Money grabbing vets!

galaxy

galaxy

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A vet who I actually respected was out at my yard the other day doing x-rays on a horses feet.

We were just chatting as he was packing away and he said that he was glad he worked for a practise where they didn't just do flu vaccinations. I asked him what he meant and he said, oh we have all the up to date technology, and most people have their horses insured nowadays, so if we're ever in a slightest bit of doubt, we x-ray and scan, it makes our jobs more interesting!!!! He then went on to say practices don't make money out of jabs, it's the scans they make the money on!!!!
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Note to self to never have that practise as my vet!
 
The thing is I don't overly see the problem with erring on the side of caution. The words
"if we're ever in a slightest bit of doubt"
Indicates that further investigations might prove more fruitful. How many people here have had scans done, nerve blocks, x rays, MRI's, scintigraphy etc. and the vets can eventually pin point a problem? Our own vet was convinced our dog has neuralogical damage and referred him to a neurologist/orthopedic specialist. 2 MRI scans and the dog was deemed neurologically sound. The cause of his problems? Spondylitis of the spine. We could not have isolated that without further exploration....all that because our own vet was " in doubt"
We were insured up to the eyeballs so that if there was any doubt we would chuck money at the problem. In all the cases it proved valuable. I would rather a vet erred on the side of caution than left something that could be treated. I am not advocating that you go into it eyes shut. Experience and your own research can weed out any 'rogue' elements out for a quick bob. All the vets we have ever had have been superb and ethically good.
 
That's not exactly how he worded it and to be honest it didn't come across well. My YM over heard it too and came to exactly the same conclusion.

I'm all for erring on the side of caution, but it came across as "we're bored doing jabs and scan to make life interesting". He's a well spoken guy, he didn't get his words mixed up. I questioned him, he knew exactly what he said.

For example, I'm not convinced about the x rays he's doing now. Not my horse, so don't want to say too much, but basically when he first came out and said what he thought it could be we were like "heck, that's serious!" Box rest, possible bullet outcome. The horse was put on box rest for a week. He then came back a week later to do x rays. The machine then broke and he said he'd come back in a couple of days and to turn the horse out! Now the condition he said he was researching is fatal if oges to far, and is made worse by grass and movement, and should defo not be turned out. I've researched and all advise is box rest. He was meant to be out Thursday, cancelled and is now out next Wednesday. Now for what he says he's looking for it should be urgent!! If it was my horse I'd be taking it somewhere else, I couldn't wait. So I'm not convinced it is what he says he's x raying for, which makes me more suspicious that he's doing it for the sake of it.

As for insurance. I personally wouldn't want scans if they were not needed. Insurance company far more likely to exclude and then when you really need the insurance you are really up the creek without a paddle!
 
Forgot to say...you are absolutely right....He could have voiced it a hell of a lot better.
The thing is this vet from your example sounds poor and I would have binned him just on the way he presented himself thus saving the need for costly scans. I would hope to be able to sufficiently question the vet to ascertain why he deemed it necessary if you get my meaning! I do agree with you about the poor wording though.
 
I agree with you Galaxy, the first vets i used when my horse went lame recently asked if he was insured and then wanted to take him straight away and MRI him (the whole hog), we said stuff that and went for a second opinion with another vet. Second vet was fantastic (hes a one man band sort of thing) came out and x-rayed him at our yard and found out what was wrong straight away and treated him for it, hes now *touch wood* a sound happy chappy.

I know its not about the cost, but in this case his experience and knowledge allowed him to do what he saw fit (i.e. x ray first and then investigate further if needed). In doing so our bill is almost half of what it would have been if the initial vets had their way. Which unfortunately is lucky for me as insurance company are being funny, so i'm currently paying of a vets bill of £1800.
 
*whispers* he actually has an incredibly good reputation which is why I was even more shocked! Have to say I'm not yet righting off his diagnosis of this case yet as I haven't heard of him to be wrong, and I've seen him be VERY good. I just think it has been a combination of things in this instance that has just made my jaw drop!

When he first came out and suggested x rays it did make sense and I was there. However after our conversation I left and then found out about the turn out and the subsequent cancellations I have had no dealings with. The horses owner hasn't been horses long enough to understand the concequenses. I know if it was my horse I'd be kicking off, although I realise the x ray machine problems aren't his fault, I would be taking my horse elsewhere.
 
I agree. A few years ago my horse had a bad back. My vet (different one) came out and said I could send him for MRI scans or see if he responds to physio first. I asked what her opinion was, and she said try physio and see if it makes any improvement. I value that. It did work and no scans were necessary. I did claim on my insurance, but because it was only a few hundred pounds they didn't exclude. They defo would have if he'd been scanned.
 
There are few issues here as far as I can see. Firstly, horse owners would be the first to get upset if they felt that the vet had not done absolutely everything to ensure the health of their horse. In this blame-culture society where vets are at the risk of being sued, many would rather err on the side of caution and do every available check, scan, test etc to ensure they have a correct diagnosis. We do have insurance for a reason, however, at the end of the day it is down to the horse owner when to call it a day. It is our responsibility to question the vet, if you feel you have enough knowledge to decide that a scan is not necessary then it is up to you to make that known. If, however, you say 'please do everything you can to save Dobbin' then you then can't moan when they do everything they can and it sets you back lots of money!
Too many people rant about vets, but at the end of the day (as with any professional) you pay for their advice and experience - if you don't trust it then find another vet.

By the way, none of this is aimed at you (galasxy23), just my general feelings about vets and horse owners
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I do agree to a point.....

But the scenario I was really questioning here was when vets scan etc as a first point of call, assuming it's something REALLY sinister rather than just a kick/abcess/thrush. You know, treat the obvious first. I'm not saying that scans aren't necessary.

I feel sorry for vets who feel in this blame culture they have to do a full work up for a slightly swollen fetlock on the first visit!

ETS the vet also SAID that he likes doing scans to make life more interesting and that's where the money is! That is where my problem lies. Not with the fact vets may feel under pressure to do these scans.
 
wow... I love my vets at the moment... there great... so many times they could have cost me money and instead theyve turned around and said, 'call back tomorrow if its worse', or 'give it a few days box rest if there still lame and your still worried call back' etc... there anything but money grabbing, and so wonderfull
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Ill never forget the day the vet found the ridect that the recpetionist said 'they didnt have', she wasnt very happy for some reason!
 
Dr. Spring...the exact point I was making! again not aimed at anybody. You have put it very clearly!
Galaxy...either way I hope your friend's horse is ok!
 
I am sorry, but I have to disagree
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I took my mare to my own vet initially when she was not quite right, and he sent me home with a handful of bute and told me to work her over the weekend quite hard and see how she was on the Monday. He also said that this could just be her way of going
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I was not happy with that diagnosis, so the bute was never used and she was rested as much as possible... I then took her to a specialist and she was xrayed, nerve blocked etc etc. and a diagnosis made that she had an injury to the proximal part of the left hind suspensory
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This had perviously been missed just days before, and I would much rather my own vet have erred on the side of caution and scanned her leg than just left it.
 
I have to agree with Becky.
My horse wasn't right last year and in the end I had to insist on a referral to stop my vet just faffing around with time off and bute. He kept referring to the cost of treatment and I had trouble getting through to him that it was irrelevant because a) I was insured and b) my horse was still costing me money to keep when I couldn't ride him.

I would prefer a vet to give me all the options so that I could decide what investigations I wanted done.
 
If I hadn't insisted on having my gelding's hock x-rayed we would never have known that he had a bone chip and he probably would have eventually broken down badly. He wasn't lame, and there was only a bit of swelling - the vet was tempted to say that it was nothing. I wanted it looked at, and thank god I did. We caught it in time and he was able to be operated and the joint saved.

I really don't like these vet bashing posts that appear here periodically. Vets are highly qualified professionals who work very hard and we are lucky to be able to call upon them in emergencies. My vets are worth their weight in gold imho. My friend's horse had mild colic last night and she was on the phone to the senior partner at home at 11pm......
 
It is not a vet bashing post. If you read I'm very happy with my vet. I was just talking about this particular vet and how surprised I was at what he said about it was a way to make life interesting and to make more money, because they might as well as people are insured. I really don't think that is a good attitude. I don't think anyone has said they were unhappy with what their vet has done. And I certainly don't think that all vets are like this.
 
If he has that good a reputation maybe he was saying it in jest. It is now always possible to tell when many people are being tongue-in-cheek.
 
can i just say that i think that in an emergency, i could get my horse operated on more quickly than i could myself... that's priceless. it is up to the owner (and the insurer) whether they decide to go for the more expensive diagnostic equipment etc, or just rest the horse/chuck it out in the field or whatever. i might blink at the size of the bills sometimes (and even get a bit knocked off if i think it's unreasonably/unexpectedly steep), but i don't begrudge my vets a penny.
 
Well said Kerilli.
Iv been spending the last few wks seeing practice in lage animal and pure equine practices. The equine practice deals almost exclusively with Thoroughbreds as sporthorses just dont pay. Does it make them rubbish vets just because they dont spend their day vaccinating donkeys? Hardly. They have recently built a new hospital and the costs involved in running such a place are astronomical. Trainers (and racehorse owners!) are more than happy to get full lameness work ups done on their horses and it saves a lot of time if a full clinical work-up is carried out, rather than just sitting and waiting if the horse is fracture lame.

A good horse-person will only call their vetif they are convinced the horse is seriously lame and not just bruised or grazed itself, has loss of performance or if they feel a horse is not himself. In these cases, a full work-up is vital. Without a block, scan or an xray - how do you think a definitive diagnosis can be made?
 
I think certain problems are treated way to seriously, especially when just a bit of time and rest will sort it out... If you injure yourself and go to the doctor, you are usually given a few pain killers and told to rest it! No expensive treatment.
 
yes, daisychain, but the majority of horse owners don't seem to want to be told to rest the horse for 6 months or a year... they don't want to be without something to ride/compete etc. they want answers, and solutions.
i had to rest my top mare for over a year once, it felt like forever even though now it seems like nothing...
 
Yes know what you mean, personally if something happens i dont worry about it, because i often think if you speed things up then you never get proper long term results!
 
Thats exactly it Kerilli, meant to say that. Its all very well telling an onwer to rest for a week, bute etc. But so so many find their horse sound on day 2 (after a few bute) and think great, shes healed Il give her a spin - forgetting tht shes on pain killers and aggravating the injury.
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A full work-up should shorten the time from initial visit to recovery. A compliant owner would be helpful too...:p
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I think he put it all wrong myself but was telling the truth and would not say our own vets were money grabbing ever.
They discuss possibilities with us and really we decide whether an X ray is necessary not the vet.
Our vet even advised a specialist X ray for a livery's horse as he said their machine couldn't give as much info, so if he was money grabbing he would have just offered it himself wouldn't he?
Where the vet near you falls down is not when working for the client, but the insurance companies. If vets keep advising expensive practices then it's no wonder the insurance companies' get shirty and refuse to cover things.
I bet they do make more on a scan than an injection, and I wouldn't use them again either!
We were told by the YO where one of our horses went for hydrotherapy that the vet based on site charged her £100 for a tendon scan (he had to walk approx 50 yards to do it from his office)
I was livid when the bill came to almost £200 and queried it. Oh he lowered his bill, but gave me a £40 credit note, which of course was useless.
It would have been cheaper to pay my own vet to drive 10 miles and do the same scan!
As I don't have any of our horses insured for vet's fees just PL I tend to be cautious in calling out the vet..William for instance cost £3000 last year to save..
 
Galaxy why are you suprised at this??

It's common sense.

Thank god for insurance - if it means my horse gets the best medical treatment from a practice that has all the latest technology - funded by me - then I am one very happy bunny.

How do you think they make their money???
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Also a note, if horses are insured vets often jump to the more expensive workups first to make sure there covered by the insurace. You can rattle through 1800 on diagnostic work quite easily and then there's not enough left for the MRI that you now know you need. If you plump for the MRI first it gets paid for and you get your answer.
As the saying goes many roads lead to Rome.
 
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