My horse has suddenly started kicking the stable wall...

[HoneyB24]

Hi All,

So i am at my wits end at the moment. This is the second winter i have had my mare, last winter we were at a different yard. Recently she has started kicking the wall (they are wood) and made quite a few holes, which i am in the process of repairing. She has never done this before, and it has only started the past few days or so.

She is in a small barn with 4 other horses, one next to her who she gets on well with, a quiet mare. One opposite, a gelding her seems to bug her quite a lot and can reach her over the door, pulls faces etc...but he has done this all the time. So she has a window on one side, which i covered up last night to see if she wanted a bit more privacy. She is a horse who likes her space and usually appears to be standing by the back of the stable snoozing.

So this hasn't worked. I have moved her haynet onto another wall and she appears to be kicking whilst eating her hay. She has a small holed haynet, and has a couple of sections on the floor. She has a treat ball with nuts in as well.

She doesn't appear stressed, she is out between 6 and 7 most days and in at around half 4. If she stays out later, she has a huge hissy fit! She seems settled in her stable, she is quite a clean and tidy horse and i can tell if something has upset her. She isn't in season, but she was in season in December and didn't kick then.

Has anybody got any other ideas? Moving stables is not an option and i am pretty certain she wouldn't like any of the others as they are more open and less privacy. I am on a waiting list for another yard, and turning out 24/7 at the moment is not an option. So the only thing i can think of, if these other steps do not work, is to hobble her. I don't want to do this, but in an event yard i worked at we had to hobble a horse due to the fact he was kicking the walls and damaging his legs and feet. He did manage to lie down with them on as well.

So any other ideas would be great as i am worrying about it and not sure what else i can do. Pretty certain the yard owner won't like the fact she is kicking the walls either!

Thanks

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My sisters tb has started doing this when he eats his dinner..,,he has also just been. (Dec) diagnosed with grade two ulcers....don't know if that helps at all.

 

[HoneyB24]

Thanks, it could be that i guess but she is hanovarian x and wasn't given hard feed until she came to me as she wasn't worked before. She is on a high fibre diet, somight be unlikley but the vet is coming on Friday for her vaccinations so will talk to her then. She doesn't do it when eating hard feed, just her hay.

 

[Nettle123]

Could there be a rat problem?

 

[djedgley]

My horse comes in from field with muddy wet legs and if I put him straight in his stable he kicks out with his back legs - but only when his legs are wet & muddy. I assume they must annoy or tickle him as they dry. It stops if I hose them down or when they have dried naturally.

 

[HoneyB24]

She had dry legs last night, and they weren't muddy. She doesn't have mudfever or mites, but she did suffer with mudfever so if i hose her legs off i dry them after.

 

[HoneyB24]

Could there be a rat problem?

Possibly, i have put some poisoin down in a safe place where i found some droppings.

 

[0310Star]

My horse has started doing this, two seperate occaions now this winter with 5 holes in the walls! Luckily my YO is very good about it and just fixes it as soon as she does it.

The reason my mare is doing it is because she wants to work, and basically is just being a b!tch because she wants to have her own way But with all the bad weather and also cureently having no saddle and not being able to lunge due to medical problems, consistent work is not an option right now other than the odd bareback session so she is going to have to like it or lump it

 

[HBM1]

Is she in season? One of my mares is extremely placid but doesn't like anyone at feed time when she is and has been known to lash out at her dividing wall.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Hi All,

So i am at my wits end at the moment. This is the second winter i have had my mare, last winter we were at a different yard. Recently she has started kicking the wall (they are wood) and made quite a few holes, which i am in the process of repairing. She has never done this before, and it has only started the past few days or so.

She is in a small barn with 4 other horses, one next to her who she gets on well with, a quiet mare. One opposite, a gelding her seems to bug her quite a lot and can reach her over the door, pulls faces etc...but he has done this all the time. So she has a window on one side, which i covered up last night to see if she wanted a bit more privacy. She is a horse who likes her space and usually appears to be standing by the back of the stable snoozing.

So this hasn't worked. I have moved her haynet onto another wall and she appears to be kicking whilst eating her hay. She has a small holed haynet, and has a couple of sections on the floor. She has a treat ball with nuts in as well.

She doesn't appear stressed, she is out between 6 and 7 most days and in at around half 4. If she stays out later, she has a huge hissy fit! She seems settled in her stable, she is quite a clean and tidy horse and i can tell if something has upset her. She isn't in season, but she was in season in December and didn't kick then.

Has anybody got any other ideas? Moving stables is not an option and i am pretty certain she wouldn't like any of the others as they are more open and less privacy. I am on a waiting list for another yard, and turning out 24/7 at the moment is not an option. So the only thing i can think of, if these other steps do not work, is to hobble her. I don't want to do this, but in an event yard i worked at we had to hobble a horse due to the fact he was kicking the walls and damaging his legs and feet. He did manage to lie down with them on as well.

So any other ideas would be great as i am worrying about it and not sure what else i can do. Pretty certain the yard owner won't like the fact she is kicking the walls either!

Thanks

Your mare sounds alot like mine!

I have had her for years and she has NEVER kicked in the stable. Then suddenly (about october time) she became very grumpy, charging and double barelling/kicking the partitions and wall. She even smashed her auto water drinker! Her bed would be a mess as she was charging around it. I racked my brains as i couldnt think of anything that had changed. I even put up material on the partitians so she couldnt see the horses/haylage next to her (she knew it was still there tho!) However she had quite a runny tummy as the haylage was quite wet. So I changed her to half hay/haylage then over to hay. It helped her tummy but she was still very stressed. Her stable was right next to the bale of haylage and I think she had decide that it was 'hers' as i would tie her next to it when mucking out. When other horses were tied their she would thrash around her stable and I think it was just a massive tease that she could see the bale but she couldnt stand there!! shes very food orientated!!

So I rang the vet as I thought the rich haylage had given her ulcers and he agreed that this would be his first inclination also. To rule out a behavioural ssue he suggested I swap stables so shes away from the bale for a couple of weeks. I was skeptical but tried it...halleluyah she never ***touches lots of wood**** did it again!! shes gone back to her normal self. Occasionally makes faces at the gelding next to her but the crazy behaviour has stopped. Shes been in her new stable for several months now and im so pleased with the result. It saved me a fortune in diagnostic tests too. I never used to give my mare feeds but she now gets breakfast and tea (just some hi fibre chaff) so she never feels hungry/jealous when the others are being fed.

Mares are sensitive creatures and if their bahaviour changes drastically they are trying to tell us something and its just up to us to figure it out. Sounds like something is definitly bothering her and i know how frustrating that can be - believe me!!!

I would try a stable change but ring your vet for advice. He may suggest scoping for ulcers but give her a couple of weeks in a diffrent stable to rule it out. Your horse (and your purse!) will thank you....best of luck

 

[HoneyB24]

Thanks. She isn't showing signs of being in season at the moment, usually she is a tart to the mare in the next field, but just started eating her hay. She has been on hay all winter, and the haylege we have isn't very rich...more like a cross between the 2. She has nothing else i can think of, not hay of feed stored next to her, she doesn't do it when she eats her tea or breakfast.

Unfortunatley, moving stables is not an option as i think i said previously? Our yard is full with no empty stables and there isn't one i can think of who will swap. She doesn't seem unsettled, as her bed isn't messed up, so it appears she isn't running round her box etc. She isn't showing any other signs of having ulcers and is on a high fibre diet (she suffers with mild sweet itch). She was off for 2 weeks when we had snow, and didn't do it then and she has been ridden a few times this week, so it isn't because she is not being worked.

It is frustrating as i know my horse so well and can tell when something upsets her (she is a bit of a diva!) Her behaviour hasn't changed any other way, besides the kicking. I have moved her haynet and will leavethe rug up on the window and see if this helps at all.

I wish she could talk sometimes! Maybe there is a rat and hopefully the poison will sort that out. Will keep trying a few different things and fingers crossed moving the haynet and blocking her window helps.

 

[PandorasJar]

Hi All,

She is in a small barn with 4 other horses, one next to her who she gets on well with, a quiet mare. One opposite, a gelding her seems to bug her quite a lot and can reach her over the door, pulls faces etc...but he has done this all the time. So she has a window on one side, which i covered up last night to see if she wanted a bit more privacy. She is a horse who likes her space and usually appears to be standing by the back of the stable snoozing.

Firstly I do not think hobbling is an answer. That's just a quick fix without addressing the problem and very much something that isn't necessary in this situation.

I'd not be happy if I had a horse opposite that she didn't like... and they could touch. As a solution you've covered up the window to the mare she likes? I'd sort the front so that she can't get to this gelding and him to her, not a great set-up.

I'd also be looking at physical problems, is she uncomfortable? Ulcers, back/leg problems etc. Have you changed bedding, type or depth.

To hobble a horse with a quick change like that, who is telling you there is a problem, is not for the horses benefit

 

[HoneyB24]

Firstly I do not think hobbling is an answer. That's just a quick fix without addressing the problem and very much something that isn't necessary in this situation.

I'd not be happy if I had a horse opposite that she didn't like... and they could touch. As a solution you've covered up the window to the mare she likes? I'd sort the front so that she can't get to this gelding and him to her, not a great set-up.

I'd also be looking at physical problems, is she uncomfortable? Ulcers, back/leg problems etc. Have you changed bedding, type or depth.

To hobble a horse with a quick change like that, who is telling you there is a problem, is not for the horses benefit

Just to explain, i have covered the window up facing the gelding, but in order to stop them touch it would also mean blocking her door! She can touch and see the mare next to her and is fine with that.

I understand where you are coming from, but nothing else has changed. She is on the same bedding, same feed etc. I tend to disagree with regards to hobbles. At the end of the day, she is my horse and if i can't stop this, in order to stop her from hurting herself, hobbles may be the only solution and hopefully they wll stop this from becoming a habit.

She has nothing else wrong with her, i have spoken to the vet and it is highly unlikely that she has uclers. She has had her back checked and he teeth done and is also having her teeth done again on Friday. Her teeth were much worse when i got her and she didn't do this!

 

[panda_01]

My sisters tb has started doing this when he eats his dinner..,,he has also just been. (Dec) diagnosed with grade two ulcers....don't know if that helps at all.

A friends mare does exactly the same thing and was diagnosed with grade 4 gastric ulcers last summer ... the kicking gets exceptionally bad when the stomach is unsettled ... may be worth checking out

 

[PandorasJar]

Just to explain, i have covered the window up facing the gelding, but in order to stop them touch it would also mean blocking her door! She can touch and see the mare next to her and is fine with that.

God forbid.... remind me why blocking up the door is horrific if it stops a horse she doesn't like touching her? I would assume your stables are open topped in a barn, and she has windows to a mare she likes so why not close the doorway up to stop something that shouldn't be happening other than by poor design anyway?

I also don't agree that hobbles are the only solution. It's a very extreme step to a minor problem imo.

Ulcer check is really not that expensive or big an issue and I'd be trying this first however unlikely it may or may not be.

When mine kicked out in her stable it was where her tail touching her legs would scare her - investigations showed a previously broken tail and so I took the lot off and when it grew back was fine. It was not the easy route to work out, but worth it. Hobbling would not be an option to me... a change of management and proper investigations would.

 

[HoneyB24]

and now i remember why i stopped posting on here for a while. People can be so judgemental. I have found some comments useful and others very rude and unhelpful. I have just remembered that i took her of brewers yeast last week as i moved her onto a supplement by feedmark which contains it, so i am going to put her back on it and see if that helps.

I don't see why blocking the door up will help as she has been stabled near this horse for 7 months and it hasn't been a problem before, so really don't see how it would be now.

Another reason i stopped posting is because people do like to worry others! She is showing no signs of having ulcers, believe me if she did i would have the vet out to investigate.

For once i wish i could post without being judged and having other peoples opinions pushed onto me.

I will do what is best for me and my horse, at the end of the day it will be me paying the vets bills not you. Good bye

 

[PandorasJar]

Good bye

Poor horse

 

[HoneyB24]

Good bye

Poor horse

seriously?

U have no idea how i treat my horse and i beg to differ that she is poor! I am not going to hobble her, but it is none of your business. My horse is treated very well, she gets everything she needs and is spoilt rotten! I love her to bits and would do anything for her so don't you dare judge me!

 

[OldNag]

FWIW I think you've had some useful suggestions about things to try - you've asked for opinions and people have given them.

I hope you do get to the root cause, it sounds like it's very worrying for you.

 

[philamena]

If you rule other causes out and decide it's just behaviour, I would whole-heartedly recommend the QuitKick. It's a bit expensive, but it works a treat. It's a box you attach near the door / window with sensors on the wall and when she kicks, she gets surprised by a harmless and gentle small squirt of water. Crucially, it does it without there being a human present to be giving them attention to 'reward' the behaviour.

My mare kicked the wall initially we think because she was tense because of ulcer / back pain, but then when all that was sorted she carried on doing it (though less dramatically) because it was a habit / trick she'd learned when other things made her tetchy - ie wanting her feed, another horse even daring to look at her haynet etc etc!

A couple of surprises from the quitkick and she calmly and placidly just stopped doing it.

In case anyone thinks a horse getting a gentle squirt of water is evil, it's far, far better than leaving them in a situation where they could seriously hurt themselves.

 

[jojo5]

Not sure if you will see this now following posts above, but just two suggestions - firstly, a horse I used to know continually double-barrelled the back of the box when any other horse passed the box, so your first instincts around the gelding opposite could be correct. Although he has been there a while, maybe the dynamics around him and your mare have changed in some way that is too subtle for us to notice? Is he being dealt with in some new way - going out/coming in first, treats, tied up outside box next to hay etc. it may not seem big to us but as well know horses notice the tiniest things, and if one of these things brings him into more contact with her...... My second suggestion is mites or some other insect flourishing in the bedding - I know you say that you have not changed it, but maybe the rats you have seen have introduced something? Years ago had this problem with shavings that arrived on the yard infested.

 

[PandorasJar]

If you rule other causes out and decide it's just behaviour, I would whole-heartedly recommend the QuitKick. It's a bit expensive, but it works a treat. It's a box you attach near the door / window with sensors on the wall and when she kicks, she gets surprised by a harmless and gentle small squirt of water. Crucially, it does it without there being a human present to be giving them attention to 'reward' the behaviour.

My mare kicked the wall initially we think because she was tense because of ulcer / back pain, but then when all that was sorted she carried on doing it (though less dramatically) because it was a habit / trick she'd learned when other things made her tetchy - ie wanting her feed, another horse even daring to look at her haynet etc etc!

A couple of surprises from the quitkick and she calmly and placidly just stopped doing it.

In case anyone thinks a horse getting a gentle squirt of water is evil, it's far, far better than leaving them in a situation where they could seriously hurt themselves.

Interesting, never seen anything like it.

I think most things have their place and absolutely agree that the human interaction/reward side can be detrimental and often part of the cause itself. If this doesn't go off with other movements then it looks a good product. But too many products are used in the wrong situation or dangerously without being monitored.

As you've said though, there was an initial reasoning which needed solving too. I've yet to meet a stable kicker without a trigger event, once this has been solved I think that the remembered/learned traits can then be dealt with.

 

[YorksG]

If there are rat droppings about, then there are rats about. It is more than likely that the mare is made unhappy by the vermin in the stables. Get rid of the rat problem and it is likely that the other problems will be resolved.

 

[philamena]

Interesting, never seen anything like it.

I think most things have their place and absolutely agree that the human interaction/reward side can be detrimental and often part of the cause itself. If this doesn't go off with other movements then it looks a good product. But too many products are used in the wrong situation or dangerously without being monitored.

As you've said though, there was an initial reasoning which needed solving too. I've yet to meet a stable kicker without a trigger event, once this has been solved I think that the remembered/learned traits can then be dealt with.

Absolutely, of course you need to be responsible and rule out other triggers. With mine (and I won't bore you with the long story) but it had got a lot better when we got pain issues dealt with, it also improved when we moved out of an american barn setting, and it's probably not strictly true to say it was "the same" kicking still going on out of habit, because it wasn't. But through the pain-triggered kicking, she'd learnt something that had caused a commotion and got her attention and quite often got her something she wanted, so when we got bits of 'madam' kicking, as it were, and set up the quitkick, it was very marked to see her kick, get squirted, think 'ew, that's not so fun any more' and just ... stop... You could almost see her shrug!

I would suggest that while investigating wall-kicking I would be inclined to try to stop the behaviour unless you NEED to be testing whether it's still there. Every kick is 'there but for the grace of god' goes a nasty injury. If it was another horse kicking your horse, or some other animal risking hurting your horse, we wouldn't let them carry on so we could monitor whether they stop, thus risking them doing more harm in the long run. Provided you're investigating and allow some supervised 'test' moments in order to see if the behaviour's responding to whatever you've changed, I would be inclined to try to stop the behaviour as a rule anyway ***while I investigated***. All very well discovering it's ulcers after it's given itself a concussion injury.

 

[Kat]

I'd try a grille on the door to prevent contact with the gelding. If he is invading her space it is understandable that she is kicking out, she is trying to tell him to get out of her space and is contacting the wall, either because she can't kick him or because she hopes the noise and show of aggression will put him off. Even if they have been fine before the dynamics can change without us knowing that something has changed.

If that doesn't fix it then I guess that hobbling for her own safety might be worthwhile while you investigate whether it could be ulcers, vermin etc or whether you can move her to a yard with different stables. Beware though that hobbling her could just lead her to take her frustrations out in a different way, box walking, biting, etc if you don't get to the bottom of the problem.

For what it is worth if she seems to have reacted badly to you taking brewers yeast out of her diet that points to some level of digestive discomfort, even if not ulcers. Might be worth adding it back in and even considering another digestive tonic, Fenugreek was mentioned on another thread.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

PS.

Forgot to add I tried a moody mare supplement (at its maximum dose) to no avail just to rule as much as poss out..........

I also disagree with the use of hobbles in pretty much any situation. Particularly in yours. You couldnt leave her hobbled without being there so it would be a pointless excercise anyway! Without knowing the cause of behaviour it would be really irresponsible and cruel. If horse is suffering/agitated punishing her by not allowing her to express her discomfort/unhappiness would not be right & could lead to all sorts of problems (ie. ulcers, injury in stable, more behavioural problems, weaving, agression etc
Our yard is completely full also but my very thoughtful YO saw what was happened and offered to swap with me obviously it is also in the YOs best interest as their property was being damaged.

Honestly, you would not believe the carry my horse was having in her stable and it just seemed to happen overnight. I would explain to other liveries and YO the problem and even suggest a 2 week swap trial to see how you get on (2 week was recommended to me by vet) you never know, someone might be willing to help you out all they can do is say no.............

another option may be to turn her out 24/7?

 

[PandorasJar]

Absolutely, of course you need to be responsible and rule out other triggers. With mine (and I won't bore you with the long story) but it had got a lot better when we got pain issues dealt with, it also improved when we moved out of an american barn setting, and it's probably not strictly true to say it was "the same" kicking still going on out of habit, because it wasn't. But through the pain-triggered kicking, she'd learnt something that had caused a commotion and got her attention and quite often got her something she wanted, so when we got bits of 'madam' kicking, as it were, and set up the quitkick, it was very marked to see her kick, get squirted, think 'ew, that's not so fun any more' and just ... stop... You could almost see her shrug!

I would suggest that while investigating wall-kicking I would be inclined to try to stop the behaviour unless you NEED to be testing whether it's still there. Every kick is 'there but for the grace of god' goes a nasty injury. If it was another horse kicking your horse, or some other animal risking hurting your horse, we wouldn't let them carry on so we could monitor whether they stop, thus risking them doing more harm in the long run. Provided you're investigating and allow some supervised 'test' moments in order to see if the behaviour's responding to whatever you've changed, I would be inclined to try to stop the behaviour as a rule anyway ***while I investigated***. All very well discovering it's ulcers after it's given itself a concussion injury.

Completely agree. However your solution is one which will not risk causing greater injuries itself. Hobbling is not something I'd do unmonitored and has several huge risks attached to it which would cause just as much damage as a stable kick. Not a solution for over night kicking for me.

 

[HoneyB24]

This is going to be my last post...as clearly i am a terrible owner who doesn't derserve to have a horse (can you sense the sarcasm?).

Hobbles was and always was going to be the last resort. I worked on an eventing yard where a horse would kick whilst he was eating and ended up damaging his hocks and feet. Cause was unknown, just a habit. My boss would put hobbles on him at night for his own safety and he managed to lie down and was fine left over night.

I moved her haynet last night to a different position and put her back on brewers yeast and she didn't kick last night. Also, she is showing no signs what so ever of having ulcers!

I love my horse to bits and she means the world to me, she is well fed, cared for and looked after like i would if she was my child. We have a fantastic bond, and she is my baby.

I do not appreciate being judged by people on this forum, after all this is where people come to get opinions and ideas without being judged! Horse people are b*****s. And if you knew my yard owner, she isn't the most accomodating person, in fact she is awful BUT i am on a waiting list for another yard (which is the only one in the area) so have to stay put for a while longer (again before anyone jumps down my throat)

People need to stop being so judgemental, i asked for useful advice, not people jumping to the wrong conclusion. People are so easy to say certain things when they are sat safely behind a computer, but someone wise once told me, don't write things you wouldn't say to someones face! Also i think people need to read the posts PROPERLY.

Anyone who knows me, knows i love my horse and IF she was suffering i would get the vet. I mean christ, i had the vet out before christmas and ended up paying over £200 as i knew she was not right, so don't tell me 'poor' horse.

None of you are vets, none of you know myself or my horse, none of you can judge. This forum is full of bullies and i am no longer going to be apart of it.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Bye then......tho just a little bit of advice?

You need to grow a thicker skin, there have been a few good suggestions on here....so just take want you want and leave the rest nothing more nothing less.

The reason people were saying about ulcers is that has been an experiance of theirs so they were sharing it....just because she is great in every other way doesn't mean there isn't a possibility of her having them but you are right none of us are vets.......we just have a lot of different experiences between us that we offer.
It's up to you if you get defensive over some of the comments made by people reacting to the information you have posted. Most of us just ignore them and move on. That's the beauty of this place.

Hope you and your mare get sorted.

 

[Kat]

Jeeze chill out, you've had mainly helpful responses no need to jump down our necks.

But the fact she had responded positively to going back on the brewers yeast really does suggest that the kicking could be related to some kind of digestive discomfort, which could include ulcers.