Modern livery - adequate?

[Nudibranch]

I am not talking about all yards by any means. But GG's comments on the AM thread in Veterinary made me think. Plus driving past what seems to be a very rare thing these days - what looked like a really well set up livery yard (near Edinburgh by the way). The fields were well fenced, grazed with pairs or small groups, and they were really good sized fields. No lone horses, no tiny paddocks, no miles of tangled webs of tape. Contrast that with a nearby local place where the paddocks are tiny, dangerously fenced and very, very horse-sick.

I know not everyone has access to the perfect dream setup but I have asked before and I will ask again, is it morally and ethically right to keep horses like this? Nobody in their right mind would try to keep a great dane in a one-bed tower block apartment so why is it acceptable to turn out horses in tiny paddocks, or to have to stable for long periods to save the grazing? Very, very few equines these days work anywhere near hard enough to compensate for it. I'm not talking about horses being kept hunt fit, or who are competing hard - these are hairy cobs, small ponies, youngsters, etc, etc. Just because there is no alternative doesn't make it acceptable and judging by the number of shares/loans/free to a good homes clogging the internet maybe horse ownership has become a little bit too casual. Just a thought....

 

[wench]

Sometimes you can be limited on where you live, and your budget.

Yard last year was very good, but due to the location, there was no choice but to be stables most of the winter. The land was not over stocked at all, but just turned to mud if a horse so much as looked at it! Hacking was also bad due to no off road access and busy roads. I would have loved to have been on one of the yards further away with top class facilities, but didn't have the money to pay for it.

 

[Nudibranch]

But it often doesn't come down to not having top-class facilities - in the two examples I gave, the inadequate yard is clearly due to the YO taking on far too many liveries for the land available. That's not acceptable imo and the owners shouldn't be subjecting their horses to it. Not even muddy fields, but tiny paddocks with bald patches and long, rank, soiled grass which is in dire need of topping and harrowing. Goodness knows how they manage worm control. If there aren't basic needs met then perhaps more people should consider whether horses are the right hobby.

 

[dominobrown]

You can be limited, but I keep mine at an amazing livery yard, managed to bypass the waiting list as I used to work there and help out if they are stuck, and drive past another yard to get there. All year turnout, good facilities and staff, and beautifully maintained so for an extra £5 a week is nothing for the extra work they put in.

 

[hcm88]

If you can't afford to keep a horse in suitable conditions then you can't afford to own a horse and therefore shouldn't do, IMO. I know 'suitable conditions' is very subjective for each person though, and I'm only really referring to the extremes as if the horse is happy/healthy I've no place to judge how another keeps their horse. But, in my opinion I would rather sell my horses than keep them in such a place. I wouldn't stand for no turnout/cramped turnout/no grass/cramped stables etc (but then I have friends who don't believe turnout is a necessity for their horses, so its a matter of opinion).

 

[be positive]

In many areas there are too many horses on too little grazing but it comes down to finances, most people want good facilities, at least an arena to ride in £20k plus, access to some off road hacking, a stable £1k plus, storage, tack room etc, acres of decent turnout £10k per acre, not counting the house required for the YO to live in, other expenses such as electric, water, insurance, maintenance but they want it at a minimal price.
Most yards can barely cover costs, if they want to invest or get back some of the capital invested they would have to charge far more than they do, in some areas people will pay but if there is a cheaper option they often choose that until they realise that cutting corners costs in other ways, for the average DIY of £30 per week it just doesn't stack up as a profitable business so the YO cram in more as they find if they charge a sensible rate the owners move to cheaper options, yes some people will pay but judging by the number of threads on here most are looking for a bargain and the horses are the ones that end up shut in, turned out on mud patches or kicked because they are crammed in to tiny paddocks.
To buy a couple of acres, put on a stable, hard standing, arena, stores etc would cost thousands, at £30 per week it would take years to pay for that investment but that is the reality for most yards they run at a break even if they are lucky.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

A well known show centre has the most appalling turnout, tiny strips. No way could a horse have a good run in it. Seeing mine come galloping, bucking, squealing to the gate tonight, I am grateful for where I am. I've never seen the 'perfect' yard, although I know there's an idyllic place not far, but you'd need to seriously well off to be there. I'd love my own land, just a couple of acres and NO barbed wire!

 

[charlie76]

I have a livery yard. At the moment I have three horses in an eight acre paddock, seven horses in a ten acre paddock and two in a five acre paddock .
The horses that are in the ten acre are out all day, the others for half a day with exercise in the afternoon.I rotate my paddock regularly and we seem to have a huge amount of grass this year.
I do have two sycamores in the eight acre paddock which I have fenced off and pick the seeds up daily. Still worries me though. ��

I hate little square patches! We poo pick daily which is hard on our big paddocks but we love it like it.

 

[pinkypug1]

I pay more to be at the best yard in my area as my horses welfare is paramount! Nearby yards are cheaper but facilities & turnout are pretty poor. I wouldn't keep my horse where 24/7 turnout in small herds wasn't offered, as individual turnout & 6 months+ per year stabling is not acceptable, healthy or natural for any horse IMO.

 

[criso]

What surprises me is how many people want single turnout and think it's for the best, at least round here. If the demand is for single turnout and a yard decides to meet that demand, then you will end up with postage stamp size plots.

In some cases these are the most expensive yards with the 'best' facilities.

 

[scotlass]

I am not talking about all yards by any means. But GG's comments on the AM thread in Veterinary made me think. Plus driving past what seems to be a very rare thing these days - what looked like a really well set up livery yard (near Edinburgh by the way). The fields were well fenced, grazed with pairs or small groups, and they were really good sized fields. No lone horses, no tiny paddocks, no miles of tangled webs of tape. Contrast that with a nearby local place where the paddocks are tiny, dangerously fenced and very, very horse-sick.

I know not everyone has access to the perfect dream setup but I have asked before and I will ask again, is it morally and ethically right to keep horses like this? Nobody in their right mind would try to keep a great dane in a one-bed tower block apartment so why is it acceptable to turn out horses in tiny paddocks, or to have to stable for long periods to save the grazing? Very, very few equines these days work anywhere near hard enough to compensate for it. I'm not talking about horses being kept hunt fit, or who are competing hard - these are hairy cobs, small ponies, youngsters, etc, etc. Just because there is no alternative doesn't make it acceptable and judging by the number of shares/loans/free to a good homes clogging the internet maybe horse ownership has become a little bit too casual. Just a thought....

So many recent factors have fundamentally changed the perception of livery. Historic threads on here have reminisced about the days where horses all lived out together, only came into stables in the worst of weather and rugs were made of canvas or jute. The blame / claim culture has sent insurance premiums sky high and more access to information about illnesses such as grass sickness and EAM understandably leave owners increasingly paranoid about turnout. Then there's the decreasing availability of large acreage of land, huge amounts of which are swallowed up by development.

The yard that the OP describes (whichever one it is) - on the outskirts of Edinburgh - is an interesting example, as whilst there are a few new yards that have started in the area (including one very exciting one just about to be completed in East Lothian) - Edinburgh, by and large (again, no shortage of previous examples on this forum) and with only minimal exceptions - contains a disproportionate number of crazy and (in a couple of cases) downright dangerous yard managers when it comes to turnout and management of livery horses.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Agree with the OP. One winter I seriously considered either selling or sending my 3 horses 140 miles away to a friend because the area I moved to, only had yards with tiny paddocks for pairs of horses which meant that for weeks on end there was no turnout at all. It was unacceptable and I have little sympathy for people who say they cannot find good, safe turnout where they live.
I've seen some smart yards with say, 10 acres divided into 15 paddocks and keeping 30+ horses . To keep that number of horses in one paddock of 10 acres would be a recipe for disaster. If owners refused to give such yards their custom, this awful practice would be less common.

Owning a horse isn't a right. If it was simply the case of having the right, I'd have some geese, but tough luck for me, I haven't the right environment to keep them.

 

[HaffiesRock]

My ponies are moving house in a few weeks to somewhere they are going to just love! Current livery yard has become too overstocked over the couple of years I have been there and their field now just isn't big enough for them to live out 24/7 (used to rotate fields but now just have the one) I too cannot wait to see them galloping around as they cant really at the minute. The new place is 4 acres with a track around the edge and paddocks in the middle, it also has a huge field shelter and little yard area, just for me and my 2 ponies. Looking at the current place in comparison, I actually feel ashamed that I made them live there for so long I hope they forgive me when they see the new place

 

[BeingKate]

I think in a smaller paddock there is much more scope for injury too. A horse tries to let off steam, and by the time they get up any sort of speed they have to skid to a stop and whip around again causing so many problems.

I am super lucky as we have a beautiful yard all to ourselves and the boys are in a 6 acre paddock with a field shelter and all have foaling box sized stables for when they come in at night (which is only over winter)

I have been on a large scale livery where the care was second to none, facilities amazing, and fields were I wouldn't say tiny but certainly not big - I lost a lot more shoes there and had more cuts and grazes to deal with than I do now.

 

[webble]

Hmmm tough one I live on the Wirral where there is a huge population of horses and some pretty awful yards. I am lucky in that mine is private just me and the owner. We have 2.5 acres for 2 ponies which is a lot compared to some places near by but currently it looks like it wouldnt do as we have clay soil and parts of it are a bog

 

[abb123]

Hmm.

I moved from an area where winter day time turn out was expected and very much the norm to one where it was normal for no winter turn out at all. Some of it was down to the ground being very boggy but most of it was down to either the culture (no one turns out so it must be ok and therefore the YOs get away with it!) or simply being overstocked.

Personally I don't think it is acceptable to not provide some sort of turnout in the winter, even if that is just a small area with hard standing/gravel/wood chip. It doesn't cost that much and it lasts for years. Horses need social contact and movement and that is a basic right.

So no, I think some modern livery yards are are not providing adequately for the needs of horses.

I ended up moving back to my original area and very much appreciating it!

 

[paulineh]

"What do horses want"

1) A safe place to graze and wonder around. Large enough for them to have a good canter/gallop around.
2) Somewhere safe to shelter from any weather.
3) Somewhere to come into if they are ill or injured. For the farrier / Vet to come and be dry. To be separated at feed time. To go to be clipped if need be.
4) Company.

"What they do not WANT" is
1) an outdoor and indoor school.
2)Miles of X-country fences or tons of show jumps.
3) Wash down rooms etc
4) Running water or electricity.

What did people do years ago when such lavish places were not around. We cared for our horses as horses. We schooled out on a ride and put a few jumps up in the field or made them in the woods.

I have a friend that has 2.5 acres and on it she has 5 horses. The 2.5 acres is divided into 3 fields, each has a field shelter, plus a hard standing area where there is a large container. She does not have running water other than a stream that runs at the edge of the larger field, so carries buckets of water to the troughs in the other 2 fields. She does not have electricity either. But her horses are healthy and want for nothing. The land is well looked after too.

I personally would not want to be at a livery yard.

 

[leflynn]

Having been on an overgrazed yard and then moving to a much nicer yard, when looking there are many places that say they have great grazing and its awful tbh, sparse, overly large fields or badly fenced etc.

Thankfully where I am now is a super yard and not expensive, small herds 2-5, well fenced and maintained good grazing, good stabling and excellent care, horse is the happiest, most relaxed and best condition so we won't be moving!

I think livery yards have changed possibly because there are more of them? Some have a casual attitude about horse management at best and those that don't tend to be run by proffessionals or semi pro from experience

 

[AAR]

We don't have acres of grassy fields as our paddocks are in woodland so have a peat base and grass is sparse. Each pair of horse has a woodland field and a grassy field which are rotated. In the woodland paddocks they are given hay/haylege and have enough room for a canter about but they aren't big.

Every horse is exercised regularly and never really gallop about as field time is rest and relax time. The only problem we have is my Connemara climbing through the fence to get to the apple orchard!

I would be insulted if someone said that because we don't have acres of grassy fields I shouldn't have horses. My horses have everything they need and I'm constantly thinking of what I can do to make their lives happier and healthier.

The hunters go off to a 10 acre field down the road when hunting has finished so winter fields are rested for a long time over summer.

 

[_GG_]

The main things that put me off are bad fencing, as leflynn mentioned and I have a weekend ahead of me of ripping out the barbed wire that is on this land, No ability for horses to be social and over grazing.

It has genuinely shocked me how happy people are to hear that I am not dividing lovely big fields up into smaller paddocks and that I am not putting huge herds together. I am thrilled and feel very lucky to have what we have here, I could never afford to buy this, so have really landed on my feet in that regard, but I can easily see how someone else could turn it into a big, commercial yard and ruin it.

 

[noodle_]

A lot of people around us demand single turnout...others are happy to drive 30mins plus to the yard

I think the word is compromise for us..... My horse has turnout all day, good sized stable, good fields [in a herd of 15],

however, Im not willing to ever compromise on turnout, i did last year to a horrible 1 hour a day turnout every other day, yard - i was mortified when i realised how selfish I was - was on a riding school, fab facilities but whats the point when the horse is miserable??

if the yard im on now ever closed, id be finding a yard [or field] that suits the horse - not me - for turnout - as they dont care about facilies??

Modern livery yards [we are on a farm set up]..is better suited in regards to land....proper livery yards seem to be very precious about their fields...

 

[Theocat]

People aren't prepared to pay what it costs to provide decent livery, so i'm not convinced all the blame lies with yard owners. If you aren't happy with postage stamp fields, either pay for something better or don't have a horse... The owners are the ones making these choices and creating a market.

 

[L&M]

Totally agree Theocat - I stopped doing livery as the price clients were prepared to pay, for what they got in return, left me out of pocket.

With the population levels increasing as they are, there is less and less land available for farming, let alone horse ownership which is fundamentally just a hobby. Land is at a premium, and will only be getting more so, so there will be less and less available as the countryside is being swallowed up by urbanisation.

At the risk of sounding controversial, in 'ye olden days' horse ownership was for the privileged - therefore they tended to be owned by the wealthy who had the time and land required, or were working animals and kept on farms. Now it seems people see it as their 'right' to have a horse, regardless of knowledge, experience or finances, which in turn has led to over breeding and the rise of unsuitable yards to keep them on.

 

[pennyturner]

In times past, many horses never saw a paddock. They spent their working lives, well...working. In between work, they stood in a stall, or if they were very lucky, a loose box.

You can keep a horse happily in your back bedroom if it is working hard every day. The problem comes when it is stood, bored half to death in a half acre paddock for 99% of the time. Worse if also fed far too much grain or mix instead of forage, as is usually the case.

People who meet my ponies think I must be doing something amazing to train them to be so well-behaved. The reality is that they are chilled out in a huge, rough meadow with their friends, and therefore reasonably fit, very relaxed, and happy, and they never see a bucket, so they're not whizzed up on pony nuts.

The irony is that I have had all manner of comments from people who think I'm a bad owner because I don't stable them! Unfortunately this ignorance is what leads people to demand stables and individual turnout.

 

[tabithakat64]

"What do horses want"

1) A safe place to graze and wonder around. Large enough for them to have a good canter/gallop around.
2) Somewhere safe to shelter from any weather.
3) Somewhere to come into if they are ill or injured. For the farrier / Vet to come and be dry. To be separated at feed time. To go to be clipped if need be.
4) Company.


This.
If there is one thing I wont compromise on it is turnout.
If I had to keep my to stabled the majority of the time or out in small paddocks on their own I would not have them.
This is why when I was looking to move my two closer to home it took me several months to find somewhere that I was happy with.

 

[Polar Bear9]

What surprises me is how many people want single turnout and think it's for the best, at least round here. If the demand is for single turnout and a yard decides to meet that demand, then you will end up with postage stamp size plots.

In some cases these are the most expensive yards with the 'best' facilities.

Agreed. I've looked around a lot of yards where they boast of having 'single turnout'. People seem to pay so much more for this. Personally I like mine to be part of a herd, it's the natural state for a horse.

 

[Kittykins]

To buy a couple of acres, put on a stable, hard standing, arena, stores etc would cost thousands, at £30 per week it would take years to pay for that investment but that is the reality for most yards they run at a break even if they are lucky.

That's the real problem, isn't it. My best friend at school paid £25 a week for DIY livery. That was nearly 20 years ago. If prices had kept up with inflation it would be closer to £45 a week now. And back then people were happy with herd turnout and no extras (other than a school, perhaps), nowadays everyone seems to want wash boxes, indoor schools and a cross country course.

I think this got touched on in another thread a while back, but it is odd how horse ownership has become much cheaper over the years - the price of a horse hasn't kept up with inflation either. A horse that cost £3k back then might cost £4k now, but should be closer to £5.3k.

 

[NinjaPony]

Cost has a lot to do with it. I used to keep my ponies on livery in Surrey and every yard we went to suffered from poor turnout- land is so expensive that most places only have a small amount, then try to stuff too many in. It's a huge problem around there. The only place that had really good turnout was so expensive that I couldn't afford it...
I've moved to kent now and my yard has over 60 acres of land for less than 25 horses which is ideal. Previously my ponies went out with each other in pairs or individual but now they are in a 15 acre field with 6/7 others and I have to say, they are so happy and chilled. There is enough land to have a few "sick" paddocks for injured horses out of the herd, like when my pony was lame for several weeks, which is really good, but they both love being in a herd and having lots of room to gallop around, plus it doesn't turn into a total swamp. However, my yard is fairly pricey and is only full/part livery... its a really tricky one.

 

[Theocat]

my yard is fairly pricey.

But that's in comparison to other yards, most of which won't be profitable in any meaningful sense. It probably isn't pricey in terms of actual cost/value.

 

[cptrayes]

I am ashamed when I look back to the eighties now at the way I compromised my horses needs to fit in with my own. In my defence, I was working very hard and my horse kept me sane, but only if I could get out for a proper hack at weekends. I ended up keeping him/her in places with great hacking and no turnout. In one the stables were also well less than 12x12. I knew it wasn't good enough, and I tried to find alternatives, but around the north Bristol area at that time there was nowhere I could find except Dyrham stables and Elm Leaze stud which fitted with where I worked and lived and had any off road hacking.

I'm so lucky with the set up I have at home now.

I'm sort of in the 'you shouldn't keep them if you can't keep them properly' camp but I can completely understand people who do, and I'm in no position to criticize them as long as their horses appear happy and healthy.