Monty Roberts:Horse Whisperer or not?

wetzpretz said:
Has anyone read this article by William Micklem about Monty Roberts? http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/william-micklem-asks-is-this-a
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Micklem hits the proverbial nail on its proverbial head! MR was NOT the inspiration for 'The Horse Whisperer' - Buck B. was - and I got that straight from Nick Evans when we were killing time at the BBC before a Nosenight slot (how's that for name-dropping!:D) He told me a few other things about a certain person too which I won't repeat because a certain person loves threatening libel actions if anyone says anything about him that he doesn't like!!

But Micklem got it right in more ways than that:

There is little need to get on a horse’s back in record time….and there is little need for Monty Robert’s quick mount trick. There is however a great need to prepare a horses for being ridden so that they can cope with the weight of the rider without dropping and locking their back and becoming an inefficient athlete.
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SO true! It takes a MINIMUM of 1-2 weeks of groundwork to teach a horse to go forward to voice aids before you should consider getting on!! This also helps strengthen the back little in preparation for the weight of the rider. AND it ensures you don't have to resort to 'kick and pull' if a horse can be asked to walk, trot and most importantly, whoa!!- just by the voice.

Too many horses are backed FAST - often when they're rather light in condition - or too young - or both! They don't have the strength to fight back! Sooner - or later - they do!
 
Just got back from Dublin where Monty's demonstrations were so popular he had to be moved to a bigger ring to accommodate the spectators.

I can see William Micklem's point, but I don't think Monty Roberts is suggesting you back your horse in half an hour and ride off into the sunset. He makes it clear that what he is demonstrating is a very speeded up version of events, just so that people can see what is possible and get the idea of the join-up.

I think most people there were more interested in behavioural problems in older horses, horses that won't load etc. The demonstration I saw was with a very spooky 12-year-old mare and he had her walking over scary plastic sheets in no time - first in hand, then with a rider.

I think it's a bit of a shame that somebody like William Micklem should be resorting to those sorts of catty remarks. There's room for everybody, surely.
 
Oh now, people dismiss all that as the result of jealousy. Or his family being deluded. http://www.horsewhispersandlies.com/
However, it is well known that Monty Roberts claimed involvement in the Horse Whisperer that he never had.
I agree with William Micklem, actually getting on a young horse isn't that difficult. I don't have a problem with anyone doing that quickly, if the horse is ready for it to happen quickly. It's not magic. I think a lot of horses at the Monty Roberts demos are pushed too far too fast, but I am aware that is normally a minority opinion. I don't think it is fair on the horse to show a speeded up version of anything.
 
p.s. I do credit Monty Roberts with bringing some different ideas to the attention of the wider horse-owning public. I'm not naive enough to think that if he hadn't done it nobody else would have done though. I think he was the first to open a certain door. (Pat Parelli has also been to see the Queen LOL).
 
If anyone understands the concept of training a horse well it is Monty. If anyone has read his books they will understands this. He was a great rider winning many many championships and has trained probably hundreds of horses in all disiplines.
His methods in demonstrations show how join up can be used when first showing a horse a saddle and bridle and first ridding it, and as he has said himself it is a very shortened version of how you should start a horse in training.
Its sounds to me as if Micklem is jealous, which is pointless as he is obviosly a good trainer (i have a book by him which is very good), surely he should be supporting the use of non-violent training and understand that different trainers have different methods of starting horses, one exact method doesn't have to be employed by all. The goals of both are obviously to have a happy and well trained healthy horse.
Also, remeber that monty grew up with a violent background with his father; who not only beat him but who beat the horses he trained also. He lived in a time where the method of training a horse first started with breaking his will to fight, and therfore torturing him. Nowadays i doubt this method is rarely used, however people will still saw at a horses mouth, overuse the whip and spurs etc which monty is aiming to stop.

A quote from Monty Roberts autobiography; ''i do demonstrations where i take a young horse that has not be saddled, bridled or ridden, and attempt to have him accept all this in approximately thirty minutes......demonstration aside it is best to take a few days to accustom the baby to the bit and to a small measure of communication through long lines''
and ''remember that when i do my demonstrations they must be done in one session or the viewers cannot see the entire procedure. this does not mean that you have to do the same....it is the quality of your work that is important not how fast you accomplish it''

As you can tell i am a bit of a fan of Monty's :)
 
You know, all that stuff about beating of Monty and the horses is hotly disputed by people who were there. Including his brother, who would have seen the evidence. The famous photo of the horse laid down with it's legs tied together is not a demonstration of horse-breaking, it's a photo to accompany a careful explanation of how to immobilise a horse for a medical procedure. (Remembering vets and sedation could have been very far away in an emergency). There are modern photos that look remarkably similar, on websites for equine rescue organisations.
It's even been said that there was no round pen, of the type described in Monty's book, at the riding school run by Monty's mum and dad.
Interestingly, if you read Buck Brannaman's book, he did have an abusive childhood. He and his brother were beaten regularly by their father. They were taken into care in the end.
Round pen work, remarkably like what Monty Roberts claims to have invented and that he has marketed as Join Up, has been around for a very, very long time. Indeed, it is described in Monty's dad's horse training book. So did Monty really devise his approach by studying wild horses, or did he use something he was familiar with from the work of his dad and other trainers? In a way it doesn't matter, but in a way it does. None of the people that were supposed to have gone to catch the wild horses with Monty have any recollection of the event, and in one version (the names have been changed a couple of times) none of the lads would have been old enough to drive them to the desert.
So I personally have mixed feelings about Monty, as I said, he publicised some interesting ways of doing things. (Interesting, maybe not the best, better than some). I think he's told some tall tales though.
 
Cowboys in the era he grew up in were absolutely brutal with their horses and this continued until relatively recently. I remember watching a programme with Lucy Rees a few years ago (remember her?) and she was following some cowboys who were breaking their horses. It was just awful to watch and I don't doubt his father employed similar methods.

I think we are all entitled to a bit of artistic licence (he is from Hollywood, after all) and the spirit of his work should be applauded.
 
I wouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. Have his family acctually come out in public on tv and said he is a liar? If you read monty's website it says that the creater of that website openly said he was trying to extort money from him.
His method obviously work as he has helped and trained probably hundreds of peoples horses.

And the horses don't lie.
 
Because he is using them as a demo to a fee paying audience he has to choose the most suitable horses for his backing, ones which he can do in the alloted time frame. They are obviously not sent home as fully trained riding horses, their owners will be sent home with guidelines to continue thier education.

My horse is currently at with a Kelly Marks RA to be backed. He is not the easiest of horses so they are progressing slowly with him, he is now happily wearing a saddle, works well on the long lines and is daily getting more and more used to weight in the saddle. He would not have been chosen to be used in a demo!
 
Seems like Mr Micklem is having a bit of a bitch rant, regardless of what MT claims or does not claim he approaches animals with respect, he sets them, or gets them back on, the right path to having a life not full of fear and mistrust. It is widely known horses take time to develop and mature mentally and physically but more often than not horses are pushed well beyond their abilities by ignorant riders and owners. This is prolific in the competition world where young horses are put under incredible pressure and asked to perform way beyond their years, maybe if this set of people swung their mindsets a bit more towards "classical" or "natural" we would not have such a huge amount of horses in this world abused and ruined in the name of sportsmanship!
 
I believe that Monty's family have been interviewed, I don't know if on TV. They have written and published a book though. Does that count as attempting to extort money? I would have thought that if someone published a book full of lies about you, the only person who could gain from that would be you. And Monty Roberts isn't averse to lawsuits.
Seafarer said:
Cowboys in the era he grew up in were absolutely brutal with their horses and this continued until relatively recently. I remember watching a programme with Lucy Rees a few years ago (remember her?) and she was following some cowboys who were breaking their horses. It was just awful to watch and I don't doubt his father employed similar methods.
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Talk about massive generalisation. Blimey.

I think we are all entitled to a bit of artistic licence (he is from Hollywood, after all) and the spirit of his work should be applauded.
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Matter of opinion. Artistic licence is one thing. That little book his family produced, it makes compelling reading to me. Not just the stuff disputing his father's abuse, or even the stuff about how nasty a horse trainer his dad was. It's the mass of evidence that said something to me. For example, respected horse trainers that he said he trained with, who say he didn't. The fictions about his relationship with James Dean. The fact he obviously didn't go on tour winning everything in a railway carriage. Ripping good read though.
(Oh heck, got dragged into the Monty Roberts Horse Whispers and Lies thing again, I'm going to drag myself out again ROFLMAO!).
 
Whatever is said about Monty in the press or books no-one can dispute that is methods do work. It has been tried and tested time and again. In demonstrations, as has already been said, Monty chooses the horses that are going to show his methods can work and in a short period of time. He does however state that this is just the beginning of solving the problem/starting the horse or whatever and that the owners have to carry on with the training process after the demonstration. He does not wave a majic wand and have a horse ready to be hacked out for hours safely in half an hour!!
 
Seafarer said:
Cowboys in the era he grew up in were absolutely brutal with their horses and this continued until relatively recently. I remember watching a programme with Lucy Rees a few years ago (remember her?) and she was following some cowboys who were breaking their horses. It was just awful to watch and I don't doubt his father employed similar methods.

I think we are all entitled to a bit of artistic licence (he is from Hollywood, after all) and the spirit of his work should be applauded.
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i think you will find there is a small minority of cowboys who were rough and used harsh methods but there is a history of fantastic horsemenship on the big ranches going back hundeds of years to the spanish conquistdors.. Monty grew up in a loving family surounded by great horsemen including his father who was aparenty very highly thought of in the local area.. Monty is good and helping people to understand horses is a great thing.. whatever he has done to invent his past who cares its just a bit sad and amusing at the same time...
 
Tinypony said:
I believe that Monty's family have been interviewed, I don't know if on TV. They have written and published a book though. Does that count as attempting to extort money? I would have thought that if someone published a book full of lies about you, the only person who could gain from that would be you. And Monty Roberts isn't averse to lawsuits.!).
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I have no idea what is true or not but its fairly typical of people to deny violence in their families and often only one child may suffer abuse whilst others in the family are enablers or at least do nothing to stop it - so I wouldn't necessarily take what the rest of the family says as gospel.
Don't forget they also have lots to gain by causing controversy and probably getting well paid for it.

Anyway - I much prefer traditional methods of breaking a young under-developed horse and training it to advanced level by the time it is 5 and keeping it in a stable 23 out of every 24hrs wrapped from head to toe in bandages. Then shooting it at 9 because it has hock problems and won't stay sound and is too insane to rehome as a hack.
 
I don't see that Monty's childhood is pertinent to the discussion about his methods. But on the subject of the "cowboy way" being brutal and Monty being a pioneer, it's simply not true. There is a long tradition of people like Tom Dorrance, or, further afield, Tom Roberts in Australia, promoting systems involving a high standard of horsemanship and understanding. Nothing of Monty's is strictly "new". Which isn't to say it doesn't work, quite the opposite - it's a time honoured tradition and a time proven approach.

I do agree very much on the "ride too soon" thing. Getting on a horse's back is a relatively minor part of the process and it just makes sense to have the horse properly prepared physically as well as mentally. To do otherwise, obviously, is to invite injury and long term problems. Alas, preparing horses on the ground and riding sympathetically those first few weeks seems to be the part that often gets missed. To be fair, Monty says very clearly in his book that he recommends people DO take this time but obviously the "circus" aspect of the one session breaking negates that advice completely in the minds of many observers. :( I also think his "target market" is often HUGELY different from the people he has riding for him, and I think this is sometimes swept aside to an alarming level. It's one thing for a 20 year old farm hand who has been riding all his life to vault on a horse chosen for the "performance" and prepared by a skilled ground person and ride off, it's quite another to even IMPLY the same approach will work for the average owner with a tricky horse. I know Monty doesn't TELL people to go out and do this but you have to admit, by selling the speed of the approach, he's at least implying it's a viable option. Which it is not.

On the movie subject, it's been pretty clear public knowledge from the beginning that Buck B was the inspiration for the character and he was the wrangler/advisor on the actual movie. The book title confusion was behind a lot of the misunderstanding, I'd suspect, although, admittedly, Monty did little to clear things up. ;) Quite frankly, I'm surprised any horseman wants to be associated with it, but to each their own. :)

The thing about all these guys is, they're simply not saying anything new/special/revolutionary. It may be new to some people listening but they're part of a long tradition and all the information has been available to anyone interested in seeking it, from books, from good horsemen, and from horses themselves. It's great if it helps people see horses and horsemanship in new ways and gives them new skills, but I really think it's a problem when it starts to become a cult of personality, or all about seeing things in a very rigid way. The great horsemen have their systems, absolutely (and they certainly aren't all the same) but they also have empathy, understanding, experience, and education. They see the individual horse and read the individual moment. I think it's very easy to get away from that clarity of vision, that "living in the now", when it all becomes about the road show and the book signings. Which is not to say all these guys don't have a great deal to offer, but they aren't idols to be worshipped, they're [hopefully] just people doing a good job.
 
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sussexbythesea said:
I have no idea what is true or not but its fairly typical of people to deny violence in their families and often only one child may suffer abuse whilst others in the family are enablers or at least do nothing to stop it - so I wouldn't necessarily take what the rest of the family says as gospel.
Don't forget they also have lots to gain by causing controversy and probably getting well paid for it.

Anyway - I much prefer traditional methods of breaking a young under-developed horse and training it to advanced level by the time it is 5 and keeping it in a stable 23 out of every 24hrs wrapped from head to toe in bandages. Then shooting it at 9 because it has hock problems and won't stay sound and is too insane to rehome as a hack.
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Or having it jumping 1.60 tracks at 8!

Anyway they have to stay in the stable and not go in the field as they are worth soooooo much money!!!

He he he:D
 
He lost any respect I may have had for him when he chased that young feral stallion into a state of shutdown and exhaustion over three days. It was totally unneccessary and cruel.
 
Does he claim to use Native American methods?

Just asked as yesterday I was reading a nineteenth century eye-witness account of Commanche horsebreaking, and it was pretty darn brutal.

Roberts over Parelli any day though, however he dresses up his methods and history.
 
I never used to agree with horse whispering and parelli I just thought it was a load of rubbish, tbh parelli I still do :p

But last year I wrote to Monty explaining the problem I have loading my old horse it used to take hours! We could get stuck at a show for bliming ages and all the people would already be gone.

Monty worte back saying he was doing a display at Hartbury and asked if I could bring Taz along so he could do the demo on him! I was hugely excited and actually could not wait.

So we get to the yard on the day of the demo 6 hourse before we leave so if he's being a pain we get there on time. We couldn't load him to actually get there. We gave the organisers a ring and told them what happened.

Monty sent one of his people out to sort out Taz, she had him going in the trailer within 20mins by himself, he would walk himself in! I think this is amazing, and is natural horsemanship no pressure was put on Taz to go in the trailer he wanted to go in.

I might be taking my new horse to one of his demos as he is so scared of the vet he tries to kill him, I'm in process of writing to Monty now about our problem.

I don't agree with all the methods such as backing a youngster within 30 mins but I do think when the methods are done over a period of time they are brilliant and just make the horses life better.
 
perfect11s said:
i think you will find there is a small minority of cowboys who were rough and used harsh methods but there is a history of fantastic horsemenship on the big ranches going back hundeds of years to the spanish conquistdors..
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That's very interesting. Were the Vaqueros in the majority and the cowboys in the minority? I really don't know. I have, perhaps naively, always assumed that the "standard" cowboy method of breaking involved tying the horse to a snubbing post and sacking out (flooding) until the horse submitted and was "broken" - which to my eyes is pretty rough and brutal. So it comes as a bit of a surprise to me to hear that use of that method was relatively rare.

I know the Lucy Rees documentary well - To Ride a Wild Horse (HTV, 1983) - I have it on VHS. Most of it was showing the challenge between Lucy and a "cowboy" she met in her travels in (I think) Arizona - who could break and ride a mustang first, chosen from a herd that had been rounded up and corralled. He used ropes and sacking out on his chosen horse, a gelding (we saw a castration done without anaesthetic in the middle of the corral); she sat at the side of her round pen, read a book and waited for her young stallion (she didn't want to put him through the op) to come and investigate her. After a lot of fighting by the cowboy and gentle desensitization by Lucy, it ended up with her exploring the local countryside - walking through streams and into a cave at one point - bareback on her horse, having clearly won the challenge.
 
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