Motivating my lazy cob

[Cassy]

I tried my first attempt at an intro dressage test on Saturday. On the plus side my cob behaved well and I think she tried but looking at a video of our test she looked very slow and I looked as though I was working much harder than her. So ideas please for getting her more off the leg when schooling. My hacking is limited plus she won't go out on her own. I try really hard when schooling not to keep nagging her with my legs and would love her more forward so that I can concentrate more on my position.

 

[AmyMay]

Why won’t she go out on her own?

 

[JFTDWS]

There are many ways to teach a horse to go forward from the leg appropriately, but the first questions you have to ask are whether the horse is truly capable of what you're asking. Is your cob sound, and fit enough for her work? Assuming the former, fitness is, in my experience, the biggest determinant of responsiveness in a horse which understands the aids. If, however, she's overweight and unfit, you're on the back foot to begin with.

If the horse is sound and fit, you need to educate her to respond to your first, and lightest request. That generally means sending her forwards at all costs, and refining it once she has the idea. It's generally easier to do on a hack than in an arena, at least at first. It shouldn't involve excessive force - it's more about timing, sending her forwards, not blocking her, and releasing as soon as she moves forward.

 

[Jules111]

I bought an overweight lazy cob 6 months ago. Lots of hacking, even if you can drag somebody along on foot. Build up fitness and muscle. Lots of long reigning so moving forward and straight. NOOOO nagging with leg. My instructor advised me to wear spurs but I could only use them gently after a light aid. Within a few months lazy cob is much more forward, he listens and moves from a light aid, spurs gone after a few weeks. A good instructor should make a huge difference.

 

[Cassy]

Thanks for your responses. I do have an instructor and she makes me use a lot of leg and she does go much better but I would like to try something else to get her forward.

 

[windand rain]

I often think that lazy is a bit inappropriate a word. Most horses are not so much lazy as unfit, fat, sore, or switched off and disinterested. The key is in finding something they really like doing, making sure they are fit and healthy and listening. You need some way of making them enjoy what they are doing. Constant niggling just turns them off even more as it becomes a dull but irritating nag not an instruction to go forward.

 

[ihatework]

Fitness and training. It’s hard work, especially on those types naturally inclined to be backwards thinking and idle.

If the horse doesn’t hack alone then it’s nappy. If it’s nappy then it’s not off the leg so that is the first thing to address. You have to be so very disciplined in this, and actually quite tough in the beginning on some of them. With the caveat you also set them up to succeed at it, manage their confidence etc.

Get the horse slim & fit, out doing a variety of stuff and get a good trainer/rider involved to help you with the response to the leg.

 

[oldie48]

The master class given by anna Ross at the Hartpury Festival of dressage was about riding a "lazy" horse as opposed to a very forward "hot" horse. Her advice was ride a "lazy" horse with your legs off and a "hot" horse with your legs on. What you need is more reaction to your aids not necessarily stronger aids but they may have to be quite strong to begin with, if you ask her to go forward, she must react but be immediately rewarded by you taking the pressure off her. Totally agree about fitness, nothing like a bit of extra weight to kill enthusiasm for work but also check that your cob is straight. If you can sort the napping out I think you might find that she schools better as it's probably all part of the same problem, she's ignoring the rider.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm in total agreement with the excellent wisdom already given on here! Especially "oldie48" as my trainer always says basically the same re. use of leg.

I hope you don't mind me making an observation OP, and PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder whether you're in the situation with your cob of trying to teach a pig to whistle. i.e. you might try hard to impart the information but the thing you're trying for just ain't gonna happen, end of!! Perhaps this horse was ideal for you at one stage of your riding ability but now you are obviously wanting to do more, but your horse perhaps isn't physically capable or just sheer doesn't want to!! Maybe, and I'm saying this respectfully, you are now a little "under-horsed" and need something different to take you to where you want to go??

Some horses, cobs in particular, just can't get their heads or their bodies around dressage - and/or there are pain or soreness issues that make it painful for them to do so.

Also I wonder if your cob might have been in a riding school at some stage - which would explain why he is so far behind the leg; this is a typical riding school problem and certainly my cob mare was like this when I had her, she'd been used in an RDA set up and was so far behind the leg it felt like you were sitting on her ears! She also had considerable pain issues and needed treatment before I did anything else. Which is why I would suggest you get your cob checked over, teeth, back, saddle-fit, just to make sure the unwillingness to go forward isn't pain-related.

For now, I would be inclined to try and give your cob as much variety as you can; for instance, in the arena you could put up a little TREC course. This would give his cobby brain something to think about, and would keep him alert and interested. Also perhaps (if he won't hack solo) a few summer Fun Rides with plenty of good canters!! Perhaps pop a fence or two?? I think you somehow need to stimulate his brain and get him thinking outside the box a bit.

Of course the "old fashioned wisdom" of the best way of getting a sticky horse well and truly off the leg was to take it hunting............. I suspect your cob would have quite a bit of pop in him out in the field and I rather think you'd have plenty of forward-movement! Cobs like this are very capable of transforming themselves when hounds pick up the scent!!

 

[pastit]

Great thread - love these replies. Only thing I can add is groundwork. Not only will it show you if your horse has more of a problem on one side or the other, it does sharpen them up if you make it fun. So all our horses are taught to reverse, go side ways, do shoulder in and position themselves to open and close a gate, as part of the groundwork. When the rider gets on top, the horse already has an idea of what to do and the rider just has to fine tune the aid. My best training aid is a packet of polos and I try and make this a very special treat with tons of praise for their first half step backwards up until they are reversing round cones for example.. Never fails to amaze me how polos can make a horse have the intelligence of Einstein!

 

[lamlyn2012]

Raised trotting poles will help get the back end working and so help with forwardness.
It adds variety too their work too.

 

[Nessie London]

I'm pretty new at this, but I too have a cob. He is MASSIVELY motivated by food.... he's a horse labrador. So, we do loads of transitions, if he's not responsive, we stop, we try again. If after a few tries it's still not happening (and someone has inspected me and made sure it's not my position or something else), I will give him a very light tickle with my whip (the lightest touch to let him know I'm not happy), and when it works, he gets a treat and made a massive fuss. He's trying sooooo hard and I'm learning to wind him up so he's super motivated. It doesn't have to be a fancy treat, but something little like a slice of carrot or apple. best of luck . #cobscan

 

[Cassy]

Great advice thank you all. My mare had spent quite a few years in a riding school when I bought her back in December. I am an old rider and after buying the wrong horse (too forward and unpredictable) I found my lovely steady cob. It is early days in our partnership but she is coming along well eg. A few months ago I struggled to get her to trot a circle without petering out, now we are managing canter as well as trot. I have done a lot of ground work with her which has helped as she now responds to my voice aids. She does throw in a buck if you use a whip, so I guess I have backed off backing up my leg aids with a tap of the whip if she ignores me. Hacking out in company she is more forward and is too strong when cantering behind another horse but hard to motivate when asked to lead. We have regular lessons but I am a bit concerned with the advice to shorten the reins and keep using the legs to get her forward. So when schooling I am trying to work on lots of transitions to get her more responsive. Trot, canter, trot seems to gee her up. Sorry no jumping at my age but we do trotting poles and lungeing over small jumps. She is my last horse and I love her to bits but need her to put a bit more effort into our schooling sessions.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm sure that I read on here once that their horse's 'laziness' was actually a symptom of PSSM?

 

[be positive]

I'm sure that I read on here once that their horse's 'laziness' was actually a symptom of PSSM?

It is definitely one symptom, others include being nappy, bucking/ kicking out at a whip or strong leg aid among many other subtle or less subtle signs.
I have known many 'lazy' cobs over the years and now suspect that PSSM may have been the underlying reason and would now put them on vit e once other basic checks had been done and ruled out as a cause.

 

[AmyMay]

The key to your horses forwardness is to stop riding in the school and get her out hacking. She will go on her own, you just need tact, time and a bit of bloody mindedness.

Having spent years in a riding school she’ll be totally switched off and bored by that environment.

I speak from experience having owned an ex riding school horse myself. We ditched the school and just got out and about to see the world. We hunted over the winter and did fun rides over the summer. She turned out to be a fantastic little horse.

 

[Cassy]

Thanks for your responses. My mare was in a riding school. She is improving slowly from barely being able to get a trot we can now get round an intro dressage test, all be it with little enthusiasm. We can also maintain canter for short distances. She does throw in a buck if you use a whip which is why I have not used a whip to back up my leg aids. In company she is keen to hack out but hard to hold back! So I know she is capable of forwardness. I have done lots of groundwork with her and she is becoming responsive to voice aids. I try and vary her work but jumping Is not an option as I am an older rider and avoid activities which might result in me coming off. I bought her in January after struggling with a too forward horse so I got what I wanted! Just need a bit more forwardness from her so that I am not the one sweating after a ride!

 

[Keith_Beef]

Is your cob sound, and fit enough for her work? Assuming the former, fitness is, in my experience, the biggest determinant of responsiveness in a horse which understands the aids. If, however, she's overweight and unfit, you're on the back foot to begin with.

There used to be a Normandy cob gelding where I ride, who arrived after spending between six and twelve months out in the pasture. He was considered slow, difficult to get moving, and lazy.

There were three of us (two young women plus me) who were reliably able to get him going in trot and canter, but for the first couple of months he found me hard work: three laps of canter around the arena (double Olympic dressage size), and he was huffing and puffing like a steam engine.

One day, we were going to hack out for our group lesson, and I'd been given a different horse, after three weeks of the cob. When I asked why I was told that outside, he had no brakes... He would tank off.

In the end, the yard manager got rid of him. Nobody but the three of us had any pleasure riding him, and he had a destructive streak. He kicked a hole in the stable brick wall and in his cement feed trough; the first thing I did each week when going to groom and tack up, was kick my feet through the straw to check for bits of masonry.

 

[Bartleby.]

There used to be a Normandy cob gelding where I ride, who arrived after spending between six and twelve months out in the pasture. He was considered slow, difficult to get moving, and lazy.

There were three of us (two young women plus me) who were reliably able to get him going in trot and canter, but for the first couple of months he found me hard work: three laps of canter around the arena (double Olympic dressage size), and he was huffing and puffing like a steam engine.

One day, we were going to hack out for our group lesson, and I'd been given a different horse, after three weeks of the cob. When I asked why I was told that outside, he had no brakes... He would tank off.

In the end, the yard manager got rid of him. Nobody but the three of us had any pleasure riding him, and he had a destructive streak. He kicked a hole in the stable brick wall and in his cement feed trough; the first thing I did each week when going to groom and tack up, was kick my feet through the straw to check for bits of masonry.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying about traits the breed can have, but they're actually a draught horse not a cob, the name is misleading.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I'm sure that I read on here once that their horse's 'laziness' was actually a symptom of PSSM?

It was my geldings main symptom of a suspensory issue.. he was the laziest hes ever been. Since being given the all clear hes a different horse.

Could be worth a vet check if nothing improves. Sounds like she could be bored.. riding in a arena all the time is so boring to a horse (and me, I find!) hacking does them such good.

I mainly hack mine, which he loves and would never go in the arena one day after the other, just once a week.

 

[Annagain]

I had an instructor whose mantra for a lazy horse was "click, flick, kick, stick". You start with a click and get no response so you move on to giving a 'flick' with your legs i.e a small squeeze. Then if no response more of a kick and if that fails, the stick. It's about training them to respond to the more gentle aids to avoid the stronger ones. The trick, as others have said is to increase the pressure until you get a reaction and then remove it as a reward. They need to know things will escalate but that once they do as they're asked, they're left alone. (Assuming all is well physically, of course.) It worked wonders with my boy - to the point that my friend clicked her fingers the other day when she got a bit animated talking to me and he trotted off!

 

[Upthecreek]

I had an instructor whose mantra for a lazy horse was "click, flick, kick, stick". You start with a click and get no response so you move on to giving a 'flick' with your legs i.e a small squeeze. Then if no response more of a kick and if that fails, the stick. It's about training them to respond to the more gentle aids to avoid the stronger ones. The trick, as others have said is to increase the pressure until you get a reaction and then remove it as a reward. They need to know things will escalate but that once they do as they're asked, they're left alone. (Assuming all is well physically, of course.) It worked wonders with my boy - to the point that my friend clicked her fingers the other day when she got a bit animated talking to me and he trotted off!

Absolutely this. Most horses are pretty clever and as long as you are consistent in what you are asking and the response you are expecting they generally soon learn. If she is dead to the leg because of all the kicking she probably endured at the riding school, spurs could help for a while as long as you know how to use them properly. Also, as others have said, get out hacking and having fun. Coming from a riding school the horse most probably associates the school with boredom.

 

[eggs]

Provided your horse isn't overweight, is reasonably fit and in good health then I think it is more a question of retraining her. The time she spent in a riding school probably has not helped as horses often learn to 'switch off' in this environment.

I think transitions will be your friend - lots of halt - walk - trot to begin with. You can add canter in later. It is usually easier to motivate a horse out hacking with a buddy and if you have some-one who is happy to go out with you and not canter that could be very useful.

I was also taught that with a hot horse you need to keep your leg on and with a lazy horse you need to 'whisper' your aids so that they are listening and waiting to react. Nagging with the leg is often counter-productive on a not so responsive horse. It sounds as though your mare has trained you not to use the stick by bucking.

As has already been mentioned I was also taught that you ask once with the leg, if you don't get an immediate response then you use a stronger leg aid and if you still get no response then a flick of the schooling whip behind the leg (no slapping down the shoulder with a short whip). The most important thing is that you let the horse go forward even if it is in canter when you were expecting trot. Do NOT immediately try to pull them up as that is just going to confuse them. Do lots of walk - trot transitions in quick succession so that your horse starts to anticipate that they will be asked something. It also helps to keep the energy in the pace rather than getting into trot and doing endless circles with the energy dribbling away. I tend to do 15 - 20 steps then ask for the transition then another 15 - 20 steps with another transition and so on. Eventually you will be able to use changes within the pace (working - medium trot).

 

[Peter7917]

I do something similar. Squeeze with the legs, if no response then an obvious kick on, still nothing then a crack with the whip. Tonnes and tonnes of transitions. They normally get the point after just a few minutes.

 

[oldie48]

Oh I now understand why your horse won't hack alone, as an ex RS horse she will have probably always been in a group. do you have someone who will hack out with you, or could you build up her confidence by having someone on foot with you? I think you may find that if you can spend less time in the school she may become more enthusiastic when you do take her in. In an ideal world I'd suggest you ditch the arena for 6 months and school her on hacks but in your current situation you may not be able to do that. I suspect that she has learned that if she bucks when she's tapped with a whip, the rider gets off her case and she bumbles along at her own pace. If you are not happy to take her on yourself (you may be) you could either get someone else to ride her through it or you could lunge her to get her a bit more accepting of the whip and also to train her to your voice. Ex RS horses can be quite tricky when taken out of their comfort zone so if you are not feeling very confident with her it would definitley be worth enlisting help. Good luck with her. I have bought a horse in the past that felt safe when he was actually behind the leg and then I struggled to get him forward and on the aids, it can be very frustrating.

 

[TotalMadgeness]

Mine was considered lazy and in any dressage test he would feel like he was going backwards. He was a nightmare to ride - stiff, slow, grumpy, always on the forehand, leaning on the bit, refusing to hack out faster than a shuffle, but equally very strong if you cantered him outside.

He's an IDx and prone to obesity which then leads to breathing problems (amongst other things!). We later discovered bone spavin in both hocks - probably brought on by the obesity.

Now that we manage his weight and bone spavin he is much more comfortable and as a result he is a forward going uphill 'light' horse who is improving day by day in his dressage. We'll never 'cure' his bone spavin but it is certainly manageable! I also hack him out a lot more nowadays which seems to help him mentally (as well as physically) because I suspect he associated the school with discomfort.

So my first port of call would be ensure she is not in any pain. If it is a lack of fitness hacking will help but if she won't hack out alone easily you can try going out with long lines or doing 'in hand' hacks.
If it is lack of interest - Le Trec obstacles (in hand / ridden) could help spark her interest. My horse loved doing Le Trec in the arena despite his previous discomfort as he associated the obstacles with treats (low calorie treats I hasten to add). He'd see the obstacles and start snorting, ears would prick and he'd get a bounce in his step!

 

[Cassy]

Lots of good advice. Thank you.

 

[SEL]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying about traits the breed can have, but they're actually a draught horse not a cob, the name is misleading.

And with a HUGE % of type 1 PSSM in the breed. Not really designed to be a ridden horse, especially school work.

 

[SEL]

I'm sure that I read on here once that their horse's 'laziness' was actually a symptom of PSSM?

Might have been me with my part-bred draft x Appy - it's like riding through treacle when she's at her worst. Couldn't work out how I could have a sensitive, off-the-leg horse one week and seemingly overnight have one who was so backwards.

OP - it's likely it's a training issue from being an ex RS pony but it's always worth a vet check up inc bloods when he's really backwards