think about it in terms of yourself moving house/area and jobs at the same time, some stress to be expected until everything becomes familiar.

 

[paddi22]

I really dont get the giving leeway for a few weeks (or even days) what happens if you want to go to a show or the pony goes to camp?

some ponies just find life changes more stressful than others, completely depends on the horse. Some suit getting into a work routine, while i've other that i'd just handwalk for a week till they settle. And a pony going to a show or camp with previous owner is completely different to one going with a complete stranger who might be a bit nervy around it.

 

[twiggy2]

There is a big difference in a pony going to a show with its current rider/owner and being sold and moving yards and being handled by a new owner. There is a relationship and trust to be built on both sides. The pony is missing its stable companions and routine and everything is new to it, so yes it does in my opinion need to be given some leeway to settle in and understand its new surroundings. Striking out is a classic stress/fear reaction. My WB does this even now when something new is introduced he feels fearful of.
I would take the seller up on the offer of coming out and see what happens. No horse/pony is a machine and unless you go for an absolute dope there will in my opinion always be some settling in time. Think about it in terms of yourself moving house/area and jobs at the same time, some stress to be expected until everything becomes familiar.

some ponies just find life changes more stressful than others, completely depends on the horse. Some suit getting into a work routine, while i've other that i'd just handwalk for a week till they settle. And a pony going to a show or camp with previous owner is completely different to one going with a complete stranger who might be a bit nervy around it.

I agree (to a point-I would expect them to be on their toes but not dangerous or rude unless a youngster) but a pony that finds changes to be so stressful is unlikely to be a first pony, kids swop ponies at camp-borrow each others to go to camp, a first true pony is not going to freak out because it is placed somewhere new.
Also the feed issue-my daughters first pony could not even be fed a general vitamin supplement as the sugar made her spooky, she did not bolt/kick or strike out. Non of which are first pony attributes.

 

[Dry Rot]

Thre is an interesting post on the Tough Love thread about how a pony can be sold and the owner will then be on the phone for the next few weeks asking if they can return it! After the settling down period, the new owner generally says they will not part with the pony for anything as it is the best ever. That rung true with me because we have just gone through the same experience but with an owner who over estimated her abilities taking on a green 4yo. I doubt whether any money would buy that pony now. They are not washing machines nor refrigerators and I really don't understand why anyone would sell them with a guarantee!