Monty Roberts??

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Hi guys,

I am not on here every day so maybe I missed a thread about this already, but I was wondering...
I have seen several Parelli threads on here and generally they are not supportive, especially lately with that wierd video of Linda doing god knows what. I don't really follow or know much about Parelli's ideas so I can't make an educated comment.
Anyway, I have never heard any mention of Monty Roberts or Kelly Marks. So I wondered what people thought of their methods? I personally am very in favour of Monty, have read some of his books, and I thoroughly enjoyed a demo I saw in the UK last year.
So what do you guys think?
 
I think some of it is ok. However most is common sense and he has made a lot of money out of common sense. I didn't like the way he used to say that if you didn't buy all his videos and stuff about bringing on a young horse (£300+) that you didn't care about your horse enough.
Having said that he has taught a lot of people a lot of common sense so.

I have a few much older friends (60ish) who were old school type and used to prefer force and strictness, who since all the hype on NH of different sorts have started using much nicer ways, so it has to be a good thing
 
I went to one of his demo's the other year, and although like Soulfull said, a lot of it is just common sense, it was really interesting and nice to watch. I wasn't quite convinced that these horses were as crazy as implied and then we're transformed within 20 mins into rideable beasts, but it would be nice if it were true.
I didn't and haven't bought any of his products, but I think the basics that he teaches are all well and good.
 
Monty Roberts = showman

I used to have so much admiration for this man, he was my hero. Until I met him and saw him work. Showman/businessman through and through.

Kelly Marks = fantastic woman

I have lots of respect for her, she really cares about the horses, does not lie/make things out to be harder than they are. I still hold her in high esteem, although do worry about her becoming too much of a show-woman (jumping horse over laid tables etc) because of MR's influence.

As far as join up etc goes, a lot of it is common sense, and a lot of people take it way too far, but I agree with soulfull, that it does teach some people things that they otherwise would be oblivious to, so good news in that respect.
 
I have seen Monty several times and I like his calm manner as much as his ideas tbh. When I first saw them I was rapped and yes its common sense but still nice to have things demonstrated.

However I last saw them at Your Horse Live in November and thought things had turned into a huge marketing / money spinning operation and it was a huge plug for his on- line university. The other thing was that the demo's were tired I felt and once you have seen a horse loaded or a horse introduced to water or a join up they should have introduced new material. These demo's weren't too successful either, Kelly's horse wouldn't load for example and Monty's seemed to take forever, not that there's a timetable but i'm sure the horses are worked with before coming on stage so to speak.

Also Kelly's commentating and priming of the owners began to be irritating.

Just MO though
 
I first saw Monty on one of his very first tours in 1989 ( I think ) and back then he was a lot less of a show man. I agree it's common sense but lets face it there are a lot of people out there lacking common sense....! But having seen him a few weeks ago it has become much more of an show. I was a little dissapionted with his ridding and use of spurs and a very long shank bit. But hey I don't ride Western so maybe I cannot comment.

Kelly on the other hand rode beautifully in a rubber snaffle with no spurs and appeared effortless doing a trec demo and I loved every second. Such presicion and skill and a very happy relaxed looking horse enjoying his work.

I have read quite a few of both of their books and enjoyed them and taken bits of info that have helped me when I have needed a new slant on a problem . I haven't bought any of their products but would never say never ;)
 
Its interesting that you guys have mentioned the showman/marketing stuff. I must admit that has bothered me recently. I think the content and ideas are good, but I have little patience for the marketing machine that has arisen.
It was similar with the Dog Whisperer, nice guy with interesting and sensible practices. Then a team of marketeers and publicists arrive and the man has a set of the most ridiculously white teeth I've ever seen so that he looks 'better' on camera. Ugh!
Money money money!
 
I have been to two monty roberts demos, really enjoyed it. Liked his methods and like his encouragement for people to go back to basics and groundwork instead of gadgets and stuff. Fab principle

I have to say unlike a poster above I do not rate Kelly Marks at all! on first demo I saw she got the horse tangled in the long lines when lunging with two reins! second demo she was showing off on Pie and Fell off then blamed it on her reins being slippy due to cowboy magic which I wasnt exactly impressed with! just admit you lost your balance.

I have to say my thoughts on the marketing of it all and such, I think why not, why not make some money out of something you love. Plenty of people would have done the same thing. Without all that book/dvd stuff I bet less people would know his name and know his ideas.
 
I don't understand some of the comments, so if you are successful and selling a range of products that's bad then?

So that would make all the riders that endorse products / have them made under their names sell outs? Mark Todd, Oliver Townend, Funnells

Kelly Marks hasn't yet got a range of products, just some books. However this makes her 'better' as she is not a marketing machine?

Weird

Anywho I have met Monty, and i have a lot of respect for him, as a speaker he is very accomplished and has a very quiet manner. Ref the spurs and long shanked bit, this is western and he does a demo using fishing line for small trout (err cannot remember the weight), between the bit and reins and performs dressage movements to prove that a horse can be light. Unlike the German method of hauling them into shape and have a uber "firm" kontact!

Parelli, now I don't like them as much, I think Linda did some good stuff on rider positioning, but I think the ground work games are just a step too far for me.

The horse world needs showmen and razzmatazz, which is why we fail miserably to attract sponsors with the stiff tweed class English approach.
 
Oh I forgot to mention I last saw him in the winter and he was going on about some research that he had taken part in and how results were going to amaze people and show that his ideas worked compared with someone elses, scientifically proven he said. Results were due out within a couple of weeks, what the website..... Well I looked and guess what NOTHING!!!!! not a peep!!
 
I think there's a lotta hype about "Natural Horsemanship" being the "new thing" that everyone's gotta do. Basically, there's nothing new about having a good rapport with your horse and knowing what's going on in his head. The old horsemen knew a good thing or two about how to get the best from their horses and work well with them and sometimes there is a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater in a flush of enthusiasm for something "new" (and potentially expensive!!!).

I've had some help with my boy from someone who's highly experienced at working in a "natural" way, and has always worked successfully with problem horses because she looks at the WHOLE package, i.e. horse PLUS rider. She uses methods taken from people like Monty Roberts, Michael Peace, Parelli etc, but doesn't use their methods just for the sake of it but looks at what approach is appropriate for that particular horse and rider combination instead of slavishly adopting just one approach. Its worked for us! I had real confidence issues hacking solo on my (sometimes very nappy) cob and I've got strategies for dealing with him when he's feeling like being a toad which don't involve giving him a good hiding - he's had all of that and it didn't help him one jot, it just eroded his confidence still further, as in his mind every time he went out on his own he napped, and was punished for it, which built up the fear of hacking solo in his mind; vicious circle.

I do have reservations about some of the "hype" that is too often associated with the "Natural Horsemanship" thing; perhaps this is the American way of doing things - where you need to spend a great deal on the requisitie equipment and do various courses (all costing an arm and a leg) plus go through the various levels, and you can still be a bad horseman at the end of it all. A little knowledge being a dangerous thing perhaps.
 
Its not that I have a problem with Marketing one's ideas or products. Hell, marketing is what I do. However, there can be a saturation of products in people's minds which actually distracts from the original messsage and can damage the quality of the message as a result. If the message is for sale or only available to those who can afford it, it somewhat loses its original value.
All I'm saying is that a careful balance should be struck between making money but not selling out.
 
My opinion is from my own personal experience of using his methods.
I bought what appeared, the dream horse whilst living with his previous owners but once he was in his new home with me he turned into a demon. Broke two of my fingers and ripped my hand to shreds by bolting off while on the leadrein.
He would not come to me in the field and spent 5 hours at one point trying to get him in.
I bought the Dually and did the join up and to be honest he transformed from the demon horse to the dream I wanted. He's the most loving horse to me now and to think I almost let him go. :eek:
 
CotswoldSJ said:
I don't understand some of the comments, so if you are successful and selling a range of products that's bad then?

So that would make all the riders that endorse products / have them made under their names sell outs? Mark Todd, Oliver Townend, Funnells

Kelly Marks hasn't yet got a range of products, just some books. However this makes her 'better' as she is not a marketing machine?
Click to expand...

If you go and ask Monty a question, he replied "you need my headcollar/dvd/book. If you ask Kelly, she replies "have you tried x, y, z - some of these products might help". THAT is the difference.

As for professionals marketing their own line, John Whitaker does not claim that by using his saddle you will solve all your jumping problems. Anky actually states that those dressage riders wanting a long leg should not use her make of saddle, as she designed it to suit her position, not lengthen everyone elses leg position. With Monty, he promotes that the answers can always be achieved through his merchandise. With the professionals it is more of a designer status to have their products, rather than making claims it can solve everything.
 
I wouldn't use him personally at all; I wouldn't let him touch my horses with a barge pole for reasons I won't go into but suffice to say, I don't like hypercrites.
Most of his 'teachings' are plain old common sense that I was taught years ago when I first started riding; it was all part and parcel of it. I feel genuinely sorry for people learning now as so many times, they're not taught the basic horse handling skills we were taught right from the beginning and as a matter of course which make them easy targets for someone like him.
 
I agree with MFH9 - people just aren't taught basic horse handling skills when they are kids. I see so many people who have only just got their first horse as an adult and they really haven't a clue. I didn't own my first horse until my early 20's but spent my childhood and teenage years hanging round riding schools and doing any menial task just so I could be near horses. Unless you have a thorough grounding then all the Monty's or Parelli's in the world aren't going to give you that common sense you learn from experience - which takes time, years and years of being around horses. People want to learn things so quickly these days - read a book, follow he steps of a course and bingo you are a horseman. Nothing beats mucking out a thousand stables, watching a million lessons, getting trod on, barged, bitten and chucked off a few hundred times.
 
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I agree with MFH9 as well - Natural Horsemanship = Old Fashioned Horsemanship, a lot of which has simply been lost over the years very sadly.

A friend of mine who "markets" (!) what she does as "common sense horsemanship" and trains in the USA for a month each year tells me that the Americans can't believe people over here haven't sussed Monty Roberts out yet;)

That's not to say that a lot of modern methods and equipment should be discounted - it's taking the good bits from everywhere and combining them properly to achieve the desired result.
 
I went to see Monty and Kelly a little while ago and really enjoyed it. Yes his methods can be described as "just common sense", but if it is so common I don't see a lot of it being practised!
I really like the idea of communicating with horses using your body language to mimic their language as closly as possible, so I like to use some of his methods such as join up. I don't think it is a cure for all ills though!
I do take all the "unridable wild nutter to safe as houses in twenty minutes" business with a pinch of salt - of course they've worked with the horses before the demo's!
I'm afraid I don't have much time for Parelli, he seems to be out to make as much money as possible, and that video of Linda was just awful to watch!
 
I think Monty Roberts teachings generally good - is he a saint? probably not - I am not an avid follower but when I have a problem it helps me analyse what I might be doing wrong looking at myself before blaming the horse. I've seen a few horses with loading problems become easy to load - no it can't always be done in one session especially if you are not as practiced but it does work. It doesn't work when people half do it. I've seen some nasty accidents with people using the "traditional" methods of whipping their horses on to horseboxes using brooms and getting tangled in lunge lines my friends horse nearly broke her neck another on my old yard nearly broke its back as it forced its way under the breach bar with saddle on after an hour of trying to force it on!

The dually is very useful if it is used properly and what is wrong with reading a book or watching a DVD? Yes he is a bit of a showman but then you have got to be to attract and keep the attention of the people that need it most. As to John Whitaker I doubt he has much to do with his branded products - someone else invents them and they stick his name on so it sells. I know for a fact the Carl Hesters Fantastic Elastic reins were not invented by him - My sisters friend had the US patent over 10 years ago.

I learnt to ride 35 years ago if NH is nothing new and traditionally taught then how come every year people come out of BHS riding schools without a clue of how to treat their horses? Where else does this "common sense" teaching happen? Are not Monty and Parelli just fulfilling a need? People just want to have better and safer relationships with their horses - especially those who come to riding as adults and miss out on Pony Club - why doesn't the BHS offer anything similar? If it does it isn't marketing it very well.
 
I went on an IH training course as a helper (couldnt afford the £550 to go on the actual course), everybody there had a great time and would endorse IH, Kelly Marks & the Dually.
I purchased a Dually myself and it has worked wonders on my pony. I came to riding late and have confidence issues myself and have found that their 'methods' have been a great help to both me and my friend at our field.
It is a lot of common sense but I have had so many people tell me that my pony 'is just being naughty, give them a good smack to bring them back into line....' That is not my way of thinking and I love the IH methods but I guess its horses for courses as usual and its what works for you and if it works and feels right - as long as its kind IMHO - then its all good!!!
 
Like most things in life, if you take the parts you like/feel work for you then they are good, but if you follow slavishly and close your mind to other ideas then most things will fail.

Monty is a very good horseman and spends all his time doing his job. Most of us would miss subtle signs he sees or we would react more slowly than he does. Having seen him back a horse in under 30 mins I would not let my horses be backed that way.

I respect Richard Maxwell more, we spent a whole day working with him and he taught my then 14 year old daughter to long rein with 2 reins during that day along with teaching us how to continue working with our very spooky cob. All good solid groundwork using both 'natural horsemanship' and more 'traditional' methods.

I don't, as a rule, hit my horses but I would never say never!
 
I have been an owner who has taken a horse to a demo - and I promise, the horse that I took as a bad loader had previously broken the ramp on my lorry... twice.

Since then, I have done the foundation course and a couple of others. I do agree with the comments about Monty being a Showman and my personal preference is to see Kelly demonstrate, because I think that you can learn a huge amount from her - she explains in a way that makes sense.

The comment about it being common sense is absolutely right - but I think that there are a lot of people who tend to lose their rag when things don't go according to plan. The IH way is often to ask the horse to do something simple - which they then do, which lessens the handlers anxiety and makes for a more positive situation all round.

I have once taken a horse off someone who was trying to get her horse to stand still by kicking it in the stomach. It didn't need IH, Silversands, Max Maxwell, Michael Peace, Old school or anything else to know that this was never going to work.

I know nothing about Parelli, but I don't think that the recently touted video has done them any favours at all...
 
I have never seen a full Monty/Kelly demo and I am VERY wary of anything that seems too much "joiny-inny". That annual Parelli-fest, for example, is my idea of hell! However, I got some really good results from NH methods when I ran into problems with my mare in recent weeks. She was bargey to lead, bargey in her stable and kept running out and escaping. I was desperate, and ended up getting Kelly's book "Perfect Manners".

I started working with her on the ground and have finally got her to stand still on the lunge line and let me walk away from her - before, she would always walk into my space. I can move her about better, though she will still not lower her head when she walks through an "L" of poles. There is still a long way to go before she can do all the Foundation Excercises really well, but I'm happy to keep doing them, as they can only do good, as far as I'm concerned!

I think I had always been a bit of an eye-roller when it comes to NH stuff, but I have to say, in recent weeks those exercises have been a real godsend. Even if it's just coincidence and my horse has just calmed down, I feel better and more confident and now I, who I have to say, would have been a "shout and hit it" person, can deal calmly with problems. So it's doing me good too. Oh, and I'm also planning to buy a Dually.

I have had dealings with Kelly for features I have written and she is always helpful and great and I am surprised to hear about her "showing off" and then falling - but then I suppose we all have bad days. Buying into a cult is not my style, but getting real help definitely is. Thats said, I would always add advice from R Maxwell, Michael Peace, etc, to the mix - just not the Parellis!
 
I used to like all that stuff, practised and studied it, saw demos etc - but if you delve into behavioural studies it sort of goes by the wayside - MR says that the principles of join up are normal in herd life, for example, but his research is based on feral (not wild) mustangs who were in some stressful situations (e.g. not having enough space/food) according to some studies, while studies of truly wild zebras showed no exmaples of similar behaviours (such as head lowering and licking and chewing when being chased off by another herd member) in the same way, except one zebra who did react in this way when chased by a lion to her death - when exhausted she head lowered and finally turned to face the lion, essentially presenting him with her throat. some people won't like that study of course and i may be shouted at now but it's interesting all the same!!

Aside from all that, there are some really hypocritical points, e.g. in demo he says that some research has been done showing that, during the 'running' phase of a join up (the intiial bit) the horse has an amazingly low blood pressure. in the next sentence he says that we are using the horse's panic instinct to show him he can run away - which is completely at odds to them having low blood pressure (and, as someone else said, that bit of research hassn't been published or anything - not that i know of anyway though correct me if im wrong!!). I find myself not wanting to use my horse's panic drive AT ALL when training him, even if he does then follow me nicely afterwards - personally, i'd rather gain his trust and respect through a longer and slower, but calmer, process. however, i know there are people who swear by it. It probably depends on the horse, maybe if your horse needs to be more respectful it's better, but i find it a bit sad really that panic can be 'used' in that way, personally. just MO though, sorry if i offend anyone...

Similarly, in one of his news letters he advised someone with a fearful but agressive horse to do join up wiht a stick covered in plastic bags so that she could scare him off if he came near before she allowed him to, whihc just seems like really weird advice and completely at odds with the idea of friendship and trust and all that.

also, i find the thing about breaking in in half an hour really weird and a bit uncomfortable - surely with a fight/flight animal you're far better taking your time, every time?!

some of the stuff they teach is sensible, e.g. for spook training kelly marks uses habitaution and also suggests taking the spooky thing and walking away form your horse wiht it, since it's therefore not linked with someting predatory in the horse's head (or it would just keep approaching) - that kind of thing is all good, and a dually is arguably better than some alternatives that people use in its place, such as the chiffney of course!! however, i think like with everything you have to just use your head and take the good points and disregard the bad.
 
A good point about Join Up - I think there is too much emphasis placed on it! I don't have a round pen and don't like the idea of activating the panic button either. So I did my own version, where I sent her away on a long line, and then got her to change direction with my body language. Then I invited her in, and she was fine, I was able to unclip the lunge line and have her follow me. It's not perfect, but it works for me and I will do it occasionally. I just worry about people doing Join Up all the time, and treating it like a gimmick "Oh look, my horse follows me about so he loves me more" - I don't equate the two.
 
i think what you have to remember is where the phrase to break a horse comes from! any body showman or not that can make people aware that it is possible to back a horse without breaking their spirit has my vote. i dont think alot of you realise what people did and still do to break horses.
 
Yes, that's true of course and is often used as an arugment which is used in support of the dodgier parts of parelli/MR etc, but it doesn't mean that anything is good as long as it's not using hobbles/sacking out in the old-style western sense/extreme fear/flooding etc. Of course it's preferable to do a join up than it is to tie a horse to a post and sack it out or whatever, but that doesn't mean that doing a join up is the healthiest way to train it.
 
I can't use the quote thing, but its been mentioned above about how horses are 'broken' (Monty would never use that term I think) in 20 mins or less, and that it seems a bit rushed.
But MR has said frequently that you should approach it like you have all day long and it'll take 5 mins, but if you approach it like you have 5 mins it'll take all day or longer.
I don't think the speed with which he backs horses from scratch is based on him rushing against the clock to prove something, I think it just takes him less time cos he's been honing his skills for years and has it somewhat down to a tee.
 
I've read through all the above posts and everyone has very valid points. I didn't know who to answer and quote etc as I agree with pretty much all of it and points from all views!!

I think the problem is that there are so many types of horses and problems, and also a huge number of training methods with differing solutions, although obviously even though I have said its 'the problem', its also a very good thing, as it gives us an infinite number of things to try.

For me, no one method or person is the best or the worst (excepting the ones that beat into submission each and every time!) and I have found that reading the horse and working to find a solution for that particular horse and that particular problem on that day is the only thing that works for me. That means learning all the time and studying each method I come across then using what parts I can to help the horse.

But its made easier as I LOVE learning, am a book worm, a demo and clinic addict and a dvd lover when I get the time!!!!!!! :p

PS. I have the Parelli dvd's, Monty's books, Richard Maxwell's books, Kelly's books, read a lot of Mchael Peace stuff, working on some others, trained as a BHS instructor, and attended a lot of demo's. Confused doesn't cover it!!!!! :D:D
 
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