Mottled legs on foal. Any colour experts out there?

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daisalph

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My bright bay colt has mottled patterns on the inside of both fore and hind legs. He is 12 weeks and is losing his foal coat gradually elsewhere but this brown and white dappling is different. He also has a white belly splash and 4 white ragged socks. Any significance?
 
Can you describe more of what you call mottling preferably have you got pictures? and what colour/ breed and if possible pictures of the parents?
 
Right. I'll load a few up that I've taken today. Here goes....
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Sire was Masterpiece, a skewbald.
 
This is the second masterpiece foal with either splash or sabino or the new DW gene.
What is Mums breeding is she a TB or Tb cross
 
Interesting. She's an Irish bred TBx with, I suspect, a fair bit of ID and possibly Connemara. Unfortunately she had no papers when she came over 5 years ago but she's a very nicely put together lightweight hunter type. Are the mottled legs a characteristic of splash or sabino or DW (what is that by the way?)
 
Sorry its a newly discovered Dominat White gene that is in certain familes of TB and other breeds I only read about the TB breeds which is interesting to me as I own a TB mare with these markings and have a foal with the same as you have.Your mare has white on her feet does she have ermin marks as well? black spots or colour on her white?
raise a native is in the family in my girl and the USA ones that have been studied
 
in the pedigree of Masterpiece there is a mare called miss Susy and in her pedigree she hasa stallion called cyllene but KarynK nows so much more about genetics than I do I am also a member of a TB breeding board that has much interest in these genes in the USA.
I learn a heck of a lot from them as there are horse's that crop up again and again in these pedigrees.
basicly I have learnt today that the DW gene is linked to e which is Chestnut and that is how our boy has passed it on to a mare that carries it its very interesting the sabino gene is carrid throught E which is black and when you get DW and Sabino which could be a bay horse with these genes hidden it is expressed in the Phenotype of the resulting foal.
But from what I gather it again can be passed on if the foal is a red carrier DW that is.
 
our mare carries DW back through sadlers well and Oscar, the foal has inheritied the same gene in a bigger dosage from the dam and the sire as Ricco grandsire is Nureyev who is by Northern dancer which is related to native dancer
 
Gosh they are very similar must be spash in there I would have thought.has any masterpiece foal ever had a blue eye? its a good indicator of Splash
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your mare has white on her feet does she have ermin marks as well? black spots or colour on her white?
raise a native is in the family in my girl and the USA ones that have been studied

[/ QUOTE ]

We nearly volunteered our TB mare to you when you wanted TB broodmares on loan a couple of years back - she's bay and has really minimal white and she has a small not even sock on her hind leg, more like a stripe, with black spots in it.

She's by Wonderful Surprise out of a mare called Impatience. I know his breeding is on allbreed pedigree but the dam isn't so I'm going to look later to see if they are linked!

We got enough of a surpise when we used a nearly black (but apparently v dark buckskin) Welsh D on the bay mare and got a palomino!

I love all this colour stuff, just watching my mad Appy's colour changes is fascinating!
 
Would have said Sabino for the foal a while ago!!! The reason why you are seeing the mottling though is because the foal coat, (quite common) was hiding the white with buff coloured hairs, now that coat is beginning to fall out the white is showing. But with “paint” patterns it will always have been there and you will not get further extensions unlike Appaloosas!!!

Have to be quick tad busy! Angrove have you got the info re linking kit gene finds to base colours? Usually when genes are linked they are situated fairly close together. Have heard of this before with inherited diseases, it is said to increase the likelihood of inheriting both genes as a package if you like, so with two dominants instead of the usual 25% both 50% one or other and 25% none, you could increase the 25% both up to around 80%, yet both genes are available separately and have been inherited separately in offspring.

There is apparently a Welsh A breeder somewhere that knows what you have to breed together to get a splashed white to really show, but rather unsportingly refuses to tell, that would be Sooooo helpful!!!!!

They have not tested a huge amount of horses as yet for the known Kit gene whites so it is early theory changing days atm. I think that the original white modifier theory still holds and that accessory genes, probably on or near the Kit gene will provide the answer to why the difference in white available to an individual and probably eventually how a horse can “store” white modifiers.

It was said by someone that the Chestnut was a “danger” to the appaloosa and that because it let more white through (being a recessive) that getting more chestnuts was bad news! (I found that a bit funny!!!) . It was clear the writer had missed the point, it’s things like the grey gene, sabino cropouts, paints, a whole very popular foundation Appaloosa line of minimal splashed whites, and mainly the snowcap pattern that are responsible for progressive extension of white at the expense of appaloosa coat patterns!!! The original Appaloosa bred by the Nez Perce did not appear have the extreme whites we find so convenient today, but with them comes a price! Dependant upon the genes that make up their extended whiteness, they need solids to reproduce the leopard pattern, so it’s difficult to close the books!!!! Even the very minimal characteristic appaloosas (probably registered as non Characteristics) can contribute to a mating! Look at Jana’s mare!!! Breed most Apps with or without patterns together today, that are not both from a very long line of leopards and you will get a lot more white.
 
Oh Ginger nags let me know what your research pulls up sounds very interesting to me! and thanks for thinking of us we are always on the look out for TB mares with White on faces bums backs tummys high whites ermins list goes on
Hi KarynK
Yes apparently the the chestnut gene carries to Dominat white on Kitt and the black E carrys Sabino get the two together and WOW more dosage effect this seems to be rining true as Ricco Carries what i think is sabino and is balck and white What a Blaze is bay so there for is E and now e as she has thrown a chestnut and Ricco is Ee so that menas we have a very compatable mating with EeEe sire and dam bring the newly found Dominat whit and sabino my little fellas white is very sharp no roaning blurring especially on the legs.
such a shame that the welshy breeder wont let on but I think that the DW they have found recently is in fact the splash white gene.
only a theory but there seems to be a lot of denial of splash in the US colour TB industry only a few are saying splash is in the TB.
so interesting I just need someone to buty little man and stand him as a stallion so we can prove all our theorys.
as he should be able to throw 50% of colour same as the other foals by masterpiece isant it so cool that this is in the TBs that are coloured ie masterpiece and Ricco how fab are they and there breeders!
 
Hi,

Have taken advice and had a DNA test done on my Masterpiece colt with the belly splash and mottling and it turns out he is negative for both sabino and tobiano. Strange - I wonder what is causing the white patterning then?!
Mind you I hope it's accurate as they sent me the results for the wrong horse initially. They did the second test free to make up. I guess I'll finish off registering him with BSPA as a non-coloured solid bay.
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Thats because no TB or clyesdale or arab have ever tested positive to SB1 sabino I have had my mare tested for sabino and frame and shes negative it only leaves splash or dominat white or tobiano and she is not tobiano.
there is no test yet for splash and the dominat white test is only available through research at UC Davis in the states or a swiss prof I will get you the link for the swiss prof if you wan to test.
http://www.genetics.unibe.ch/content/index_ger.html
Here is the address and link for the DW test in Europe:

Dominant White:
University in Bern, Switzerland
Prof. Tasso Leeb
this information comes curtesy of Gwen at the address below.
_________________
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
 
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