More lameness woes - what does this sound like

[FlyingCircus]

Appears/feels sound walk and trot out hacking
Appears sound walk and trot on hard
Not sound on a circle in the school in trot

Looks lame behind, causing a hop in the front end and a head nod.

Had one vet out who was a bit pants and told me she was sound. Getting another second opinion next week.

But what does this sound like it could be? I'll try and get some videos of the movement.

 

[TheMule]

Appears/feels sound walk and trot out hacking
Appears sound walk and trot on hard
Not sound on a circle in the school in trot

Looks lame behind, causing a hop in the front end and a head nod.

Had one vet out who was a bit pants and told me she was sound. Getting another second opinion next week.

But what does this sound like it could be? I'll try and get some videos of the movement.

Generally soft tissue if showing up on the soft on a circle, so tendon/ ligament. Most likely hind suspensories from your description, but obviously a huge range of other things it could be so I would want a full work up

 

[FlyingCircus]

Generally soft tissue if showing up on the soft on a circle, so tendon/ ligament. Most likely hind suspensories from your description, but obviously a huge range of other things it could be so I would want a full work up

that was my thoughts RE suspensories.

Really hope not. She's only rising 6 and was backed last year but had lots of breaks taking her nice and slowly whilst she was growing.

Sound down to avoid obnoxious kissy noises!

 

[Red-1]

that was my thoughts RE suspensories.

Really hope not. She's only rising 6 and was backed last year but had lots of breaks taking her nice and slowly whilst she was growing.

Sound down to avoid obnoxious kissy noises!

A vet thought that horse was sound??? Not an equine specialist I hope?

By the description I would have said suspensories, but then looking at the video I would wonder about arthritic hocks (presuming you haven't been trotting a circle on hard).

I would have her to a hospital for full work-up, starting with trot up and flexions and going through the nerve blocks, X ray and scan. In reality it could be anywhere, but the initial trot up and flexions should pin point it to the correct leg, the nerve blocks to the correct place on the leg and the X rays and scans should give an actual diagnosis.

 

[FlyingCircus]

A vet thought that horse was sound??? Not an equine specialist I hope?

By the description I would have said suspensories, but then looking at the video I would wonder about arthritic hocks (presuming you haven't been trotting a circle on hard).

I would have her to a hospital for full work-up, starting with trot up and flexions and going through the nerve blocks, X ray and scan. In reality it could be anywhere, but the initial trot up and flexions should pin point it to the correct leg, the nerve blocks to the correct place on the leg and the X rays and scans should give an actual diagnosis.

I know...did hock flexions and saw her moving in school. Admittedly didn't see her on a circle (their call, not mine).

 

[FlyingCircus]

So very frustrating that the supposed experts around me seem to be failing me left right and centre at the moment!

That and my other horse has literally just come back from boxrest from an undiagnosed issue...!

 

[TPO]

I dont like "what can you see" vids because generally everyone is looking for *something* and if you stare for long enough everything morphs into something awful.

Having said that sadly your horse is noticeably lame.

I'd be getting an appointment with an equine vet. Sorry

ETA I cant believe a vet said a horse moving like that is sound ?

 

[FlyingCircus]

I dont like "what can you see" vids because generally everyone is looking for *something* and if you stare for long enough.

Having said that sadly your horse is noticeably lame.

I'd be getting an appointment with an equine vet. Sorry

She has an appt in for next week with second equine vet ?‍ Just hoping we get to the bottom of it this time, as you say, there is quite clearly something.

This thread is more pandering to my need to jump to conclusions and simultaneously try to be hopeful whilst being convinced she needs to be retired ?

 

[dorsetladette]

Time to try another vet by the sounds of it. We have a few ropey vets locally FC who I wouldn't let work on a dead hamster.

Can you send that video in to your vets before your next visit explaining what you have here. It might be that a more senior vet then looks and decides that going into the surgery for a work up. I email my vets for there experienced view on things when I need to. I usually means I get a vet with an interest in the area I need arrive.

Fingers crossed its something minor - you do have an uncomfortable pony in that video

 

[FlyingCircus]

Time to try another vet by the sounds of it. We have a few ropey vets locally FC who I wouldn't let work on a dead hamster.

Can you send that video in to your vets before your next visit explaining what you have here. It might be that a more senior vet then looks and decides that going into the surgery for a work up. I email my vets for there experienced view on things when I need to. I usually means I get a vet with an interest in the area I need arrive.

Fingers crossed its something minor - you do have an uncomfortable pony in that video

I'm baffled by my encounters with local vets over the years! I've been through a number of them, with this being the latest move.

She does look very uncomfortable and has only become worse since this video

I'm debating between continuing to walk her in hopes it doesn't get better such that the vet can't see it next week. Or leave her completely alone, start pen-rest now such that she doesn't further injure herself. Can't box rest as she is stressy and box walks.

 

[Red-1]

Time to try another vet by the sounds of it. We have a few ropey vets locally FC who I wouldn't let work on a dead hamster.

Can you send that video in to your vets before your next visit explaining what you have here. It might be that a more senior vet then looks and decides that going into the surgery for a work up. I email my vets for there experienced view on things when I need to. I usually means I get a vet with an interest in the area I need arrive.

Fingers crossed its something minor - you do have an uncomfortable pony in that video

I did this with one of mine, it is why I always take them in for a thorough work-up. I have found that the real lameness experts tend to be based at the bigger equine hospitals, where they have all of the equipment to hand. Often the top lameness person isn't an ambulatory vet, they take referrals, and will book you straight in if you self refer to the hospital. Being as you are dissatisfied with the first vet, you need to ask for a second opinion, and it makes financial sense, IME, as well as getting the right person, to go to into the hospital.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I did this with one of mine, it is why I always take them in for a thorough work-up. I have found that the real lameness experts tend to be based at the bigger equine hospitals, where they have all of the equipment to hand. Often the top lameness person isn't an ambulatory vet, they take referrals, and will book you straight in if you self refer to the hospital. Being as you are dissatisfied with the first vet, you need to ask for a second opinion, and it makes financial sense, IME, as well as getting the right person, to go to into the hospital.

I'm a bit reluctant to throw my eggs in that basket, as I took my other boy into the surgery of the previous vets and it was a waste of time and money.

I think I will keep the visit for next week and request a referral to the likes of Liphook.

 

[RHM]

I would go straight for a work up at a hospital. I had multiple visits from vets saying mine was sound and then just to bite and box rest etc, with a lameness as profound as that I would want to know what’s going on.

re suspensories, they tend to be lamer on a circle and the injured leg will struggle more on the outside. If you lunge on both reins you might be able to see more clearly if there is a “bad” leg per say.

Bloody awful when they go lame, hope your holding up ok!

 

[FlyingCircus]

I would go straight for a work up at a hospital. I had multiple visits from vets saying mine was sound and then just to bite and box rest etc, with a lameness as profound as that I would want to know what’s going on.

re suspensories, they tend to be lamer on a circle and the injured leg will struggle more on the outside. If you lunge on both reins you might be able to see more clearly if there is a “bad” leg per say.

Bloody awful when they go lame, hope your holding up ok!

Yep, she is much worse on this rein can see it the other way, but not as clearly. There's no head bob on the other rein either.

 

[throwawayaccount]

sorry about your pony hopefully a full lameness workup will get you the answers you need, my mare looked similar and had a hole in her suspensory ligament

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would definitely get a referal to a hospital if I didn't have local trusted vet it's what I would do.

 

[TheMule]

She is significantly lame- I am shocked a vet couldn’t pick this up ?
I'm not that far from you and could recommend a couple of vets, otherwise I would be looking to book her in somewhere like Endells for a proper work up. If it helps, I now don’t think it looks like chronic PSD and would suspect something more actute

 

[shortstuff99]

What is her breeding and is she willing to go forwards (despite the lameness)?

 

[RHM]

Yep, she is much worse on this rein can see it the other way, but not as clearly. There's no head bob on the other rein either.

I would hedge my bets on it being a soft tissue injury on that left hind in that case. On a positive note (not sure any lameness is that positive) she is more lame than my pony was with his suspensory injury. So probably more of an acute injury which do often heal better.

 

[Red-1]

I'm a bit reluctant to throw my eggs in that basket, as I took my other boy into the surgery of the previous vets and it was a waste of time and money.

I think I will keep the visit for next week and request a referral to the likes of Liphook.

The likes Lipook is what I meant by bigger equine hospitals. You could ask for a referral straight there, as a second opinion. It cuts out the middle man, saves £ I the long term, IME.

 

[FlyingCircus]

What is her breeding and is she willing to go forwards (despite the lameness)?

She's a welsh D. I'd have to dig out her passport for specific lines.

She has always been quite willing to go forward and is/was quite a sharp ride in the school.

A couple of people have suggest PSSM?

As a bit of background to this issue, she came up unlevel in a lesson where she appeared to be hip hiking her right hind. Wasn't "lame" but definitely not quite right. Stopped lesson there and then, gave her a few days off. Seemed to get a bit better, then a lot worse and was doing this under saddle first time I took her back in school after some light hacking after her days off.

Since then the first vet saw her trot up in the school and did hind flexions- thought she was sound. She didn't look terrible on the straight (nothing like on a circle). So I nodded sagely and got out a well respected chiro.

Chiro saw her on day this video was taken and thought it was a strain due to weakness in the stifle. Agree with her she does appear to have weak stifles. Did 10 days or so of following advice with steady hacking, polework in hand and keeping out of school. Even had a few little trots out hacking and she felt fine.

Then I took her in the school for some more in hand work. Did a few circles walk - she seemed OK. Asked her to trot and she is very not OK and appears worse than before.

That takes us to now ?‍ where I've organised another vet and will push for a referral to an equine hospital.

So sad to see her as she is. She's such a sweetheart and would carry on endlessly if I asked.

 

[FlyingCircus]

The likes Lipook is what I meant by bigger equine hospitals. You could ask for a referral straight there, as a second opinion. It cuts out the middle man, saves £ I the long term, IME.

I don't know that I can with having moved her to a new practice? I suspect they will want to see her first.

At this point, I'm kind of just resigned to spending the call out for them to give 2nd opinion and then going off to hospital. Money does matter in the long term, but the £80 or so it will cost is, I suspect, a drop in the ocean of my ongoing vets bills between the two horses ?

 

[FlyingCircus]

I would hedge my bets on it being a soft tissue injury on that left hind in that case. On a positive note (not sure any lameness is that positive) she is more lame than my pony was with his suspensory injury. So probably more of an acute injury which do often heal better.

Kind of positive, I think!? ?

Just desperately don't want something that will cut her ridden career short before it has ever really started. I can't afford 3 and already have 2 - one of which who is near enough on full loan based at my yard. Not sure I can bare the thought of having and looking after 2 horses long term but not riding ??

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

She is certainly obviously unsound. I would suspect her o/s shoulder. Although having read more of the history, I guess not. Definitely a case for a 2nd opinion.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I really hope it is something that is easily treatable and fixable, she really does look like she is an absolute gem temperament wise.

 

[FlyingCircus]

She is certainly obviously unsound. I would suspect her o/s shoulder.

This was my first thought before I had chiro out, and we talked about what's going on in the hind end such that front end may be compensating.

Could honestly be almost anywhere with the way she is presenting though.

 

[Red-1]

I don't know that I can with having moved her to a new practice? I suspect they will want to see her first.

At this point, I'm kind of just resigned to spending the call out for them to give 2nd opinion and then going off to hospital. Money does matter in the long term, but the £80 or so it will cost is, I suspect, a drop in the ocean of my ongoing vets bills between the two horses ?

I have done it twice before. If you want a vet to look at something that another vet has already been involved with, the first vet has to be told that you are having a second opinion, it is a professional courtesy. Usually a second vet won't treat without this being done.

If it were me, to save money and time, I would ring Liphook and explain that you are seeking a second opinion for a performance workup on a lame horse. I have done the same with Rainbow, and Shelf in Halifax when I lived nearer there (different horses). They both took me straight on as a direct client, with their lameness specialists. I did the same with Liverpool for a horse with colic where I felt the attending vet was being inefficient. Once with a suspect growth on the eye too.

No need to pay for another vet to do the referral. With the Liverpool one it was same day delivery! The others were around a week, from memory. With the lameness workups, the horses were that awful type of not-quite-lame-enough to really see what was going on. Both still competing successfully at dressage/eventing. I knew something was wrong though, rest didn't cure it so we went for the full she-bang. Both of them initially trotted up sound at hospital and the lameness needed flexion, investigations and working in circles, uphill, downhill, lungeing and under saddle to diagnose. They had the equipment to start treatment the same day too.

Of course, you may prefer to have the other vet first, that is fine too!

 

[shortstuff99]

She's a welsh D. I'd have to dig out her passport for specific lines.

She has always been quite willing to go forward and is/was quite a sharp ride in the school.

A couple of people have suggest PSSM?

As a bit of background to this issue, she came up unlevel in a lesson where she appeared to be hip hiking her right hind. Wasn't "lame" but definitely not quite right. Stopped lesson there and then, gave her a few days off. Seemed to get a bit better, then a lot worse and was doing this under saddle first time I took her back in school after some light hacking after her days off.

Since then the first vet saw her trot up in the school and did hind flexions- thought she was sound. She didn't look terrible on the straight (nothing like on a circle). So I nodded sagely and got out a well respected chiro.

Chiro saw her on day this video was taken and thought it was a strain due to weakness in the stifle. Agree with her she does appear to have weak stifles. Did 10 days or so of following advice with steady hacking, polework in hand and keeping out of school. Even had a few little trots out hacking and she felt fine.

Then I took her in the school for some more in hand work. Did a few circles walk - she seemed OK. Asked her to trot and she is very not OK and appears worse than before.

That takes us to now ?‍ where I've organised another vet and will push for a referral to an equine hospital.

So sad to see her as she is. She's such a sweetheart and would carry on endlessly if I asked.

I was wondering about PSSM too, that can make weird hard to define lameness.

 

[SusieT]

Has anyone hoof tested her? simple things are common, could be a bruise, could be a major soft tissue injury. impossible to tell from video though I have found with mine often the more dramatic lameness are coming from foot and bruising/abscess

 

[Lipglosspukka]

I would be horrified that a vet said that horse is sound!

If I were you then I would make a complaint and look to get my money back. Send them the video and perhaps some information on Specsavers.

I'm not that good at seeing subtle lameness. I'm better at feeling it. This however is clear to see. Vet is a Muppet.