Musings on a horse's way of going

JennBags

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Just catching up on Luhmuhlen, and Harry Meade was talking about how easy a chestnut made it look going through the tricky water, and he said "of course it's not a puller". Led me to think about whether a horse is just a puller, or if this is trained into them; or if it can be trained out of them. I'm guessing not, as the riders at this level might know a little but about what they're doing 😉 but thought it might make an interesting topic.

Please feel free to add your experiences and knowledge. I'm too much of a numpty to have much to say on the subject
 

DiNozzo

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I think its probably mostly just how a horse is; something who is a bit arrogant (or anxious too I suppose) and keen to get on with it will pull.

Something a bit more polite in how it sees life might not.

I imagine for the horses that do pull, that it's a case of managing them rather than actual training. Harry mentioned that with horses that pull starting slowly and building can make it easier to start with and waste less time fighting them.

ETA: have ridden around a few BEs up to 100 and still very much a numpty!
 

Leo Walker

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I couldnt get Bobbie to pull if my life depended on it. Shes just not a puller. She does spook and skitter about so shes not perfect, but pulling just isnt her. Even if she wants to be strong and silly she doesnt pull, she bunches up, ducks behind the contact and bounces. I've just made her sound demonic now! Shes not shes pretty angelic really, but it was something I was thinking about today while we were out driving.
 

be positive

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I do know of two horses produced from youngsters and taken up to top level by a pro, both I believe were competed in a snaffle or certainly not much iron ware, they were sold to a team rider and both became strong, bitted up and at times were barely under control although were very successful, the first rider did not enjoy seeing what they became as it was certainly trained into them in order to have a better chance of getting the time.
I just had a look back at their records and while they went faster, had more success going to the very biggest events they also had the odd 20 pens and the one that lasted longest had a fair few E's and a fall or two along the way, it was not a nice sight xc later in their partnership as the speed seemed to be getting too near being out of control.
 

JennBags

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Interesting @be positive , so a horse can be taught to be a puller in your experience?
My first horse, Red, was a puller, but given the right bit, he was just strong. I like a horse to take me forwards but don't like to have to argue or fight, or feel out of control.
@Leo Walker do you think Bobbie could ever be strong or is it just not in her personality?
 

DabDab

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I think there are certainly some horses that are more prone to it as a go to, but I think there are also riders who are just very used to that way of a horse going so I think over time they inadvertently ride their horses more towards that tendency.

I remember that comment because I thought it was a bit of a weird thing to say. The rider was very quiet and rhythmical and was giving the horse a lovely ride by the look of it, so I'm not sure quite why he felt the need to caveat that. It's not like it's unusual, there are plenty of others who ride very quietly. When was the last time Jung was seen having a battle before a fence at that level.
 

JennBags

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I thought it was a little unnecessary as surely a really good trainer would try to ensure their horse wasn't pulling them, but we do see it happen regularly at top level, so wonder if it's part and parcel of having a top horse sometimes.
 
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be positive

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That example was fairly extreme and although I vaguely knew the first rider I read between the lines on her view of what happened to the horses once they were sold on, some riders certainly seem to prefer a horse taking them very strongly into the fences but waste time setting up if they get too onward bound.
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I do think that some riders ride with a more quiet feel than others and that a strong horse will often settle if given a chance, we had a pointer come here that was know to run away on the gallops ending up with a ripped mouth and ever stronger bits, his rider here could get him to chill as long as she sat quietly, we took him for a jockey to give a work out and he decided the horse was lazy so gave it a wake up at which point it took off and he went several times round unable to stop, the horse ended up sore in his mouth and with rubs on both shoulders from being pulled back so had to miss his next race and have a few quiet days to recover, that one never got put on again! He retired from racing and became a sensible, if sharp RC allrounder doing everything in a snaffle.
 

ycbm

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Just catching up on Luhmuhlen, and Harry Meade was talking about how easy a chestnut made it look going through the tricky water, and he said "of course it's not a puller". Led me to think about whether a horse is just a puller, or if this is trained into them; or if it can be trained out of them. I'm guessing not, as the riders at this level might know a little but about what they're doing 😉 but thought it might make an interesting topic.

Please feel free to add your experiences and knowledge. I'm too much of a numpty to have much to say on the subject


I had a horse I broke as a six year old, so I've no-one to blame but myself if he was made that way not born that way. He was hunted for five seasons, starting six months after breaking, and he pulled like a train out hunting. I rode him in a mikmar or a Liverpool four slot cherry roller on the last hook. I could only just about hold him, he was a strapping 17hand IDx

I broke lots of others too, including the one in my avatar, and hunted others which had been broken before I bought them, and none of them did much more than nicely take me to the fence. One jumped in a Pelham, but no curb chain xc, only show jumping. So I think he was a 'born puller', and there are plenty of horses that pull out hunting.

Having said that, if you insist on throwing yourself over six foot hedges, it can be very reassuring to do it on a clever horse who is towing you in without a doubt in his head.

As regards training it out of them, I think it's difficult if they are a 'born puller', but I did train my puller at home saying 'down' out loud at every down transition, and it did work, to an extent, to steady him out hunting.

I certainly wouldn't want to jump fixed fences on a big puller!


.
 

DabDab

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I thought it was a little unnecessary as surely a really good trainer would try to ensure their horse wasn't pulling them, but we do see it happen regularly as top level, so wonder if it's part and parcel of having a top horse sometimes.
Yeah I should think there's definitely an element of a horse capable of and fit for that level of competition is more likely to be, um, enthusiastic in style. But I think it's also one of those things that capable riders can work around fairly effectively so it doesn't ever really become a training priority, and there is probably a worry that over focussing on it would risk shutting the horse down.
 

J&S

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I feel that some horses seem to naturally know where they are going and what they are expected to do, these can be the pullers, if given the chance. On the other hand, some seem to wait for orders, or are not so confident, and there fore need to be told what to do. They can still be right up to the mark and make very successful competition horses.
 

ihatework

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I think with most things horse related there is usually a ratio of nurture v nature.

Some will naturally be more inclined to do it than others and it is more than possible to exacerbate it or moderate it in most horses by the riding/training.

Another thing to consider is how they gallop /pull - if they do it with their hind end engaged, shoulder up and can be trusted to sort themselves out at a fence without jumping you into trouble then it’s less of an issue. And indeed, plenty of riders will prefer that kind of feel than an ultra polite horse when going Xc.

Those that get their head down, load their shoulders and spent more time fighting than concentrating are the dangerous ones.
 

foxy1

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From my experience of working with racehorses I do think that some horses are naturally more inclined to pull than others, some are light in the mouth and some pull like trains. All have similar training albeit not in the same way as eventers of course.
 

Red-1

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All my event horses bar one ended up in a snaffle, no flash noseband or martingale, for all phases. To me, this means that, generally, I can train them to be polite to a fence.

The one that did not was a puller. If you changed bit it would work for an event or two, then it did not. We had a big bit box!

Having said that, she was also the one I did the biggest events on as she stayed engaged. I only had to steer and keep her regulated. I did not have to make decisions regarding striding etc, just keep her on the floor as long as possible. She was not the most relaxing to ride, but no height scared us as she was immense in power.

I would not buy her now though. It was thrilling at time but nowadays I suspect I would find it petrifying!
 

TWMD

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Really interesting. My horse can be a nightmare cross country early in the season or if he hasn't done it in a while. He is strong and can tow me into the base of fences, making me work really hard to keep his front end off the fence. He will pull my arms out in a snaffle but hates being bitted up, he will just throw his head around so I keep his snaffle but add a kineton noseband for when he's like this.

After a couple of events though he chills right out and is a perfect gentleman, I can steady him just by sitting my shoulders up and can go back to his usual noseband.

He definitely has split personality...but then again he is a gemini! :p
 

Leo Walker

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@Leo Walker do you think Bobbie could ever be strong or is it just not in her personality?

I've been thinking about this and no, not strong, but definitely stupid! She lost her head a little bit out competing on bank holiday Monday and decided the best way to deal with worry was to try and launch her self round the obstacles at a gallop. In the interests of keeping everyone alive she was halted and made to walk round them instead until she took a breath and calmed down. At times she felt like there was going to be an incident, but she was never strong. She went behind the contact and bunched up and piaffed and passaged. There were threats to spin and some bouncing, but she was always soft in the hand. Too soft really.

I think If I had let her go and chased her on, and just hauled her round, and if I did that enough times then I could probably have taught her to take a hold, but I'd have had to really work at it. Shes just not strong at all. Interestingly for a big lump of a cob shes not thuggy on the ground either. Shes just quite a soft, delicate little flower type pony in general!
 

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Interesting. I’d def agree about the distinction between those who are still up and engaged and tow you in v on the forehand tanking in but not really looking where they are going. I know which one I’d rather ride!

Also agree re some inate horseonality going on.

In terms of riders impacting their horses way of going, I’ve noticed that with someone I know, her horses all go super fast, head up in the air, back hollow, hind end out, into a fence. With her first one I thought it was the horse, now I’ve seen all 3 do the same (different breeds/confo too) so I now realise she is riding them that way. Sadly 2 of them have developed kissing spine and, seeing how they jump a course, it’s not that surprising.
 

sportsmansB

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The grey mare in my sig was a puller
Eventually we got it reasonably well contained and safe, but it was her nature. A bit like Red-1 says above though, it was workable as she was exceptionally scopey and knew how to look after herself, so I basically had to get her in the correct direction and go with it. We regularly took strides out of combinations and did have a bit of a battle if it was a 1 strider or 2 strider where we couldn't do that and I had to get her back. Wasn't scary at all though, because she was smart and such a jumper.
Didn't Tim Price get run away with this year? Can't remember if it was Wesko or another one - Badminton maybe?

Current horse is forward enough but terribly polite, I had to ask Trainer if he thought he was all right after the first time I took him XC as I had forgotten what it was like NOT to be towed around..
 

maya2008

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The grey mare in my sig was a puller
Eventually we got it reasonably well contained and safe, but it was her nature. A bit like Red-1 says above though, it was workable as she was exceptionally scopey and knew how to look after herself, so I basically had to get her in the correct direction and go with it. We regularly took strides out of combinations and did have a bit of a battle if it was a 1 strider or 2 strider where we couldn't do that and I had to get her back. Wasn't scary at all though, because she was smart and such a jumper.

I've got one like that! She can take off MILES out and has sufficient scope to be fine no matter what. I have learnt to be ready for whenever she decides to go! She's a born jumper - loose schooling when she was young she'd find a lone filler in the middle of the school and jump it for fun, she'd also fence hop out in the field (it was pot luck where we'd find her!). I have worked so hard on getting her to canter in to her fences nicely, but mostly my best bet has been to make them big enough she needs to back off a little! She does make me like jumping though...
 

redapple

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Having started jumping on a horse that had a pull on them I actually find that it knocks my confidence a bit when riding something that doesn't. There's a very reassuring feeling of turning a corner, seeing the fence and feeling that pull knowing you're going over it whether you like it or not!

Occasionally current mare takes it too far and we're tanking full belt at something, with her plowing forehand into the ground but I still actually feel happier dealing with that than when riding something that doesn't take a pull. First horse would gain in speed and pull as the course went on but current is more of a lock and pull type. Like above though she's highly likely to take a stride out and you just have to go with it. I've had people fight her on it and get a terrible ride out of her, she's a much better jumper left to get on with it!
 

Bernster

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I’d agree redapple. Current horse is steady into a fence which is probably more correct but I do miss that feeling I had with my mare, that she would jump anything I pointed her at (and occasionally stuff I didn’t mean to point her at) and pull me towards a fence!
 

LEC

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I think a lot of riders make horses strong especially at too young an age, particularly amateurs. They are not trained well enough and the balance is not taken into account enough. Pros put hours and hours into making horses rideable. I have watched Chris Burton XC schooling and everything has to be perfect. The horse cannot pull, it has to be balanced, has to stay on the line and turn as required. This type of training makes a massive difference in how horses go.

I then find as some horses go up the levels and get more experienced in their job sometimes they will get stronger as bold, brave. What modern xc courses require is a horse who doesnt pull because it makes the questions easier. You have 3 strides to maybe pick up a skinny so a shake of a head on a strong horse or running slightly through the bridle can lead to a run out. Even the worlds best can have issues as Tim Price has with Bango. Sometimes everything can be fine and then they come out on that day wild.
 
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