My boy - Navicular - Tildren Update LONG!

[josephinebutter2]

Just an update on my boy really for anyone who may be interested!

Story so far…..
Aug/Sep of last year he was short striding and lazy – vet came out and he was lame on both front feet. Tried new shoes – better but not sound.

Had x-rays/scans/MRI and diagnosed with Navicular – in all it’s forms i.e. bone deterioration from inside, slight roughness on outside where ligament runs over, thickened and swollen medial collateral ligaments and associated soft tissue swelling and fluid – all on both front feet.

Had Tildren and shockwave therapy and had 4 months box/small paddock rest with remedial shoeing and bute.

Started light work in Jan and he went lame again in Feb when we introduced trot work. Decided to turn him away for a bit with remedial shoes.

Latest update…..
Took him off the bute early April and he was ok for a bit, but has started getting ‘footy’ again (he has silicone pads on). Spoke to vet week b4 last and he thinks we have tried everything apart from stem cell treatment or some kind of blood remodelling (which I cannot afford – especially since these has never been tried for Navicular, so it would be a complete stab in the dark). He has gone off the Steroid Injection idea now – possibly due to looking at the amount of scar tissue on his MRI’s.

Put him back on bute and he is still very footy on the hard ground. Some days he seems OK on the soft grass, but others, he looks foot sore even on that. He does seem OK most mornings, after 12/14 hrs in his box, but comes in from the field sore.

I just don’t know what to do for the best for him. Some days he looks sound and others he looks so sore and sad, I think I should just put him out of his misery!

I have started a diary of sound/footsore – happy/sad and it is coming out about 50/50.

I have to make the decision is he happy enough in the field to go to someone as a companion, or would it be kinder to PTS – he’s only just 7! I just wish someone would tell me what to do.

Anyway – if you’ve got this far, thanks for persevering. I think my friends have had enough of me talking about it, so thought I would tell you guys!

x

 

[Scarlett]

have you investigated the barefoot option? i dunno much about it, just that the 2 horses i personally knew with Navic had success in maintaining soundness and slowing the degeneration when barefoot?

 

[josephinebutter2]

Yes I have investigated this and it is not an option - the guy who used to shoe/trim him was trained in this and didn't think it was suitable due to him having very low heels which did not grow down when we tried it.

He does not have shoes on his back feet at the mo and they are ok, but he cannot cope with no shoes on the front.

Thanks

 

[ihatework]

I'm really sorry to hear he's not improving.
You will know deep down when is the right time to make the decision for him, could you try turning him away now for a month and see how he copes in the field?

 

[josephinebutter2]

B&J - we are allowed to turn out 24/7 from this Friday, so I will give him a trial out 24/7 and see how he copes.

If he doesn't do well, I think I have answered my own question! It's just such a difficult decision when they are so young. I always thought I would just know when the time was right - I thought I had made up my mind last Sunday, but then he has had a few good days and has been hooning about in the field again and I think he can't be feeling that bad!

 

[mrussell]

Can I ask you to try one more thing? Can you please try Cytek shoes?

The vets dont like them as they work out a lot cheaper for you than any medication or remedial shoes they can offer - but my fella was lame on all 4 feet (nav in front, reverse-rotated Pedals behind) 4 years ago and he went from 8/10th on a circle to 1/10 on a circle and is now sound 99.9% of the time (OK, I cant canter him on hard ground but I wouldnt anyway...).

I had nothing to lose and I went for it..... the vet wanted him PTS.

They dont work for everyone and there is a lot of old wives tales about them but I shoe every 5 weeks and treat them like normal shoes...

 

[Paint it Lucky]

I second mrussell, I also knew a horse with terrible foot problems and recurrent lameness (it wasn't from navicular but none the less), she was sound with cytek though and could even go back to jumping at a fair height (4ft), so would be worth giving it a go.

 

[josephinebutter2]

Just been on the Cytec website and they look very similar to Natural Balance shoes, which he has on at the moment (with pads) as all the "normal" remedial shoes made him worse.

Can someone tell me what is the difference between these and Natural balance - if there is any?

 

[ihatework]

I'm so glad you said that, I went and looked up the cytek shoes (having heard the name and never seen them) but thought I'd sound silly for saying they didn't look radically different to NB shoes. But I stand to be corrected, are they all not just a variation in four point shoeing?

 

[Paint it Lucky]

I can't say I'm an expert but someone came to talk to us about them once. They are made of a different material that is lighter and designed to be worn for longer, about 10 weeks I think, I know this sounds abit too long but the horse I knew coped fine with it.

'They are also very wide webbed so give a bigger contact point with the ground and protect the sole. The toe is squared, similar to a natural balance and without a toe clip to avoid putting pressure on the front of the hoof. They are meant to mimic the natural shape of a wild horses foot (how it would naturally wear). The toe is allowed to wear down naturally improving blood flow, hoof shape and other hoof related ailments as well as improving gait.

Claim to treat collapsed heals, long toes, thin soles and stunted frog growth.
Cost around £55 a set but only a few (few and far between!) farriers can fit them.'

There you go, copied that from my shoeing notes, hope it helps!

 

[josephinebutter2]

They do sound very similar to NB shoes from your description too!

No way my boy could go 10 weeks between shoes! His toes grow about 10x faster than his heels, so would stop the effects of the squared toe after about 5/6 weeks.

Farrier is coming out next week, so I will have a chat with him about them. Am paying £120 - 150 for fronts and a hind trim at the mo so £55 sounds good!

Hopefully he can have the pads off at least this time - his soles don't seem so collapsed now!

 

[mrussell]

Very accurate ! The latest cytek are virtually full sole and so have an enormous load bearing surface that stimulates the sole to grow thicker, reducing concussion. The results are immediate. The farriers are specilaist trained. The shoe could stay on that long as the hoof wall doesnt take the load so isnt stimulated to grow/flare as a normal rim shod hoof does...but I shoe 5 weekly (the same shoes go back on) ..Natural Balance shoes are a mid way point but worse than useless for my fella and hubbys eventer (the load bearing surface is much smaller so for caudal heel pain issues, they arent really "good" enough. That said - many horses do well in them.

I have been amazed at the difference....and so very grateful for having had them recommened to me in our darkest hour!

 

[Spot1]

Foot balance is crucial in cases of navicular (navicular syndrome, bursitis or any of the related caudal hoof pain problems) The hoof pastern axis must be aligned correctly as a basic requirement to any course of treatment. Candidates for these problems usually have a classic long toe, low heel hoof type. Low heels cause excessive pressure on the navicular area as the horse bears weight (loads) the affected leg. A long toe causes further pressure during break-over. Concussion is not something to be over concerned with in these cases, it is pressure. shoeing that simply shortens the toe is only providing part of solution, hence it only works in some cases. Transferring loading to the sole or frog with shoes or pads again merely gives a reduced loading to the heel this may allow the heel to grow to the necessary height but many will simply not respond fast enough or indeed at all. Barefoot trimming much like praying or tightrope walking will only work if the foot can be rebalanced, usually accompanied with rest. Many horses are diagnosed with navicular when the charge should be "caudal hoof pain" this leads to various "wonder cures" being cited. In your case it would seem that the prognosis is not good, but having said that heel lifts (wedges or graduated shoes) with rolled toes can give considerable relief, provided they are correctly fitted. The final decision on the course of treatment must come down to you, in consultation with your vet and farrier, it is very difficult to know with any certainty the right course of action. I can only wish you the best and put these few points.

 

[mrussell]

You sound like the vet who wrote my fella off.... I often feel people are afraid to give any "wonder cure" the nod just incase they do indeed "cure" what would otherwise continue to be a nice money earner for the vet.......

"In you case it would seem that the prognosis is not good" Thats easy to say without having ever seen the horse...and amazes me when not even the real experts can agree on the cuases of Navicular related lameness.....

 

[ihatework]

A bit harsh there, I actually thought Spotties gave quite a good overall balanced view in the post.
I'm glad the cyteks have worked for you, and I like to think I wouldn't completely discount something until I had tried it for myself. Thankfully for me conventional remedial shoeing seems to be helping my lad lots, however thats not to say in the future I would dismiss cytek if needs be!

 

[mrussell]

Thats very good for you B&J. Im glad your shoeing is working, as is mine...and all the "praying" that Spottie feels barefooters do is obviosuly very successful too....

I had years of being told by "experts" that my fella was a write off when he wasnt. I dont think its for anyone one here to advise on a prognosis or write off anyones idea of a treatment.

Im sure Spottie can live with my opinion otherwise she wouldnt be ona public forum.............as for balanced - maybe - but more balanced in favour of traditional solutions which simply do not always work.

 

[charlie76]

Hi, my horse was 9 when I had him PTS with navicular. I was the same of you- tried anything and everything including barefoot( this made him worse by the way).
I then , like you, got to the point where I could no longer see him like that so I made the difficult decision to call it a day. Althought it was a very hard thing to do I never regretted it- I knew in my heart I had done a smuch as I could do.PM me if you want to talk more.

 

[josephinebutter2]

Thanks Charlie - and all the other responses.

Please don't think I am just writing my horse off coz I don't want to try new things - my own vets are very open minded about trying new things, but with my boy we do know exactly what is wrong with him, therefore it is much easier for them to know what will work and what will not. They have in fact developed a revolutionary new shoeing technique for laminitics which is proving very successful in assisting the reversing pedal bone rotation. They demonstrated it at the last BEVA Conference I think - so they are always open to trialing new theories.

I agree that the term Navicular is banded about alot when vets are unsure of the exact problem, but with MRI we have hard evidence of the exact problems and therefore have been able to tailor all shoeing and other treatments to his specific problems - even to the extent of x-rays after remedial shoes to ensure they are in perfect balance for his confirmation - incidently he is sounder with slightly lower heels that the x-rays would suggest, so we have listened to my horse and adjusted the shoeing accordingly.

Charlie - I would be very interested to hear your story. Will PM you.

Thanks again for your support guys!

 

[mrussell]

Best of luck Jo ! Its not an easy path.... but its not all doom and gloom.

 

[Doublethyme]

Oh dear Jo, so sorry to hear the news isn't good - I think I remember you posting a while ago about your boy's problems?

It seems with these problems that what works for one, doesn't work for another and I really feel for you owners having to deal with these cases. Having supported a close friend through the ups and downs, I know how heart breaking it is. Her boy got to the end of the line (injections/top remedial shoeing/rest etc etc etc), taking the shoes off and giving him a whole 12 months off appear to have helped enormously and he is now being tentatively being long reined to bring back into low level work - although my friend is now happier in that he is very comfortable (no pain killers) in the field, so can continue to be retired for a while if necessary. He was a case where everyone said "don't take the shoes off, he can't/won't cope" - he has extensive bony changes to his navicular bone and coffin joints, but he was so uncomfortable in the £200 remedial shoeing system he was in that my friend took his shoes off during a bout of box rest for something else. I firmly believe that this box rest saved his life, as I think he would have been sore to start with without the shoes, but because he was confined to barracks for a tendon issue anyway, he didn't have to walk about, so no one felt the need to put the shoes back on straight away (which I believe would have led to him being PTS). By the time the box rest was over, he was pretty OK on his feet - still a bit off on rough ground, but only blip he has had when he had shoes back on for 6 weeks, was when the farrier made a slightly bad judgement and took too much foot off in one trim and he came up really really sore - all the doubters jumped on it and on went the shoes, but luckily my friend listened and after 6 weeks with shoes to allow his feet to grow back, the shoes came back off and he has been doing well every since without them. I do know that my EP says many navicular horses have to be extensively booted up with pads for a while straight out shoes, as many will be very sore - just like a horse is very lame with a tendon injury etc - its the same principle, the foot has to have a chance to try to heal itself. However, I also understand that his can be incredibly difficult to stand by and watch. I do find it weird though how people don't get stressy with owners who have horses hobbling with tendon injuries (as long as they are being treated correctly under a vet), but the minute a horse with severe foot problems takes a lame step without shoes on, everyone takes deep indrawn breaths and tuts, muttering about shoes under their breath! Its a very strange viewpoint, we are after all looking at a foot that is damaged and needs healing, just like a tendon or other injury. I wonder what people's reactions would be if someone had a horse with a tendon injury, splinted it up (equivalent to a shoe on a damaged hoof) and just carried on riding it cause it appeared sound!

Not saying barefoot is for you Jo, as I remember you detailing your path down that route before, just wanted to highlight that different things work for different horses even when all evidence points to the contrary. Plus at the risk of being shot down, if you really are at the end of the road and haven't tried it (can't remember your exact story), may look into trying barefoot again, but under an DAEP/EP - the trim isn't in my opinion the main difference in this route from a farrier - its the extra "tools" they have in their box, ie pads/boots/conditioning programmes etc - it just might help tip the balance your way.

Also have another friend whose horse has come sound (at least for now) after having remedial shoeing in NB shoes, which to my eyes makes his feet incredibly flat and low at the heel, which should be wrong, but he has come sound and continues to be sound in them even now back in work, so its again working for him despite evidence that it shouldn't!

Whilst I know nothing much about Cytex and don't particularly like the system myself, if I had a horse like your's Jo, I would probably give it a go - what have you got to lose! They can, I believe, also set up a horse for going barefoot in the longer term, as they help with sole thickness etc, so may put your boy in a better position to try that route again if you thought it a possibility.

Whatever you do, my thoughts are with you, particularly if you have to make that most difficult of decisions (been there and its not nice). No one can judge you on the decisions you make, as there really isn't a right or wrong answer (which I think makes it all harder for the owner!

).

Good luck.