magpiesyard
Well-Known Member
anyone else lucky enough to have tickets for monty roberts tour? anyone been before? what to expect?!
monty roberts
- Thread starter magpiesyard
- Start date
JessPickle
Well-Known Member
I am going tommorow night
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i've been a couple of times. the guy's a master horse reader and a great showman.
however, if his regular cowboy(s) have been injured getting bucked off, do not stick your hand up when he asks for volunteers from the audience...
i just managed to restrain myself. a guy volunteered, and ended up getting dumped for his bravery...
i'm not kidding btw, this really happened. he's brilliant, but he's also brave with other people's necks...
however, if his regular cowboy(s) have been injured getting bucked off, do not stick your hand up when he asks for volunteers from the audience...
i just managed to restrain myself. a guy volunteered, and ended up getting dumped for his bravery...
i'm not kidding btw, this really happened. he's brilliant, but he's also brave with other people's necks...
magpiesyard
Well-Known Member
crikey! will watch out for that then!
duckling
Well-Known Member
I went before Xmas to his monty rides again tour and it was amazing - he is a showman, and a good one at that, although he didn't have any volunteers from the audience at our demo, but he did some Western riding himself which was pretty cool
flowerlady
Well-Known Member
I went about 7 - 8 years ago after seeing him on the telly. NOT impressed. Getting a horse to load which owner took about 2 hrs before and after a ride or show. Horse was 16.2 chestnut. He said he would load it within five minutes from its front hoofs touching the ramp. Mean while one of his students would work with it for half an hour at the side. This entailed a teenager who looked very much like a pikey, with a control headcollar making the horse back up about 4 paces then walking forward about 4 paces this went on for about half an hour. The horse didn't know where he was. Then Monty took hold. Large drive box, surrounded by the large metal fencings that you see around building sites all down the sides. As he approached the box, the staff then closed in around it with the metal sides. Horse had no choice? YES he reared up and fell flat on his back, the owner face I could have wept for her. He continued and YES the horse did load on the third attempt. He said as the front hoofs were on the ramp now start timing???. POOR HORSE. I don't know if the owner would have been able to load the horse again especially seeing as she loaded it to go there. Then a 2 year old bred for Polo. Head collor on and did some join up work (loose to run round lunge line used same as Richard Maxwell) then he put 2 long reins on and had the nerve to say don't do this unless you are experienced as the pony moved off it got its legs caught up in the long lines reared and guess what fell over on its back. This owner was almost in tears. He sat with his head in his hands not knowing what to do. They have never met Monty before his shows. The pony was alright but I would not let him touch one of mine. Then we watched him on telly where he ran a wild horse for 3 days chasing it on other horses changing riders until the horse was exhausted. He then proceeded to put a saddle on and get on to show he could break a wild horse quickly? NOT IMPRESSED AT ALL NO ONE FROM OUR YARD WAS. Although I've heard some say they thinks he's wonderful. We must have caught him on a bad day.
Hideaway
Member
I agree with flowerlady, I saw him in Nashville once and wasn't impressed. And then someone posted this on a board I frequent and I must admit I was surprised, it certainly is food for thought. Sorry it's rather long.
Article from Cavallo
December, 2003
((Introduction))
When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips American trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of his work, that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse. Robert's interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of respect and relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of pillars of Roberts' allegedly non-violent Join-up method.
How do equine ethologists and behavioural scientists interpret the chewing and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is Join Up really?
CAVALLO asked leading experts from all over the world. Here are some excerpts of their answers:
Dr. Barbara Schöning, Specialist in Animal Behaviour from Hamburg, Germany
From a very early stage the foal shows chewing and licking, the head can be lowered at the same time and the legs bend - similar to the suckling at the udder. Later this eating behaviour becomes a social behaviour that signals submission and appeasement during conflicts. Behaviourists believe that the empty chewing (bruxism) not only restrains the adversary's aggression but also calms and relaxes the chewing one, in the sense of a so called displacement activity.
If a horse shows this kind of behaviour, there is a reason for it: it feels threatened, which means it is stressed and therefore shows a behaviour that in its opinion is adequate in order to avert the threat. As it is impossible to flee in a round pen it is left with the options to attack, to surrender or to appease.
That is where drama comes into play: situations like those that Monty Roberts creates are for most horses incomprehensible. Why (from the horse's point of view) does an unknown person put on massive pressure in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding of the horse, is at stake?
Generally this means double stress which in my opinion brings it to the limits as regards animal welfare. I don't think humans should only be very gentle. Pressure is necessary every now and then during the training - but it has to be reasonable, graded and above all comprehensible for the horse. Then it won't suffer stress as it learns how it can resolve a certain problem.
Monty Roberts is neither gentle nor non-violent in the round pen unless gentle and non-violent is defined as "the absence of direct corporal punishment/manipulation".
To me psychological violence is also relevant.
Dr. Sue McDonnell holds a PhD in psychology and physiology and is Head of the Equine Behaviour Lab at the University of Pennsylvania.
She is one of the leading experts for Equine Behaviour in the USA.
Most behaviourists have concerns regards the naturalness of these natural horsemanship methods. Many horse owners who have been exposed to these methods contact our Institute subsequently for help. This indicates that they often encounter complications or even failure. Join up is a weird and ever growing changing combination of procedures that has very few if any practical applications beyond the "show".
Same results can be achieved in much simpler ways, though not as entertaining perhaps.
Now in the US it seems that Monty is going out, I haven't heard much lately about Shy Boy or any of his materials. The methods people have learned in join up type clinics can be fairly rough and border on inhumane and can cause psychological wrecks long-term.
Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the Institute of Biomedical & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is "licking and chewing". This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release. The simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee - increase in circulating adrenaline - dry mouth - licking. This means a horse may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it surely cannot mean "I'm a herbivore, and if I'm eating I can't be afraid of you" the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up. I've tried "join up" with three horses with whom I already had a trusting relationship. One joined up "classically" and followed me around meekly.
The other two displayed signs of being irritated by the procedure, one showed increased aggressiveness towards me. I was left wondering frankly what the point of the exercise was and realized that the driving away had a detrimental effect on the trust that I already had built up. > It is not a technique that I would consider using myself, or recommending to other people.
Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the book "Inside your horse's mind - A Study of Equine Intelligence and Human Prejudice".
She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses. I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are anxious about something as evinced by their body language. In some cases it may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates the need for caution when attributing specific meanings to particular gestures or facial expressions as these can vary according to context. To be fair, Monty Robert's pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that licking and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join up is not suitable for every horse.
The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship methods is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations of free-ranging horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than mares. The result is that the training methods adopted are based on very simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.
Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine Behaviourist and Therapist.
In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for Managing Wild Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management (BML) and she is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in Vancouver/Washington.
In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first their lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off their stress, they often will lick and chew - this is however more a sign of relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew, too, when they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back, sweating, pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe, just a way for the horse to release some of the built up stress.
I have known Monty Roberts for almost 30 years. Many of the "join up" techniques are not natural to a horse and in fact cause trauma. The video made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse demonstrated every level of "high stress indicator". Good horse ethologists or trainers take into account the horse's temperament and level of stress and then design the most appropriate method to help the horse learn with the least amount of stress and fear. Patience, kindness and being able to think like a horse, are the best traits a human educator can have to educate a horse. Join up once started out as a better way to "break" horses, and has just turned into just another way to control horses using techniques they do not all understand.
Dr. Dirk Lebelt, Specialist for Animal Behaviour at the Horse Clinic, Havelland in Brielow/Brandenburg, Germany
I have some doubts regards the claimed naturalness of round pen training. Even though the control of the movement of a lower status horse by a high status horse is a characteristic of specific equine behaviour. But while under natural conditions the lower status horse is able to evade the aggressions of the higher status animal and may signal its submissiveness, an evasion is impossible within the round pen. In my opinion this explains partly the quick success that often can be observed during round pen training. The horse feels it is at the mercy of the trainer, which is also called "learned helplessness". This leads to quick submission.
How far such a procedure, which surely doesn't correspond with the specific equine behavioural repertoire, is non-violent or not, depends definitely on the empathy and the experience of the trainer.
Andy Beck from the "White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project" in Northland/New Zealand studies equine behaviour and training methods on Thoroughbreds and Arabs.
The drive away in which the horse is put into 'flight' is potentially very frightening. The use of a mask increases the element of panic and the potential for "learned helplessness". While this may create an appearance of "control" it has also been shown to impede future learning. There is also the risk of producing abreaction in response to repressed emotion (fear, isolation). Horses that have already been well socialised to people become extremely confused by being driven away. The horse has no idea why it is harried and is most likely to experience the method as unpredictable aggression - the last thing a good trainer wants a horse to experience.
One of the most basic tenets of good horse management is that the handler is able to control their behaviour so that they do not trigger the response of blind flight as a predator would do.
Professor Katherine Houpt, Behavioural Psychologist and Physiologist at the College of Veterinary Behaviourists, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA
I have seen Roberts use the Dually as punishment - jerking on the nose rope and forcing the horse to back up. He doesn't call it punishment, but it is. His method is not suitable for every horse.
Very aggressive horses will charge. And it is not suitable for every horse owner, as some simply exhaust the horse. To drive the horse away is just a form of negative reinforcement - doing something unpleasant until the horse does what you want. That is not too different from kicking the horse until he trots. I don't think this method has anything to do with herd behaviour and I don't know how often horses are permanently cured of their problem if Roberts isn't there. Round Pen training is not miraculous.
Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School of Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh
In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method especially as this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round pen) was used for training horses in Roman times. If the horse is placed in isolation and in an unfamiliar environment and powerful psychological techniques such as those in the join up system are applied, you have to question the effect that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable dictator and the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the horse shows licking and chewing - all signs of stress.
Dr. Sharon Cregier, Equine Ethologist, former Lecturer at the Canadian University of Prince Edward Island.
She has published many books and articles on equine behaviour and animal welfare. I have never liked the "predator - prey" application to horse training. The horse is a social animal, seeking security and reassurance with trusted herd mates. An ill horse is driven from the herd and it is forced to try to survive on the edge of the herd where it is prey. Therefore it must be confusing to a horse to be continually driven from its source of security but unable to flee.
The round pen, notes veterinarian Robert Miller of Thousand Oaks, California, inhibits the horse's natural flight response. The free horse flees a predator in a straight line.
Regards the "chewing and licking" it has not been clear to me whether Monty Roberts is referring to the grooved "suckling" tongue or the nervous attack on, for example, hay in a trailer when a horse is under stress.
Dr. Willa Bohnet, Biologist and Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Center for Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Germany
To do a join up with an aggressive horse in a closed round pen is highly dangerous. The method on its own is not suitable for the behavioural therapy of a problem horse. For such a therapy it is necessary to combine, depending on the diagnosis, various methods (for example conditioning, systematic desensitization and anticonditioning in cases of fear and phobias). Under certain circumstances Join up may be suitable to establish the relationship as regards dominance between the trainer and the horse as a basis for further training.
Horses that are generally ready to accept the human being of higher status and to work with him, would be completely confused if they were chased away by the trainer without knowing how they had triggered this behaviour. I once attended a Join up demonstration by a book writing trainer during which he wondered why the mare he was working with would only follow him a few steps. What did the good man do wrong? Every few steps he looked over his shoulder to control if the mare was following him. Every time the mare turned around and ran away. Why? In the horse's language looking over the shoulder right at someone is a threatening gesture, to which the mare responded correctly.
If Monty Roberts really refers to predatorial behaviour he wouldn't have understood the background of his own method. A threat by an attacker causes fear and the flight response. If the horse unable to flee, panic arises. The best learning result, what a good educator aims at, is achieved in a relaxed atmosphere. If Join up is practised gently and not in a way that the horse stops running at some stage being sweaty all over and completely exhausted, then it can be used for some horses and in certain therapeutic approaches. But for heaven's sake it is not a method suitable for everybody. Due to Monty Roberts public demonstrations people get the impression that you only need to chase around your horse properly and it'll be as meek as a little lamb after max 30 minutes and all problems will be resolved. Fallacy!
Dr. Evelyn Hanggi, Equine Behaviourist and President of the Equine Research Foundation in Aptos, California.
Round pen training and Monty Roberts are not one and the same. Proper use of a round pen by a good trainer is not nearly as stressful as what you see with Roberts. He uses halters that create pain. He uses a buckstopper and right there he loses any credibility of nonviolence.
Horses do not learn well when they are fearful or in pain.
Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington from the Eco Research & Education Centre in Devon, UK, is the Grande dame of Animal Behaviour Research and she founded in 1959 the Research Stud Druimghiga.
It is awful that Monty Roberts refers to the behaviour of a predator. I have seen some shocking results of this. It is madness to frighten a frightened horse. This daft idea of "dominance" comes from the male competitive cultural society in which we all live. The fact of the matter is that the equine societies do not need to be based on dominance or competition, their food etc is either available for every one or no one, only at sexual times there is need for competition between males, and even that rarely occurs in the wild, as the mares rather like their own stallion and are not prepared to put up with intruders.
Dear old Monty does not seem to understand learning theory if he rejects totally feeding as a reward. There needs to be some positive reinforcer to make the horse learn. If Roberts only works with negative reinforcement - that means stopping to chase the horse around as a reward, this does not work as well as behaviourists know already for quite some time.
Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour in Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied Ethology.
He trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and is completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and its consequences for training.
It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear responses that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a round pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse's memory - the horse associates fear responses with the perception of humans.
The trouble is, these associations are not always evident immediately, they come back to "haunt" the relationship at a later point when stress levels are raised. All sorts of chasing horses should therefore be questioned.
In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when the horse is fearful.
_________________
Kindness is one thing that can not be given away because it will always be returned.
Article from Cavallo
December, 2003
((Introduction))
When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips American trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of his work, that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse. Robert's interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of respect and relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of pillars of Roberts' allegedly non-violent Join-up method.
How do equine ethologists and behavioural scientists interpret the chewing and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is Join Up really?
CAVALLO asked leading experts from all over the world. Here are some excerpts of their answers:
Dr. Barbara Schöning, Specialist in Animal Behaviour from Hamburg, Germany
From a very early stage the foal shows chewing and licking, the head can be lowered at the same time and the legs bend - similar to the suckling at the udder. Later this eating behaviour becomes a social behaviour that signals submission and appeasement during conflicts. Behaviourists believe that the empty chewing (bruxism) not only restrains the adversary's aggression but also calms and relaxes the chewing one, in the sense of a so called displacement activity.
If a horse shows this kind of behaviour, there is a reason for it: it feels threatened, which means it is stressed and therefore shows a behaviour that in its opinion is adequate in order to avert the threat. As it is impossible to flee in a round pen it is left with the options to attack, to surrender or to appease.
That is where drama comes into play: situations like those that Monty Roberts creates are for most horses incomprehensible. Why (from the horse's point of view) does an unknown person put on massive pressure in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding of the horse, is at stake?
Generally this means double stress which in my opinion brings it to the limits as regards animal welfare. I don't think humans should only be very gentle. Pressure is necessary every now and then during the training - but it has to be reasonable, graded and above all comprehensible for the horse. Then it won't suffer stress as it learns how it can resolve a certain problem.
Monty Roberts is neither gentle nor non-violent in the round pen unless gentle and non-violent is defined as "the absence of direct corporal punishment/manipulation".
To me psychological violence is also relevant.
Dr. Sue McDonnell holds a PhD in psychology and physiology and is Head of the Equine Behaviour Lab at the University of Pennsylvania.
She is one of the leading experts for Equine Behaviour in the USA.
Most behaviourists have concerns regards the naturalness of these natural horsemanship methods. Many horse owners who have been exposed to these methods contact our Institute subsequently for help. This indicates that they often encounter complications or even failure. Join up is a weird and ever growing changing combination of procedures that has very few if any practical applications beyond the "show".
Same results can be achieved in much simpler ways, though not as entertaining perhaps.
Now in the US it seems that Monty is going out, I haven't heard much lately about Shy Boy or any of his materials. The methods people have learned in join up type clinics can be fairly rough and border on inhumane and can cause psychological wrecks long-term.
Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the Institute of Biomedical & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is "licking and chewing". This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release. The simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee - increase in circulating adrenaline - dry mouth - licking. This means a horse may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it surely cannot mean "I'm a herbivore, and if I'm eating I can't be afraid of you" the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up. I've tried "join up" with three horses with whom I already had a trusting relationship. One joined up "classically" and followed me around meekly.
The other two displayed signs of being irritated by the procedure, one showed increased aggressiveness towards me. I was left wondering frankly what the point of the exercise was and realized that the driving away had a detrimental effect on the trust that I already had built up. > It is not a technique that I would consider using myself, or recommending to other people.
Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the book "Inside your horse's mind - A Study of Equine Intelligence and Human Prejudice".
She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses. I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are anxious about something as evinced by their body language. In some cases it may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates the need for caution when attributing specific meanings to particular gestures or facial expressions as these can vary according to context. To be fair, Monty Robert's pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that licking and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join up is not suitable for every horse.
The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship methods is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations of free-ranging horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than mares. The result is that the training methods adopted are based on very simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.
Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine Behaviourist and Therapist.
In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for Managing Wild Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management (BML) and she is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in Vancouver/Washington.
In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first their lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off their stress, they often will lick and chew - this is however more a sign of relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew, too, when they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back, sweating, pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe, just a way for the horse to release some of the built up stress.
I have known Monty Roberts for almost 30 years. Many of the "join up" techniques are not natural to a horse and in fact cause trauma. The video made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse demonstrated every level of "high stress indicator". Good horse ethologists or trainers take into account the horse's temperament and level of stress and then design the most appropriate method to help the horse learn with the least amount of stress and fear. Patience, kindness and being able to think like a horse, are the best traits a human educator can have to educate a horse. Join up once started out as a better way to "break" horses, and has just turned into just another way to control horses using techniques they do not all understand.
Dr. Dirk Lebelt, Specialist for Animal Behaviour at the Horse Clinic, Havelland in Brielow/Brandenburg, Germany
I have some doubts regards the claimed naturalness of round pen training. Even though the control of the movement of a lower status horse by a high status horse is a characteristic of specific equine behaviour. But while under natural conditions the lower status horse is able to evade the aggressions of the higher status animal and may signal its submissiveness, an evasion is impossible within the round pen. In my opinion this explains partly the quick success that often can be observed during round pen training. The horse feels it is at the mercy of the trainer, which is also called "learned helplessness". This leads to quick submission.
How far such a procedure, which surely doesn't correspond with the specific equine behavioural repertoire, is non-violent or not, depends definitely on the empathy and the experience of the trainer.
Andy Beck from the "White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project" in Northland/New Zealand studies equine behaviour and training methods on Thoroughbreds and Arabs.
The drive away in which the horse is put into 'flight' is potentially very frightening. The use of a mask increases the element of panic and the potential for "learned helplessness". While this may create an appearance of "control" it has also been shown to impede future learning. There is also the risk of producing abreaction in response to repressed emotion (fear, isolation). Horses that have already been well socialised to people become extremely confused by being driven away. The horse has no idea why it is harried and is most likely to experience the method as unpredictable aggression - the last thing a good trainer wants a horse to experience.
One of the most basic tenets of good horse management is that the handler is able to control their behaviour so that they do not trigger the response of blind flight as a predator would do.
Professor Katherine Houpt, Behavioural Psychologist and Physiologist at the College of Veterinary Behaviourists, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA
I have seen Roberts use the Dually as punishment - jerking on the nose rope and forcing the horse to back up. He doesn't call it punishment, but it is. His method is not suitable for every horse.
Very aggressive horses will charge. And it is not suitable for every horse owner, as some simply exhaust the horse. To drive the horse away is just a form of negative reinforcement - doing something unpleasant until the horse does what you want. That is not too different from kicking the horse until he trots. I don't think this method has anything to do with herd behaviour and I don't know how often horses are permanently cured of their problem if Roberts isn't there. Round Pen training is not miraculous.
Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School of Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh
In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method especially as this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round pen) was used for training horses in Roman times. If the horse is placed in isolation and in an unfamiliar environment and powerful psychological techniques such as those in the join up system are applied, you have to question the effect that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable dictator and the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the horse shows licking and chewing - all signs of stress.
Dr. Sharon Cregier, Equine Ethologist, former Lecturer at the Canadian University of Prince Edward Island.
She has published many books and articles on equine behaviour and animal welfare. I have never liked the "predator - prey" application to horse training. The horse is a social animal, seeking security and reassurance with trusted herd mates. An ill horse is driven from the herd and it is forced to try to survive on the edge of the herd where it is prey. Therefore it must be confusing to a horse to be continually driven from its source of security but unable to flee.
The round pen, notes veterinarian Robert Miller of Thousand Oaks, California, inhibits the horse's natural flight response. The free horse flees a predator in a straight line.
Regards the "chewing and licking" it has not been clear to me whether Monty Roberts is referring to the grooved "suckling" tongue or the nervous attack on, for example, hay in a trailer when a horse is under stress.
Dr. Willa Bohnet, Biologist and Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Center for Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Germany
To do a join up with an aggressive horse in a closed round pen is highly dangerous. The method on its own is not suitable for the behavioural therapy of a problem horse. For such a therapy it is necessary to combine, depending on the diagnosis, various methods (for example conditioning, systematic desensitization and anticonditioning in cases of fear and phobias). Under certain circumstances Join up may be suitable to establish the relationship as regards dominance between the trainer and the horse as a basis for further training.
Horses that are generally ready to accept the human being of higher status and to work with him, would be completely confused if they were chased away by the trainer without knowing how they had triggered this behaviour. I once attended a Join up demonstration by a book writing trainer during which he wondered why the mare he was working with would only follow him a few steps. What did the good man do wrong? Every few steps he looked over his shoulder to control if the mare was following him. Every time the mare turned around and ran away. Why? In the horse's language looking over the shoulder right at someone is a threatening gesture, to which the mare responded correctly.
If Monty Roberts really refers to predatorial behaviour he wouldn't have understood the background of his own method. A threat by an attacker causes fear and the flight response. If the horse unable to flee, panic arises. The best learning result, what a good educator aims at, is achieved in a relaxed atmosphere. If Join up is practised gently and not in a way that the horse stops running at some stage being sweaty all over and completely exhausted, then it can be used for some horses and in certain therapeutic approaches. But for heaven's sake it is not a method suitable for everybody. Due to Monty Roberts public demonstrations people get the impression that you only need to chase around your horse properly and it'll be as meek as a little lamb after max 30 minutes and all problems will be resolved. Fallacy!
Dr. Evelyn Hanggi, Equine Behaviourist and President of the Equine Research Foundation in Aptos, California.
Round pen training and Monty Roberts are not one and the same. Proper use of a round pen by a good trainer is not nearly as stressful as what you see with Roberts. He uses halters that create pain. He uses a buckstopper and right there he loses any credibility of nonviolence.
Horses do not learn well when they are fearful or in pain.
Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington from the Eco Research & Education Centre in Devon, UK, is the Grande dame of Animal Behaviour Research and she founded in 1959 the Research Stud Druimghiga.
It is awful that Monty Roberts refers to the behaviour of a predator. I have seen some shocking results of this. It is madness to frighten a frightened horse. This daft idea of "dominance" comes from the male competitive cultural society in which we all live. The fact of the matter is that the equine societies do not need to be based on dominance or competition, their food etc is either available for every one or no one, only at sexual times there is need for competition between males, and even that rarely occurs in the wild, as the mares rather like their own stallion and are not prepared to put up with intruders.
Dear old Monty does not seem to understand learning theory if he rejects totally feeding as a reward. There needs to be some positive reinforcer to make the horse learn. If Roberts only works with negative reinforcement - that means stopping to chase the horse around as a reward, this does not work as well as behaviourists know already for quite some time.
Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour in Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied Ethology.
He trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and is completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and its consequences for training.
It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear responses that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a round pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse's memory - the horse associates fear responses with the perception of humans.
The trouble is, these associations are not always evident immediately, they come back to "haunt" the relationship at a later point when stress levels are raised. All sorts of chasing horses should therefore be questioned.
In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when the horse is fearful.
_________________
Kindness is one thing that can not be given away because it will always be returned.
Sugarplum Furry
Well-Known Member
I;ve been to 4 Monty Demos in the UK and have never once seen him ask for volunteers from the audience. Perhaps it only happens in America, too 'Elf and Safety for the UK?
He used my daughter's little mare for a loading session at one of the demos. Arab/Welsh mare, 10 years old, 14.2., full of attitude, took us forever to load to get to the demo, lots of rearing, sideling round the ramp, trying to bolt off in the opposite direction, blood sweat tears etc etc.
She had half an hour's or so work in a Dually with Kelly Marks before the loading. I was there watching, in that time the mare, renowned for getting in a tizz about everything, became very calm and focused. There was no rough stuff, pulling, pushing or pikeys (!). The lorry was backed up into the arena, the gates put up. The mare refused twice to go into the lorry, on the third go she happily followed Monty into the lorry. The gates were taken away and she continued to go up and down the ramp, with Monty, then with my daughter, then with my daughter loose without a lead rope.
This was 3 years ago, and she still loads with no hesitation at all, she's like a different pony.
I urge you not to judge until you've seen for yourselves.
He used my daughter's little mare for a loading session at one of the demos. Arab/Welsh mare, 10 years old, 14.2., full of attitude, took us forever to load to get to the demo, lots of rearing, sideling round the ramp, trying to bolt off in the opposite direction, blood sweat tears etc etc.
She had half an hour's or so work in a Dually with Kelly Marks before the loading. I was there watching, in that time the mare, renowned for getting in a tizz about everything, became very calm and focused. There was no rough stuff, pulling, pushing or pikeys (!). The lorry was backed up into the arena, the gates put up. The mare refused twice to go into the lorry, on the third go she happily followed Monty into the lorry. The gates were taken away and she continued to go up and down the ramp, with Monty, then with my daughter, then with my daughter loose without a lead rope.
This was 3 years ago, and she still loads with no hesitation at all, she's like a different pony.
I urge you not to judge until you've seen for yourselves.
Rocky01
Well-Known Member
I'm a little sad that the article took the turn that it did. I personally have not used join up as such, though I have sent my horse away from me in an enclosed yard when he has been naughty (bitten me or the like) and he does apoligize in his demenor (he starts to pay attention to me and focus on me and what I want to do rather than what he wants to do) and when he does he is allowed to come and get a neck stroke and head scratch (my way of saying to him that he's forgiven).
I have also got a friend here in the US who bought a mare and yearling (the yearling had never been weaned) and the yearling (now her eventer) was an absolute pig (biting, kicking, lunging etc.) She did join up with her accompanied by consistent regular handling and she is now an absolute angel and is very very happy in herself so I'm not sure that it is as bad as the article implies.
Also there is another side to this whereby if a foal is misbehaving a mare will send it away and shun it until it wants to come back to her completely and it shows this by waiting for her body language to tell her that it is okay.
Also when we are lunging (something that we do with regualarity) we are in effect sending the horse away to do work by himself and we are the dominant one in that situation.
Anyway I'm not trying to say that the article has no basis, I'm sure that it does , or that the process has been way to marketingised (not sure if that's a word) I'm just trying to point out that it appears very one sided and without the proper information as to what the training actually involves so give it the benefit of the doubt.
I have also got a friend here in the US who bought a mare and yearling (the yearling had never been weaned) and the yearling (now her eventer) was an absolute pig (biting, kicking, lunging etc.) She did join up with her accompanied by consistent regular handling and she is now an absolute angel and is very very happy in herself so I'm not sure that it is as bad as the article implies.
Also there is another side to this whereby if a foal is misbehaving a mare will send it away and shun it until it wants to come back to her completely and it shows this by waiting for her body language to tell her that it is okay.
Also when we are lunging (something that we do with regualarity) we are in effect sending the horse away to do work by himself and we are the dominant one in that situation.
Anyway I'm not trying to say that the article has no basis, I'm sure that it does , or that the process has been way to marketingised (not sure if that's a word) I'm just trying to point out that it appears very one sided and without the proper information as to what the training actually involves so give it the benefit of the doubt.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
She did join up with a yearling, I would be concerned about this as it is akin to lungeing a yearling surely?
Laafet
Well-Known Member
I am sorry but I am going to stick up for Monty here. I am sceptical of all NH ideas but when the call for 'problem horses' for the Norfolk Demo went out in October for the current tour I thought I'd give them a ring. Tarquin was terrified of any stranger and it was giving me grief as I couldn't go away and leave him as no one could get near him at all when I wasn't there. We also had issues with getting him broken in. I phoned them up and he was chosen as the 'spooky horse' I wouldn't say he is spooky but he did not trust humans. I had to work so dropped him off at the ILPH for Monty's students to work him and see if he was good enough for the demo. This in itself was risky as at that point Tarquin would go mental if left in a stable while I went away. They need horses that show a reaction so that the mostly uneducated members of the public that go can understand what he does and Tarquin being the true showman that he is was deemed suitable. I am ultra protective of my boy and had not noticed small things about his personality that Monty saw straight away. He is a Welsh D x and so can be pushy, I just ignore it but it was this that was preventing me from progressing with him. Monty was quite rough with him but he needed it and I could see that he had a lot of respect for this old man. In the end he was following Monty onto tarpaulin and was so relaxed it was a joy to see. It was also reassuring that when Monty said 'this horse has great potential, he's a thinker' I believed that too and it was nice to hear someone else say it. Since the demo Tarquin has really progressed, he no longer gets stressed when stabled and most people can approach him. Whether it was my growth in confidence or Monty's talents I cannot say but I do believe in the way he works his horses.
Laafet
Well-Known Member
Cuttinghorse - would also like to say that as horses are not designed by nature to be ridden by humans then it can be argued that any type of training is cruel and while I can agree that advance and retreat etc is basically what a predator does in the wild, if we really wanted to be 'nice' to our horses we wouldn't keep them in 12 x12 boxes, small fields and ride them. Thoroughbreds wouldn't even exist as they are a purely manmade breed.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
but laafet isn't the thing that a heck of a lot of people follow MR because they believe his methods are 'nice'?
Laafet
Well-Known Member
I know and I went with a few other people from the livery yard that were 'oh isn't it lovely' but having worked with a young horses for a reasonable time I can see what is going on. The Dually is basically an improved version of the old 'rope over the nose' trick. I do believe that Monty Roberts version of NH is more positive in producing horses that you can ride and we do use his methods with our racehorses at work. However you cannot escape the fact that horses were once wild. Tarquin doesn't really understand this because he was born in a stable and handled by humans not out on a Welsh hill. But it does really p*ss me off that anyone can say that their horse wants to ridden. They don't think like that at all IMO they just accept what we do and I would like to think that I do it in a way that causes the least amount of stress, i.e not beating him up.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
yyes, I agree with the dually theory (only youg et to pay 50quid for it
) As a child I used to do 'join up' and the danger is impressionable kids tiring ponies out.
Of course assuming everyone who doesn't follow MR beats their horses up (or even uses a stick) is another thing devotees tend to do a bit.
I think you probably have gone in eyes wide open and the basis of it all is respect?
Of course assuming everyone who doesn't follow MR beats their horses up (or even uses a stick) is another thing devotees tend to do a bit.
I think you probably have gone in eyes wide open and the basis of it all is respect?
Laafet
Well-Known Member
Do agree with you totally and no I don't think that anyone that doesn't follow MR beats up their horses, just that long piece about animal behaviour got me going!
I work with racehorses and get enough stick for riding two year olds from people who think its ok to ride a 3yo warmblood in draw reins but thats a whole other story.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
hehe, well I disagree with you (or MR!) riding two year olds but that's life
I still loose school the pony and he still walks in to me at the end having had a whale of the time hooning around....
I still loose school the pony and he still walks in to me at the end having had a whale of the time hooning around....
Laafet
Well-Known Member
Well thats fine as long as you're not breaking in 3yo Warmbloods in draw reins!
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
nope
Laafet
Well-Known Member
Hideaway
Member
As I say the article was food for thought. I don't totally agree with what was said. I think it's great MR's methods have worked with some horses, but there will always be a few these methods will not work with. All horses are different and you need to adjust to each one. A lot of it is common sense.
The licking and chewing thing I'm confused about in what was said in the article because I have an off the track TB stallion I rescued where I am in the US, and when he comes up to me to say "hello" he always drops his head and licks and chews. Now I can't imagine he is stressed out or scared at all (I'm being quiet and saying hello too). I have never done join up with him. So I am assuming he's just acknowledging me as herd leader.
The licking and chewing thing I'm confused about in what was said in the article because I have an off the track TB stallion I rescued where I am in the US, and when he comes up to me to say "hello" he always drops his head and licks and chews. Now I can't imagine he is stressed out or scared at all (I'm being quiet and saying hello too). I have never done join up with him. So I am assuming he's just acknowledging me as herd leader.