Munchausens by proxy in owners

Nudibranch

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 April 2007
Messages
7,117
Location
Shropshire
Visit site
The vet was telling me they have a case of this and it's really difficult to deal with (obviously). Then it struck me that there are definitely people on here who, while they may not quite be suffering from it, are far too obsessed with the minutiae of their horse's health. It's as if it's a hobby almost. Is this just an extreme result of improved diagnostics, and the availability of information all over the internet? Or have there always been people who micromanage their horses and revel in reeling off a list of their supposed medical conditions?
 
This is something I have always wondered too.

Now there isn't anything wrong with being observant, but I do think you can fiddle and intervene far too much.

When I worked as a groom, some of the liveries were SO pedantic it was unreal and I just throught, "why"?

I suppose the other side of thing is that as a society we are getting better at diagnosing and treating so many more injuries, we don't just put things down to "naughty horses" anymore, we actually look for a cause for the behaviour instead of punishing it.

My checks go as follows for my mare:

1) looks normal, no blood or swelling
2) is sound
3) eating/drinking/pooping

:D
 
Hmm interesting. I think there's a greater awareness of conditions these days. For example as a kid a horse that bucked was usually just labelled as naughty or the spooky one was just plain spooky. These days you'd look at KS for the bucker, check saddle fit, physio/chiro etc. and consider ulcers/magnesium deficiency for the spooky one.

That said, since Pops has been injured I've become hyper aware of every minute change to her legs, and yes I've become that neurotic owner. But when you have a horse that seems to balance on a knife edge you worry that anything you miss might be the difference between them being ok or not.
 
The vet was telling me they have a case of this and it's really difficult to deal with (obviously). Then it struck me that there are definitely people on here who, while they may not quite be suffering from it, are far too obsessed with the minutiae of their horse's health. It's as if it's a hobby almost. Is this just an extreme result of improved diagnostics, and the availability of information all over the internet? Or have there always been people who micromanage their horses and revel in reeling off a list of their supposed medical conditions?

I have actually felt like in the past certain people have resented the amount of time and money I have spent rehabbing my horse. When a horse has an injury it will overcompensate in others areas so you will therefore being calling out the vet a lot more for other problems. I am not obsessed with my horses health to a huge degree but I always take early intervention if I can see a problem brewing, or will get the vet out if I do not trust my own judgement and I can see how this might rack up a number of calls that other owners probably wouldn't bother with.. But that doesn't give me munchausens by proxy.

If munchausens by proxy is common with humans hurting humans, then it must be equally as common with people harming animals to get attention for themselves. Here is a paper about the subject if anyone is interested: http://www.magonlinelibrary.com/doi/abs/10.12968/coan.2016.21.10.586?journalCode=coan
 
Im not sure about Munchausens but I definitely think some people are too obsessed with horses health. But I'm basing this on HHO, which would have a higher amount of "obsession" because its a forum :p

In the past people would have gone by their horse and know what is normal/abnormal for their particular horse and be able to gauge how ill etc. But with internet there is more access to pathology awareness - its become a bit like checking your symptoms online to see whats wrong with you - usually ends up being anaemia, cancer or some rare disease lol.

Eg. Shetland got a clout round the head last night. Obviously sore but nothing to see other than pony tender to touch in area. Stabled for night (normally wanders round yard & fields) and I did a "concussion check" on him later. Still sore, eye a bit weepy, unable to see any swelling/difference between sides and he was eating/drinking/rolling. So i gave him a bit of danilon for the soreness (quite hard to gauge how much for a shettie!) and let him be. Other people may have phoned vet immediately or asked online which would probably have resulted in answers of vet, bute, and telling off for letting a much bigger horse in same field with him lol. Common sense is needed with horses! :)
 
MSbP is not about having a real problem, be it ever so small, but about fabricating or inducing an illness/injury to gain personal attention and sympathy. I think it's very rare. Spotting signs early and calling the vet if necessary are signs of good ownership, not illness in the owner.

If a vet comes across an owner who is not simply making stuff up(which is time wasting but at least it's paid time) but inducing illness, I can see that would be a very difficult problem to be faced with. How do you prove it, for a start?
 
My horse fractured his leg a few years ago and was put in a cast and cross tied. A while later , some one elses horse on the yard had a minor kick, she told everyone that the vet had come and he had fractured his leg but she was allowed to put the Robert jones bandage on. She literally wrapped it layers of vet wrap and cross tied the horse for weeks. Horse was then left on box rest for months and months. The horse was never even x rayed so she had no idea whether it had a fracture or not, she just made it up and made the poor horse suffer by locking in the stable. She kept reporting on it on facebook and having people sympathise with her terrible time and the bloody horse never ever had a fracture! ( I have the same vet and she said it was never x rayed). Same person has lied a lot about illness she has had too ( some apparently terminal) and about people she knows being in tragic accidents. Bizzare in my opinion
 
I've one. Wasting a wonderful horse who in a normal Persons hands would make a lovely dressage horse. But no he's got this, that, something else, they can't do this when riding cause he does this etcetc (the fact the saddle was two sizes too small might explain some things)
 
I see a lot more of people giving human "qualities" to their horses which is often to the detriment of the horse. Over-rugging because the human is cold, keeping horses in for days on end because the weather is a bit miserable (one in particular is going stir crazy right now), not exercising them because the horse 'doesn't feel like it', letting natives gorge themselves into obesity on ad lib haylage because its 'cruel' to not let them share with the other horses.

I do see people paranoid about every lump, bump and scratch but funnily enough if it looks like they might need to incur vet callout charges then it all seems to get better quickly!
 
This does exist in animal owners, even to the extent of deliberately harming animals in their care. There was a case of a woman in the US who was injecting her horse with insulin to make it ill. I also know of a woman who our local vets refuse to attend as she is at best time wasting, at worst inflicting minor injuries to incite a call out. It is attention seeking behaviour.
 
I know of someone that is doing this to horses they have. Vets and other care givers has expressed concern but are struggling to find a way to deal with it. This particular case is very scary.
 
I’ve heard someone call it by Munchausens by pony!

I think it manifests in someone people who don’t actually want to ride.

Personally the cost, angst, extra slog of broken pony, is something I’d massively rather avoid!

It is interesting though, and I think different vets take different attitudes, and some take a more exhaustive route.

I am largely a live and let live owner, with similar vet. My horses are 18 and 14, and both fairly high mileage, and there is a fair bit underlying on my older horse that could be diagnosed. We x-rayed him for persistent abscess, and there are many changes in his feet, and think he has wide ranging arthritis, but not sure there is merit in injecting multiple joints. Careful shoeing, regular supporting work, regular body work keeps him on the straight and narrow. But whilst he is happy, healthy, and working sound, I think it is best not to look too hard.
 
I’ve heard someone call it by Munchausens by pony!

I think it manifests in someone people who don’t actually want to ride.

This! Although I do think there's quite an important difference between someone actively causing their horse harm to gain attention, vs. fabricating unsubstantiated health issues (aka worrying about nothing) that prevent one from moving forward with riding (or whatever other goals one might have to spend time with one's horse). In the latter case, the owner might waste a lot of money and time on the vet and micromanaging, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's detrimental for the horse, unless the micromanaging involves extreme living conditions/diet.

I would much rather that people own up to just wanting a pet, not to ride, and enjoy the time they have with their horse!
 
I know someone like this. She decided her pony had the startings of laminitis despite being in a bare paddock. Instead of seeing how she went or stabling her, she put her in a pen in someone else's field that had s concrete base and left her there for a fortnight looking at grass up to her knees! She has also been known to stable ponies all summer for some rare and imaginary illness. The last one was a cremello. Instead of smothering him in sunblock or turning out at night, she cooped him up for 3 months and he never even got out to stretch his legs.

The same person has recently been prosecuted for animal cruelty after abandoning them in a stable for two weeks, supposedly because she was depressed, so I do think mental Illness comes in many forms.
 
Last edited:
Ironic that I should see this thread today - I swear my pony is setting me up to look mad.
In autumn she had a cought that went on for a few weeks and wasn't going away. I called vet to chat over symptoms and ask if he thought she needed looking at. He came out to look at her...from the moment he pulled up in the car park she stopped coughting and hasn't coughed since.

And now...she's been showing classic ulcer symptoms for about 2 weeks. Wants to take my head off when I change rugs. Done a few sloppier than usual poos. She has been stuffy for a long time and all sorts of other investigations have been done. So this along with the new extreme grumpyness meant I called the vet yesterday to see if hind gut issues might be the cause.
Yesterday evening she was sweetness and light and practically wanted to hug me.
This morning for the vet she was absolutely fine.
I'm going to borrow a go-pro to prove I'm not loopy!
 
I don't believe I have ever come across anyone with this or maybe I haven't noticed

I notice people sometimes with only one horse focusing on things which I wouldn't necessarily worry too much about and new owners worrying about anything and everything but I just accept that as par for the course,
time and confidence usually resolves that or their dwindling bank balance with monthly vet bills

It sounds a very expensive and time consuming illness but deliberately hurting an animal to get attention must be fairly unusual
 
I think a lot of horses are quite capable of self-harm without the need for their owners to help them :D.

I've had a fair share of issues with the horses I've had and none of them have been in my mind. I do think though that a lot you just need to get on and manage the best you can. My horse is well and happy but at 22 I'm sure he has some niggles but I still hack him several times a week and will wait for him to tell me when it's too much.
 
I'll be honest, I've felt like this sometimes, having a horse that has so many lameness issues. It was when the farrier said something about me loving to have to look after him so much that really got my goat, (I think I was washing his feet out to prevent thrush) and it made me pretty mad! No, I'd prefer to have a sound horse that I can jump on and just enjoy actually. All his lamenesses have been diagnosed by a vet, even though some of them have been very on/off lamenesses, grr.
 
I don't see much malicious stuff. Certainly there is a fair amount of fabricating/exaggerating health issues as an explanation not being able to ride or achieve much with a horse. Often people who hold themselves out as a very proficient rider but are unable to get the horse training results to back it up.
And I think there is also a lot of horses who have physical causes found for what is essentially it's personality. Horses are not robots that only fail to perform a task because they have a malfunction.
On the other hand, greater awareness of various physical conditions and how they can manifest and be alleviated has been a very positive step forwards on equine management. You can't blame knowledge and advancement for what some people choose to do with it.
 
I think full-blown MSbP is a fairly rare condition, but we're almost all guilty of over-worrying about some aspect of our horse's health - same way you would for a treasured pet, family member, good friend.
 
I moved off a yard once as I believed the YO might hurt one of my horses on purpose. I had witnessed a particularly distressing situation where she had her daughters horse put down for no reason against the vets wishes. I was in the stable next door when the vet came out (she didn't know I was there), he gave the horse a clean bill of health, she told everyone it was terminally lame and a week later is was dead. It was heart breaking when her daughter had loved the horse and he was perfect for her as a nervous rider. She then purchased a succession of flashy but totally unsuitable horses for her daughter who had a few bad falls. YO's own horse was always ill apparently and, other than a couple of hours in a field every day, did nothing at all other than stand in a stable rugged and bandaged to the eyeballs. I started feeling uneasy when comments were being made about hypothetical things that could happen to my horses. When one did get hurt in the field she over reacted hugely and had to become totally overinvolved in how the horse was treated against my wishes. I gave a months notice and moved the next day.
 
Point of order Munchausans by proxy Is now known by the alternative phrase i.e. Child abuse.

Surely MBP refers to specific the mental illness involved. An alternative phrase for it is Fabricated or induced illness (FII) if you need one but it isn't a simplistic as your comment.

I can think of a very sad situation recently where I had my suspicions about the mental health of the owner, which ended up in the planned death of the animal.
 
yes at last someone has recognised it. I loaned a pony it spent more time in horspital than out had absolutely nothing wrong with it but I got text after text telling me it had cancer, was lame, had a damaged back and a multitude of other terminal or life threatening illnesses at best diagnoses that would make a field ornament, at worst to shoot it. Got it backstraight from the horspital and it has been 100% well for the next 6 years
 
I see a lot of people who like the attention of having a ill horse and quite a lot who use sometimes imagined ailment to avoid riding an animal they are scared of. I think insurance feeds it as it makes unnecessary treatment affordable and some vets I'm sure like the income stream from the worried well. I don't insure and assume my horse is fine and as a consequence she appears to be the healthiest horse I know. It helps that my vet tells me to go home and have a glass of wine if I slip into flapping rather than booking her in for a load of tests!
 
Ironic that I should see this thread today - I swear my pony is setting me up to look mad.
In autumn she had a cought that went on for a few weeks and wasn't going away. I called vet to chat over symptoms and ask if he thought she needed looking at. He came out to look at her...from the moment he pulled up in the car park she stopped coughting and hasn't coughed since.

And now...she's been showing classic ulcer symptoms for about 2 weeks. Wants to take my head off when I change rugs. Done a few sloppier than usual poos. She has been stuffy for a long time and all sorts of other investigations have been done. So this along with the new extreme grumpyness meant I called the vet yesterday to see if hind gut issues might be the cause.
Yesterday evening she was sweetness and light and practically wanted to hug me.
This morning for the vet she was absolutely fine.
I'm going to borrow a go-pro to prove I'm not loopy!

No idea re the cough, but I think the recent grumpiness and sloppy poo might mean that she was in season. My companion pony does that :)
 
I see a lot of people who like the attention of having a ill horse and quite a lot who use sometimes imagined ailment to avoid riding an animal they are scared of. I think insurance feeds it as it makes unnecessary treatment affordable and some vets I'm sure like the income stream from the worried well. I don't insure and assume my horse is fine and as a consequence she appears to be the healthiest horse I know. It helps that my vet tells me to go home and have a glass of wine if I slip into flapping rather than booking her in for a load of tests!

I have known a lot of horse owners that seem to like having an ill horse as well, one particular woman did have mental health issues she would call a vet out if her horse looked in the wrong direction, she was well know for over feeding everything and both of her horses were pts due to laminitis, they were fed totally unsuitable sugary feed and hardly ever ridden and we're kept stabled a lot, but she wouldn't listen to any of the vets that had tried to give her advice she just seem to love getting a vet out then relished in telling everyone about it.
 
Top