My 2 pennies worth

[springfallstud]

I been reading alot of the debates on here and some are better than a good movie

but alot of views seem to be anti warmblood breeders and/or breeders not catering for the "avarage" UK rider, this is where i disagree, firstly there is still a huge amount of Irish horses coming over for these riders and i cant see that changing either in the near future, there is still a huge amount of people breeding "Dolly" with "Wally" again catering for these riders (only have to look in horse deals/horsemart to see this!!)

I feel warmblood breeders have now raised the game and we are producing horses that are as good as those found on the continent, some are better. They choose carefully what sells aboard and what will stay put (for now) Yes warmblood breeders want to breed that one foal which will go on to top level sport but i dont think the foals bred that dont have that X factor are as worthless as suggested on here recently, infact someone will have got themselves a nicely bred good moving horse to go and have some fun on!

I also disagree that all warmbloods are too much for most people, (of course some but that goes for the same in every breed right??!!) alot of warmbloods are quite lazy until the rider finds the right buttons and will happily plod along. Alot of the "problem" horses my husband has corrected has been a simple case of bad saddle/ sore back/wrong bit etc basic stuff that should have been "listened" too a long time ago before the horse starts shouting, therefore shouldnt people be properly educated before being allowed to own a horse?? But thats a whole different subject!!

Anyway this post probably isnt making much sense but i wanted to spend my 2 pennies and say i think there is plently of room for breeders of many types of horses in the UK whether they are for fun, show, eventing, dressage, jumping, hunting or the Olympics

 

[magic104]

I dont think it has anything to do with WB's. It has had to do with the UK cant breed horses as good as Europe. We may lag behind & we may need to raise our standards, but are we really that bad?? I have never said WB's cant be ridden by the ave rider, though I do think some of them have movement that the ave rider would struggle to go with. We all know that you can get a hot NF as well a NF that is a plod, no matter what breed it is because they wont have been handled or produced in the same way, & even if they were they are still individuals.

I really do support the grading culture, but even that has been dissed, we are not as good as the rest of Europe, perhaps that is right. I dont want to keep reading about how bad we are, without some construtive building blocks. Dont tell us there are only a dozen decent breeders, then keep them to yourself, share so we can compare. I have watched numpties importing cr*p since the 80's just because it is a WB bred across the sea it has to be better then anything produced here. I had always taken the stance that we could do better, & indeed we can, but I dont need to keep being told how rubbish the ISH is compared to the WB. How Europe have found the formula we just need to carry on from there. They were more astute then us that's for sure, using UK bred TB's to improve the WB. Now though that seems to be a receipe for disaster if you carry on using the TB. Maybe I have exaggerated, but we should be working together not trying to score points off one another. Share by all means but dont belittle people & their views. There are people on here that manage to put their thoughts over in a constructive manner. I dont mind a spade being called a spade, but even I am finding this all very tiresome.

 

[Touchwood]

Warmbloods are a continental breed/type whatever you want to call it....does it not follow that those on the continent may have had a bit of a head start on their breeding programs? I'd like to see a European country (and for these purposes I am excluding the UK!) breed racehorses of the calibre we have bred here in the UK. The English thoroughbred is one of the most talented, versatile breeds in the world...I don't think many studbooks can lay claim to that.

There are plenty of people (I count myself in this) who are making an enormous effort with their breeding programs and who want to make a big difference to british breeding in the warmblood sense. There are also a lot of people breeding the british breeds, the irish breeds etc etc etc who pay attention to breeds standards, performance, conformation, temperament - everyone's contribution is equally as valuable. The horse is a wonderful and diverse creature...wouldn't it be boring if we all had to ride one type of horse.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a European country (and for these purposes I am excluding the UK!) breed racehorses of the calibre we have bred here in the UK. The English thoroughbred is one of the most talented, versatile breeds in the world...I don't think many studbooks can lay claim to that.


[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, the French do... and the Italians have done.... and the Irish....

But I know what you mean. We forget that we've been there & done it already!

 

[toffeesmarty]

wouldn't it be boring if we all had to ride one type of horse.


and don't forget our wonderful native ponies either.

 

[joeathh]

I think the debates have heated up for only one reason. There have been many threads suggesting that if you are not using the best well connected and graded broodmares with one of the top 100 stallions then you are dragging down British Breeding.

And human nature, those that breed 'Dolly' with 'Wally' are going to fight back, they feel they also have a place in the british breeding market, which they do and they are actively posting the benefits of there breeds.

At the end of the day, there is room for everyone, buisness would be pretty poor if you all produced the same animals. Therefore if the breeding decision made and discussed by somebody isn't quite to someone else's choice - why can't we all support it and support them - doesn't mean we are being forced to make the same choices as them - and this works both ways, the Dolly/Wally breeders need equally to support the non Dolly/Wally breeders and vice versa.

I have never bred a foal but I love to look on here at all the breeding choices, there are some really interesting points, I learn so much. Hopefully if people can listen and support
(they don't necessarily have to accept others choices) the backbiting and personal insults may stop. Sorry my two penneth!

 

[cruiseline]

I agree with you Springfallstud and your popcorn eating, beer drinking little yellow person really made me laugh

I have two point that I would like to give my pennies worth on

Firstly

A lot of the threads have deteriorated because IMO there are certain people on here who think that if you are going to breed it is only worth doing it if you are aiming to breed for the Olympics and they feel that UK breeders will never get one of their horses there.

And Secondly

They also think that breeding for the thousands and thousands of riders that just want to safely hack around the lanes and bridle paths or enjoy a local newcomer/foxhunter class, or a novice/elementary dressage competition or a novice event are not worth wasting your time, effort and money over.

I wonder if they think that this sort of rider should be mounted on an Olympic hopeful from main land Europe, as not all riders in the world have asperations of jumping, dressage or eventing at the Olympics you know. Or should we just ban them from riding, because they are not 'World Class'.

I would love to see the statistics of just how many foals are born in Europe that don't make it to the Olympics or even international competitions or top national level. UK is a drop in the ocean in comparison to the joint breeding efforts of Germany, Holland, Belgium, France etc. How many foals they get on the ground each year is astonishing!!!!! and I can assure you that on my trips to Europe I have seen plenty of 'dogs' that I wouldn't have taken home even if you paid me.

I find it quite strange that a person can say British Breeding is not up-to-standard with the Europeans, that the quality of stock is inferior. I presented 7 youngsters and a broodmare at the recent BEF Futurity Finals, all of them were by European based stallions, out of imported European bred mares. How can you say that these horses are not of the standard of the ones bred in Europe, they are the same bloodlines.

Do you think it has something to do with the soil/grass in UK that makes them lose their abilities, as the same lines are being duplicated over in Europe, but when they are bred there, they become special horses

The word 'World Class' can and is regularly used to describe the best of hundreds of different breeds in the world, so please when a breeder says their Welsh Cobs are 'World Class' or their Lusitano's are 'World Class' or their ID's are 'World Class" who are we to judge, unless we are their breed evaluators.

The word 'World Class' is not owned solely by the Olympic horse breeders of the continent.

My black stallion is IMO 'World Class' because he has a temperament to die for and does everything that I ask of him, so in my opinion, he is 'World Class' and I chose to use that word when I describe him.

Well I have rambled on enough, but I hope I managed to get my points over.

 

[Anastasia]

Britain (by this I include Ireland) breed practically the best racing horses in the world. Not to mention some of the best eventers!

Also mainland Europe come across to the UK to by the best native breeds (practically all the top ponies in Europe decend from UK stock). Do you know that the Welsh Studbook is the second biggest Studbook in Holland after the KWPN!

So Britain are the masters in - TBs, eventers, native breeds, Irish horses. Not to mention we have some of the best showing stock in the world, that are then purchased abroad. And our Hunter market has now boomed over in the States, where they are desperate for the good old TB x Irish etc.....not necessarily having to be warmbloods!!

So if we are talking sport horses, all that Britain have left to dominate after the above is the dressage and showjumping fields...and I am sure that will come very soon..

Coupled with the above we also have the best beef herds and sheep flocks in the world!

Hope I have made my point!

 

[toffeesmarty]

Firstly thanks everyone. I started to read the forum because of the knowledge and sould common sense being written by the regulars in the run up to achieving my life time ambition of breeding a foal.
Having bred her, I am certainly am not experienced!

I didn't breed her to change the world or to reach the Olympics, but I did breed her specifically for my daughter. So, in the same way as studs do I spent two years researching who, what and why. I wanted the finished result - my foal, to be the best and the closest to being fit for purpose that I could.
Currently we show at county level, our aim is to get to HOYS and in the next few years we might. That is the extent of our ambition as it is now. So no, we're not aiming for the Olympics or even 3* eventing just now!
Whether we breed one horse or hundreds we all have personal goals we are aiming for and the excitement 11 months later of seeing this become a reality is something we all treasure.

Lots has been debated here about the state or otherwise of 'British Breeding'.
This term cannot exclude our lovely natives, show horses, hunters and riding horses. There are studs across the UK, breeding for these markets who I believe would be unhappy not to be included when we are debating the British industry.
And, yes of course there is a need for the 'best' horses for the international and competition market.

However, I've been saddened by the snobbery being directed to some of the forum members here recently. Whist it has been entertaining to read, the comments have been hurtful and go against what we surely all aspire to? Which is for UK (and international) horse and pony owners, professional or amateur to be able to choose from a stock of British born healthy horses and ponies to buy and enjoy, for whatever level or ambition they are aiming to achieve at.
There is a place for every breeder, whatever type they are breeding to supply and it should always be so.

In short - for my two pennies, this forum should value everyone.

 

[htobago]

If I may add my tuppence-worth, or rather just try to clarify things for myself....

I'm wondering if maybe we are ALL being a bit 'parochial', letting a sort of misplaced patriotism get in the way of the real objective, which is, surely, to breed the best possible horses for a variety of purposes, using whatever breeds/bloodlines are best suited to those purposes, regardless of their national origin?

So - I think we are all agreed that the best possible breed to breed 'world class'/Olympic eventers is surely the TBxID (or some variation on that mix - let's not forget Tamarillo's large dollop of Arab blood

). And the best possible breeds for 'world class'/Olympic dressage and sj are the Continental warmbloods - I don't think anyone here really has any problem accepting that, do we?

What we seem to be arguing about is not which breeds are best for 'world class' Olympic disciplines, but which are best for a different purpose, namely: breeding nice sensible all-rounders for the 'ordinary' riders who make up at least 95% of the market. And in this case it would seem that we have a much wider choice of breeds and bloodlines - we can choose to use the Continental WBs, or we can choose TBxID, or we can use some other breed or mix of breeds.

Can we not just agree that for breeding good all-rounders it really is a matter of taste, and that no one breed (or mix of breeds) is necessarily superior to any other?

 

[cazza]

I just wanted to say that it has been interesting watching how the threads are going on the breeding forum. We have a stallion standing at stud and he's not a warmblood, he's not an Olympic prospect and he has been specifically bred for what he will produce. This has been from years of breeding to produce the right stallion to throw the right type of stock. Which the majority of the time he does. There is of course as in all breeding the exception to the rule.

We breed polo ponies so from the recent posts on here it seems that we too are not breeding performance animals as we are not producing something for Olympic status. Unfortunately Polo is not in the olympics. But the stock that has been produced with these bloodlines are playing High Goal Polo in this country and in NZ and Australia.

I think we should all respect that all the breeders on here breed for different purposes to produce horses and ponies for different jobs. This should not be knocked as (as has been said earlier) wouldn't it be boring if all our horses were identical.

 

[Bossanova]

I get annoyed because the breeders on here seem to only ever consider showjumpers and dressage horses as proper horses.

Britain is actually darned good at breeding and producing eventers and trust me, it takes just as much horse to jump a 4* track as it does to jump a nations cup/ do well in a grand prix test!!

 

[lacampbell]

Just adding my 2 pennies... ( I don't post often, mainly lurk...)

Anyway, most of the breeders on this forum appear to do a lot of reasearch into whatever kind of horse and or pony that they are breeding...

Shouldn't we all remember that whatever equine we are breeding (sporthorse/warmblood, purebred or native), for whatever purpose ( Olympic/ pony club/ eventing/ dressage/ showing/ pleasure) that a sucessfull breeding program is one which the resulting foal is as good as/if not better quality than the mare it is out of...?

I don't want to start a rampage of the stallion influence here... just merely a statement that if we as breeders choose what we think is a good stallion match for the mare at whatever level we a breeding for and that offspring is good quality, surely this can be documented that it was a good combination and therefore a success in that particular breeding program. We all know that if the foal doesn't come up to scratch in temp/conformation then wouldn't do that same cross again..

This country is getting better at producing very good foals. there are some very nice foals on this forum and I am sure that we have all seen other very classy foals not featured on this particular forum...

We can breed the most fantastic foals, super nature/conformation/ movement etc with "World Class Bloodlines"- but that is only the start......... most of us as breederes (large stud or small private breeder) sell stock as weanlings...

A foal with worldclass bloodines will only make to the top as a world class competition horse with the best training and opportunities and I think that I can stick my neck on the line here and say that this is were we (UK) as a country are still very much lacking behind compared to out European counterparts. However I would like to add in that with the programs now being run by BSJA, BD and other organisations it is a situation which is being addressed, but still a bit of a climb to get there.

Where education and support is needed for breeders and buyers is that there are UK bred foals every bit as quality as mainland europe foals - IF the buyers will look to the UK, - it is easier I have to say for them to go online and look at the foal auctions abroad, bid online without them trailing around the UK to look. ( I had had people very interested in the past who have told me that it was too far to come and look at my foal, easier to get one shipped from Holland)

Also wish to add that this country does produce "World Class" natives....just do a search and see how many Riding Ponies / Welsh etc and clydesdales that have been exporting for breeding puproses to Holland / Australia/ Canada.

Credit where credit is due

 

[KarynK]

I don't think anyone has knocked Warmblood / Sport Horse breeders at all they are just not the type of horse that suits everyone. Believe me I would love to still be capable of riding a horse like that but a disability has left me unable to do a highly bred performance horse justice. Much as I would like it to be otherwise believe me!

What this has done for me is open my eyes to the fact that for those of us realistic enough not to aspire to breed an Olympic or National Champion, there is a huge potential market out there for the average rider without the talent or time to do such a horse justice.

Whilst you quote "Dolly and Wally" there are average riders that want a little more than that but perhaps not the extreme athleticism expected of a potential top class sport horse and why let the Irish breeders have a monopoly on exploiting this domestic market? The fact that Irish horses are coming over in droves indicates there is a large demand that British Breeders are not catering for!

Regarding sport horse breeding, I feel a lot of the “problem” in the UK is our affinity with the horse, in the European markets breeders are much more hard hearted and do not wish to see a substandard animal from their stock ever again; they certainly will not have it on the studbook! So it usually gets sold in anonymity and eaten.

Where as in the UK the horses that are not going to reach stardom are sold on to the ordinary riders many of whom are swayed by fashion, avid top level horse sport fans often fancy themselves on nothing less than a horse bred to do what their idols are doing. The problem is it is the horse that ends up suffering and it will most of the time not get the care and attention of its more capable brethren. Sport horses of any type are not bred for their hardiness and ending up rouging it does not always suit them unlike some other breeds. These types of riders find it difficult to accept that another breed or type would suit their routine and abilities much better. What better to do with an unused mare but breed another victim from her!!!!

The BEF are doing an admirable job at producing a standard of comparison and a guide for buyers and breeders alike but by their own admission are principally driven by their search for a British Star and this is excellent news. However what would be nice to see some when soon is an “All-rounder” section for the production of quality ponies and smaller horses for riding club and pony activities? With a view to producing a sound sensible horse bred to be able to do a range of activities at a lower level, from their point of view this sort of animal would train the riders of the future.

There are a lot of people out there like me, with disabilities, high numbers of older riders in an aging population or those with dependants to care for who need a steady enjoyable riding horse that is not too big is hardier and has a steadier disposition and there are not a huge amount of breeders deliberately breeding this type of horse for this substantial less ambitious market. At the moment it is served largely by horses that do not make the grade elsewhere.

 

[The Voice]

Without reading all the posts, I would like to make a couple of points.

Firstly, who is saying we cannot breed horses as good as other countries?That's not what I have been told by a horse inspector from europe with over 30 years experience. It is mostly people who jump on the band wagon (mostly old school cronnies trying to protect their empires) and is just another case of the UK blame culture and putting ourselves down. I don't think we can produce horses, the industry is mostly in a mess and we keep on wallpapering over the cracks.

Yes we can produce event horses as it is a major sport here along with Hunting, Dressage, Showjumping, racing and pastime riding, but abroad they concentrate on two things, Dressage and Showjumping as they are their major sports, so their horses will be more prominent in these more high profile areas. Our equine pastimes are far more diverse than they are abroad.

Abroad, horses are an industry, in the UK they are pets.

 

[lacampbell]

My post was was written in the thread of being a positive one for UK breeders in saying that we are breeding very good horses/ponies here.
My comment regarding comparison to other countries is a general one with reference to remarks from other recent threads. I agree with you, and am warmed that you too have been informed by a horse inspector that our youngstock here in the UK is good....
We have to be honest with our breeding programs and there are a lot which are working. I just wanted to contribute something positive, since recently there has been a lot of sniping - maybe I'll just go back to lurking...

 

[Maggie2]

elsie2 I think you have raised some very valid pooints. It is a fact that the horse is only as good as the hands it finds itself in, and with a weaner those hands are crucial to the end result.

 

[The Voice]

Don't take it personal

My comment about 'who say's we cannot ...' was an open question as this is a remark that has been banded around for years and to be honest the next person who say's it needs shooting or asked why's that then? as they will come up with some stupid remark or excuse. As someone is saying only a very small amount of horses are going to be in the top percentage of the top quality just like a small percentage of companies control the economy of the country, the rest make up the numbers.

 

[Tharg]

[ QUOTE ]
Britain (by this I include Ireland)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem, you cannot lump two separate countries under the title of one of the countries. Typical thickoid attitude...

(Republic of Ireland/Irish Free State)

 

[springfallstud]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a fact that the horse is only as good as the hands it finds itself in, and with a weaner those hands are crucial to the end result.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutly agree 100% i think many a good horse has gone to the wayside due to its rider and i think more British bred horses would fly the flag in Dressage (dont speak of other horse sports as mainly involved with D) if only they were given the correct chance in the right hands. The way the German horses went at the BD young horse champs gala was amazing (many will say far too much for a young horse but like the Germans said if the horse offers it then take it!!!) they certianally showed up our 6 years olds therfore if horses were better produced in the UK therefore winning more in international competiton wouldnt the market for our foals improve even the lesser ones would sell with ease as they were "UK" bred same as the lesser "German" ones do and often for big prices, so maybe now we are breeding better Dressage horses the missing chink is in the training.......

my OH went to see 3 Dressage bred stallions this week all were backed and going under saddle and needed help for grading, not one went forward, not one showed of its paces as to why it was still a stallion and the owner bless was gob smacked when he got these horses moving..in the right hands they have the ability to go far but whether this will released one will have to wait and see where their future training takes them.....

 

[lacampbell]

Absolutely agree Maggie2 and Springfall.....you only have to look at the number of 3/4/5 yo being imported from Holland/Belguim/Germany for both dressage and jumping and in our area especially lots of riding club horses - the main reason? They are all schooled to a high standard meaning less work and effort and time on the basics before the usually amateur rider can go out and compete (at whatever level they do).
I feel (quite strongly) that if we had the same level of training (over a much broader spectrum than we do) then that import market would not be quite as large as it is....

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
you only have to look at the number of 3/4/5 yo being imported from Holland/Belguim/Germany for both dressage and jumping and in our area especially lots of riding club horses - the main reason? They are all schooled to a high standard meaning less work and effort and time on the basics before the usually amateur rider can go out and compete (at whatever level they do).


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm - they may APPEAR to be well schooled - but if the 3 I've had through here in the last 12 months are anything to go by that schooling is often rushed and not as good as it should be. A strong professional can get a 4 year old going in an advanced outline, doing basic lateral work and jumping a 3'6" course in less than 3 months.

Problem is - it doesn't usually last if the horse goes to even a competent RC/PC rider. The horse isn't driven forward enough, the riders can be a bit worried by the BIG movement and hold onto them a bit too much, trouble starts! And because the basics haven't been established sufficiently, that might mean napping, rearing, bucking - or all of these.

I'm not saying all imported horses have these problems - I obviously only see the ones who do and whose owners seek help - but it is certainly true of some. Each of these 3 horses had to be taken RIGHT back to basics - even things like standing to be mounted! I believe a lot of studs/yards cherry-pick the best for PROPER schooling for competition at home - and the rest are churned out for sale as quickly as possible. Soundness problems appear to be rife too - as youngsters are too often rushed, both in growth and in work.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]

Where as in the UK the horses that are not going to reach stardom are sold on to the ordinary riders many of whom are swayed by fashion, avid top level horse sport fans often fancy themselves on nothing less than a horse bred to do what their idols are doing. The problem is it is the horse that ends up suffering and it will most of the time not get the care and attention of its more capable brethren. Sport horses of any type are not bred for their hardiness and ending up rouging it does not always suit them unlike some other breeds. These types of riders find it difficult to accept that another breed or type would suit their routine and abilities much better. What better to do with an unused mare but breed another victim from her!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh - as my 19yr old Tb, 3yo Tb x Bavarian and 4yo Tb x Shire 'rough it' 24/7. So far they are all clinging to life, just.
So tell me, what breeds should I have?
S

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]
This made me laugh - as my 19yr old Tb, 3yo Tb x Bavarian and 4yo Tb x Shire 'rough it' 24/7. So far they are all clinging to life, just.
So tell me, what breeds should I have?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not at all surprised that your shire x is quite happy living outside or indeed the other horse, as is my pure TB but believe me there is one hell of a difference from sensibly keeping horses in a more natural manner to the cases of neglect I have seen.

I am sorry but I have experience of these matters and the majority of serious cases of neglect I have seen for many years tend to be blood horses that people have lost interest in, which are left at dense stocking rates on unsuitable soils, in cheap rental fields with horrendous fencing, with little feed through the winter and inadequate rugs or none at all. Seeing this sort of suffering is not pleasant and a lot of excuses seem to be that they couldn’t handle the horse and couldn’t bear to part with it! Far cry from living a horse outside well rugged and fed isn't it?

I have not suggested any specific breed I would not presume to do so but am merely pointing out there is a market out there for other types of horse bred for a purpose other than top level competition in any sphere and these British breeders need support and encouragement too.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This made me laugh - as my 19yr old Tb, 3yo Tb x Bavarian and 4yo Tb x Shire 'rough it' 24/7. So far they are all clinging to life, just.
So tell me, what breeds should I have?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not at all surprised that your shire x is quite happy living outside or indeed the other horse, as is my pure TB but believe me there is one hell of a difference from sensibly keeping horses in a more natural manner to the cases of neglect I have seen.

I am sorry but I have experience of these matters and the majority of serious cases of neglect I have seen for many years tend to be blood horses that people have lost interest in, which are left at dense stocking rates on unsuitable soils, in cheap rental fields with horrendous fencing, with little feed through the winter and inadequate rugs or none at all. Seeing this sort of suffering is not pleasant and a lot of excuses seem to be that they couldn’t handle the horse and couldn’t bear to part with it! Far cry from living a horse outside well rugged and fed isn't it?

I have not suggested any specific breed I would not presume to do so but am merely pointing out there is a market out there for other types of horse bred for a purpose other than top level competition in any sphere and these British breeders need support and encouragement too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, that makes more sense.

I keep my horses out, but it is nearly as much work as stabling them. Obviously I also have to give them feed and forage in the field, as well as ensuring I have enough rugs so they are always dry and warm.
There aren't any native breeds to suit me, unfortunately; at 5'10" I am too tall to comfortably ride even the larger breeds like Highlands/Welsh D's as I am unfortunately quite long in the leg.
S

 

[The Voice]

What I would say is that a well bred horse with good bloodlines does seem to have more 'natural' ability (ie will strike off on the the right leg and is more balanced etc), which i believe is now being passed on through the genes and they do not take as long to teach therefore saving months in training. I have discussed this with a number of older producers, who think that this may be the case as they have seen a difference over the years. I think we have some very good producers and riders, young and old, but the structure and economics of producing horses to potential in the UK quite often makes it untenable to do.

It is not just the breeding of the horses as I truly believe we breed in the uk some very good horses that can compete with the best in the world, even with no incentives to do it. With showjumping and with regards to producing the horses, the sport sucks. The quality of riding by many is awful (how many show jumpers could do a dressage test like they can abroad), the shows are awful with dummed down classes and poor prize money.

A decision was made a few years ago to cater showjumping so that more people can compete and attract larger entries so that the centres can kind of survive (which I don't have a problem with, although many 'weekend riders' now complain that the 'professionals' win the prizes), but the effect is that there are not the shows that are available to produce the grand prix horses that the top riders require and everyone keeps on bleating about. Has anyone else noticed that when classes were bigger (IE Newcomers 1.25m) we were winning medals. Coincidence, I don't think so, riders and horses had to jump them and learn from them and this was BEFORE we started importing 'better' horses.

At ArenaUK last weekend the 'Grand Prix' was 1.40m. That is not a grand prix but a speed class and abroad that would be a young horse class. Sunday night there were GP horses, including one that I think has competed on a NC jumping 1.30m 'Grand Prix'. They have to do it as there are no other classes and the riders have got to make a living. It becomes a rat race and does not produce horses. Again does anyone notice we seem to win many speed classes abroad then bomb in the GP's.

I think the BSJA should review the classes such as newcomers and foxhunter and perhaps put them up again.

 

[Anastasia]

Tharg am a little confused as to why my "thickoid attitude" has anything to do with this??? I am sorry as I obviously offended you, next time I will put Britain and Ireland, but as far as my "attitude" well am sorry it does not make any play here.

Of course Northern Ireland is part of the UK, only Southern Ireland (Republic of Ireland...to be politically correct

) is its own entity.

But if you are going to start name calling then can I suggest you PM me in future, insted of detracting from a thread!

 

[burtie]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm - they may APPEAR to be well schooled - but if the 3 I've had through here in the last 12 months are anything to go by that schooling is often rushed and not as good as it should be. A strong professional can get a 4 year old going in an advanced outline, doing basic lateral work and jumping a 3'6" course in less than 3 months.

Problem is - it doesn't usually last if the horse goes to even a competent RC/PC rider. The horse isn't driven forward enough, the riders can be a bit worried by the BIG movement and hold onto them a bit too much, trouble starts! And because the basics haven't been established sufficiently, that might mean napping, rearing, bucking - or all of these.

I'm not saying all imported horses have these problems - I obviously only see the ones who do and whose owners seek help - but it is certainly true of some. Each of these 3 horses had to be taken RIGHT back to basics - even things like standing to be mounted! I believe a lot of studs/yards cherry-pick the best for PROPER schooling for competition at home - and the rest are churned out for sale as quickly as possible. Soundness problems appear to be rife too - as youngsters are too often rushed, both in growth and in work.



[/ QUOTE ]

Baa, Baa,

I think this is a VERY important point, so I thought I'd quote it and agree!

 

[britbreeder]

[ QUOTE ]
but if the 3 I've had through here in the last 12 months are anything to go by

[/ QUOTE ] Well janet, I guess three swallows do make a summer in the Midlands. I would suggest that the three that came to you were standard crapper dealer horses who were smashed through their training for some mug punter to lose their money on. Thus, the breeding/type is irrelevant, I wouldn't knock an entire and highly successful (show me the medals) industry in mainland Europe on the back of three scrubs?

[ QUOTE ]
Lumping Ireland and England together.

[/ QUOTE ] I guess that changing geography/sovreignty to back up a point is acceptable here. Ireland is Ireland and they have their own, recently failing, but at one time successful sport horse breeding industry. Even the head of the IHB (Nick Finnerty) admitted to knowing nothing about horses in 2007 (he does admit to being a ministry cattle man though!!!).

 

[springfallstud]

Now i am keeping out of the politics but it did cross my mind that the horses you dealt with were poor examples Janet, we have purchased many from Germany and they have been beautifully schooled and privatly brought (ie not auction horses nor from dealers)