my new horse had a tantrum today - adice please!

[Storminateacup]

Well as you know I have had my new horse for about 8 weeks and he is pretty unhandled but we ve been making progress slowly and quietly. Every other day or so, I bring him in to my schooling area for his feed and then I ask him if he wil let me put his rope headcollar on, the answer is usualy no intially , so I then encourage him to walk off around the pen quietly until he starts a bit of licking and chewing, when I then give a big sigh (breathe out noisily)to signal ok, I see you want the pressure off, he then gently turns in comes over to me and then the headcollar goes on slowy and with him being a complete angel. We then do a bit of backing up and walking around then I give him a scratch and a groom and we have been lifting front hooves nicely too with him generally being a sweetie for the whole 20 min session.
Today it all went wrong!!! So any encouragement, word of wisdom, advise that DOEs NOT INVOLVE THRASHING HIM WITH A LUNGE WHIP ETC would be welcome.
So heres how it went today, he was in the round pen with my old cob, I first if all ignored the youngster and worked on grooming my older fellow and generally doing all the necessary jobs and making a fuss of him. Then I let him out back into the paddock where he ambled off to eat the grass.

Then I turned to youngster and asked him if he would put his headcollar on, No, as usual, and turned away, so I picked up the long line and encouraged him forward around the pen.
Well he exploded! Came charging at me, reared a few times bucked, leapt in the air and spun to double barrel me! I had to take cover and leapt out of the pen. He charged around and I turned my back on him and let him get on with it. Then, I went back in ******* myself, to ask him if he would be nice and put his headcollar on, same response only a bit less so, so I backed off again and let him trot round the pen threating to jump out but not really if you know what I mean.
Then I went back in again.
This time he walked around before coming in and standing quietly with lots of praise while headcollar went on.
We did a short, stress free session about ten mins then I took him out into the paddock,trying not to bit my lip in fear, and let him go.
He did a big buck and galloped off to join my other horse.

So did I win or did I lose?

Perhaps I know it myself that he as just doing what a youngster will do.

But he did look pretty formidable though. -I am tempted to smoke a fag and I gave up years ago.
If only I had my lovely daughter here to help at times like this!!!

 

[JessandCharlie]

He came to you, so I think he was just being a baby.
You'll find out how he is next time as to whether he's gone backward or was just having a 'nuts day'
Can I just say how nice it is hearing someone do it nicely, so many people don't. Let us know how he is next time you work with him! I don't think there's anything to worry about, they (and we) all have days like that!

 

[Booboos]

Personally I would not allow this kind of behaviour in the first place and I would take a whip and smack him. I would also use dominant body language and expect him to move away from me. Not really sure what to suggest if you are not happy with that approach though, whatever works for you!

 

[Maesfen]

Words fail me.

 

[galaxy]

Well I'd say he needs to learn that behaviour is totally unacceptable. If a horse comes at me I make myself as big as possible and I would have waved (or thrown if necessary) the lungeline/leadrope at him to make him back off and understand he can't come into my space like that.

Is there any reason why you can't leave a headcollar on him all the time? Then catching him isn't such a "big deal" in these early days while he's getting used to being handled. I then catch the horse and put another headcollar on over the top, so I have a firm hold of them and they get used to the action of headcollar on and off without really being able to say no.

I wouldn't say I was forceful with horses, but I don't "ask" too much. I just quietly get on with it.

 

[quirky]

I think if I had to wander round a pen for 20mins a day, I too would explode.

How old is he?

 

[irishcob]

Well, well done for not giving up anyway, and you got the headcollar on and him safely back to the field.

However, not at all sure why when you sent him away in the pen, you then turned your back on him to 'let him get on with it'? It would seem that what you were (inadvertently) teaching him was that if he runs around and ignores you, you will go away! Possibly not your intention!

So, firstly if he comes at you (totally unacceptable) you must use whatever big body language (direct eye contact, square shoulders, wave arms) and also use the long line to get him to back off immediately. It is dangerous to have a horse think he can threaten you like his, and you must ensure he isn't allowed to. Ever.

Next, put him to work! Drive him around your pen for 3 or 4 laps, then cut across and make him change direction for another 3 or so laps. If he starts ask to come in (ear locked on to you, licking & chewing, maybe head lowering), then lower your energy and body language and invite him in to the middle. Give him a lovely rub, praise and clip on your lead line. And breathe! This is a very basic description of 'Join Up' as developed by Monty Roberts. The aim is to teach your horse that being with you is the comfortable place to be (ie not having to work around pen). If he displays unacceptable behaviour (such as threatening you) then he gets put to work - simples!

(However, don't for goodness sake just chase and chase and chase him around the pen until he stops through exhaustion! Definately won't teach him anything useful, and only give him an extremely unpleasant memory!).

If this type of approach appeals to you (ie no violence, punishing with whips etc), you may want to Google 'Monty Roberts' and 'Kelly Marks' or have a look a www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk'. And no, I'm not connected or employed by them in case anyone's wondering!!

Best of luck to you.

 

[Storminateacup]

I have had him in a field safe headcollar since he arrived but it pulls back with this when catching him, so I found we have had "no nonsense" with the rope headcollar plus I haven't had to do much to have him let me put the rope one on nicely 'til today. I would say I have been "quietly getting on with it" over the past few weeks, I have not had to be particularly forceful with him, and really I dont want to go that route because If its a fight, I feel sure he would win. He is bigger and faster than me thats a fact. Mostly I have got him to do what I want by making it easy to do the right thing, hard to do the wrong. I guess there must have been a loophole I missed either that or he is smarter than I thought horses were. So must be a loophole I ve created . True I was in a hurry today. Never a good thing.
Believe you me, did make myself bigger,with body language and lunge line, star jump and threw the lunge line at him a few times, at shoulder.

 

[Storminateacup]

I think if I had to wander round a pen for 20mins a day, I too would explode.

How old is he?

He is four, he does not wander around the round pen aimlessly for 20 mins. He gets groomed we working on hiis leading and backing up, as he is green as grass unbacked and un handled 'til recently.
Its called Groundwork!!!

 

[Storminateacup]

Well, well done for not giving up anyway, and you got the headcollar on and him safely back to the field.

However, not at all sure why when you sent him away in the pen, you then turned your back on him to 'let him get on with it'? It would seem that what you were (inadvertently) teaching him was that if he runs around and ignores you, you will go away! Possibly not your intention!

So, firstly if he comes at you (totally unacceptable) you must use whatever big body language (direct eye contact, square shoulders, wave arms) and also use the long line to get him to back off immediately. It is dangerous to have a horse think he can threaten you like his, and you must ensure he isn't allowed to. Ever.

Next, put him to work! Drive him around your pen for 3 or 4 laps, then cut across and make him change direction for another 3 or so laps. If he starts ask to come in (ear locked on to you, licking & chewing, maybe head lowering), then lower your energy and body language and invite him in to the middle. Give him a lovely rub, praise and clip on your lead line. And breathe! This is a very basic description of 'Join Up' as developed by Monty Roberts. The aim is to teach your horse that being with you is the comfortable place to be (ie not having to work around pen). If he displays unacceptable behaviour (such as threatening you) then he gets put to work - simples!

(However, don't for goodness sake just chase and chase and chase him around the pen until he stops through exhaustion! Definately won't teach him anything useful, and only give him an extremely unpleasant memory!).

If this type of approach appeals to you (ie no violence, punishing with whips etc), you may want to Google 'Monty Roberts' and 'Kelly Marks' or have a look a www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk'. And no, I'm not connected or employed by them in case anyone's wondering!!

Best of luck to you.

thanks so much Irishcob, this is what I did but maybe I should have been a bit more forceful. He usually lowers his head, flips his ear back and licks and chews within 1 and a half revolutions then he comes in and on with the rope headcollar. I am very tuned into this response. So cant really see why he was so mad today, pawing ground etc. Certainly the most he went round was about 4 times and that was the first time. I would never chase him round the pen hard,to the point of exhaustion, thats if it were even possible! More like me exhausted!

Once he had the headcollar on he was his usual self a real good boy. Almost apologetic, and had his treats and lots of praise too.

 

[SirenaXVI]

Youngsters do and will have tantrums, it is almost a part of their growing up, how you deal with the tantrum determines how much they will try it on in the future.

I rarely if ever smack my horses (but will do if they REALLY deserve it) but I also never ASK, I am their herd leader and as such, what I say goes - end of. All of my horses are happy to be with me and NONE of them is scared of me, what they do is respect me.

The fact that he kept coming at you even though you made yourself BIG shows that he is lacking respect, and, whilst I would have given a warning with the lunge line (wiggling etc), if that had no effect, I would have also shouted at him, and, if necessary tapped him with a whip. Whatever you did had no effect whatsoever and in fact you baled so sorry he won that one. He scared you and he knew he had scared you, if you do not take control of the situation it will only get worse and he (being a horse) will have no option but to take control himself.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.

 

[Storminateacup]

Words fail me.

Well, thats really positive and helpful thing to say - why bother?

 

[irishcob]

Sounds like you've got a good approach mapped out - just stay calm, focused and confident (easy to say I know )! Oh, and have fun too!

 

[quirky]

He is four, he does not wander around the round pen aimlessly for 20 mins. He gets groomed we working on hiis leading and backing up, as he is green as grass unbacked and un handled 'til recently.
Its called Groundwork!!!

Words fail me.

Aww, don't get so angry at those that don't say what you want them to say.

Personally, I think at 4 yrs old, handled or not much handled, he should be doing more than putting a head collar on when he allows you, walking and backing up.
His brain needs to have something to think about at that age imo.

 

[Storminateacup]

Youngsters do and will have tantrums, it is almost a part of their growing up, how you deal with the tantrum determines how much they will try it on in the future.

The fact that he kept coming at you even though you made yourself BIG shows that he is lacking respect, and, whilst I would have given a warning with the lunge line (wiggling etc), if that had no effect, I would have also shouted at him, and, if necessary tapped him with a whip. Whatever you did had no effect whatsoever and in fact you baled so sorry he won that one. He scared you and he knew he had scared you, if you do not take control of the situation it will only get worse and he (being a horse) will have no option but to take control himself.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.

Thanks, I think I agree with you to some extent.
Trouble was he had been displaying what I percieved as respect. Backing up, leading nicely, lifting his feet for me, letting me put fly gel on his bites etc.
What do you suggest now? Starting again fresh tommorow or giving him a few days and just continue as if nothings changed.
After all in the end, he did come over to me with his head down and his demeanor soft, on my third try and without me having to have smacked him.

 

[Storminateacup]

Aww, don't get so angry at those that don't say what you want them to say.

Personally, I think at 4 yrs old, handled or not much handled, he should be doing more than putting a head collar on when he allows you, walking and backing up.
His brain needs to have something to think about at that age imo.

I dont mind if someone wishes to add constructive advice as others have done, but to say "words fail you", is just being condesending.

I agree that he needs proper work at 4 but I am not able to get him backed until May next year so I have got to try and put some of the basics in place myself, like leading him about, making him happy for the farrier to attend him and be able to tend to any injuries he may acquire, get rugs and fly masks on him etc.
I cannot just leave him to run around wild until then I can I?
Hence a little basic work.

 

[quirky]

That's a shame that you have to wait till next May. I guess if he's physically immature it may work in your favour.

Do you plan to have long lined him by then, or are you just doing the 'he's calm to do what you want with him' handling and letting whoever backs him doing all that?

 

[Chavhorse]

All I can give you is an example that happened down at our yard 2 days ago;

Clever is a 6 year old unhandled (until he arrived) QH who has learnt very much that humans are walking canteen's and nothing else. He has been at the yard for a couple of months and is now lunging well.

He was turned out in the roundpen after working and trainer went in to fetch him out, he decided a good thing to do was to turn around and attempt to double barrell her. WRONG He spent the next 20 mins cantering round the round pen with a trainer in the middle making her self as big as possible. When he started to lick and chew she backed off a bit but still kept him moving eventually she stopped him but made him stay totally out of her space.

at that point she turned and joined up with him.

Clipped rope on and led him out of the pen.

If you need help the idea of and Intelligent Horsemanship RI is a good one otherwise look for a Western Trainer as they very much work on ground manners first before going onto riding with the idea that if they can do it on the ground they can do it under saddle.

Good luck and hold firm with the approach you feel is right. Hitting a horse with a lunge whip as suggested in one of the posts above is obviously not the way you want to go!

 

[SVMel]

Agree with the advice from Irishcob, and a couple of others (can't remember, think some of what Sirena said). You did lose when you baled, but self preservation is a difficult instinct to battle!!!! However, you did end on a good note, managing to get a response acceptable to you before the end.

I would say it was just one of those boundary testing days, they happen. don't stress it, just carry on. Also, if it were me, I wouldn't stop for a few days, I would carry on as normal, dependent on horseys behaviour (I take note of their attitude every day before deciding what we'll do!), but bear in mind, now may be a good time to step it up a notch, give him something to think about.

Good luck, you're doing well, let us know what happens!!

T xxxxxxxxx

 

[Storminateacup]

That's a shame that you have to wait till next May. I guess if he's physically immature it may work in your favour.

Do you plan to have long lined him by then, or are you just doing the 'he's calm to do what you want with him' handling and letting whoever backs him doing all that?

He is physically immature, and mentally too it seems. He is a heavy ID x Cob and was rather wormy and poor when he arrived. He had been running free in a herd nd was pretty much rounded up a few weeks before being shipped to me. He has good conformation, huge joints but looks gangly still. I would say still growing. I just want him calm and confident with humans and to know that we are not the enemy, and that he likes being around us. Thats where we were up until today.
I will not be long lining him or anything more than just getting him to lead nicely , be groomed, have his feet picked out, rug him up and attend to his welfare, though I had hope that if he starts leading well I would introduce him to a few obstacles on the ground to negotiate in hand, a bit of going through gates nicely, maybe a horseball to play with and just friendly ground work games. I was hoping that I would be recreational for him whilst he is waiting to go to be backed at www.australianhorsetraining.co.uk with Jason Webbs team.

 

[Storminateacup]

(I take note of their attitude every day before deciding what we'll do!), but bear in mind, now may be a good time to step it up a notch, give him something to think about.

Good luck, you're doing well, let us know what happens!!

T xxxxxxxxx

He WAS actually a bit agitated today, as farmer had moved the cows into closer proximity.

Perhaps I should have been more mindful of that too.

I was going to STEP THINGS UP A NOTCH today as he had been so very good the past few days!!

True what you said about self - preservation instinct.
I ve seen NH practioners and Western trainers jump out the way with far smaller, less formidable looking horses than mine!

 

[SirenaXVI]

Thanks, I think I agree with you to some extent.
Trouble was he had been displaying what I percieved as respect. Backing up, leading nicely, lifting his feet for me, letting me put fly gel on his bites etc.
What do you suggest now? Starting again fresh tommorow or giving him a few days and just continue as if nothings changed.
After all in the end, he did come over to me with his head down and his demeanor soft, on my third try and without me having to have smacked him.

TBH I would vary his work more, he is a 4yo and needs to be thinking about stuff. Is there a particular reason why he can't be backed until next May?

If there is, then there is still no reason why you cannot get him used to wearing tack/saddle etc, I would also think about teaching him turn on the forehand and shoulder fore, progressing to shoulder in - all in hand. I would also start to lunge and/or long rein him, you could start in the round pen but I would want him in a larger space quite quickly. Another good exercise to teach him to keep out of your space is to make him halt then YOU back away and make him stay where you put him, this is invaluable and some horses get it quickly, it just takes time and patience with others. Teaching him to halt by placing a schooling whip on his back is another excellent and invaluable aid, start by walking him along the side of the school, place the whip on his back and tell him to halt - you will be surprised at how quickly the majority of horses soon pick this up, just keep calm and patient and it really works. I had a particularly difficult youngster (dominant mare) who used to come back at you legs akimbo, and was one that I did smack across the chest with the whip! However using the above I created a 'naughty corner' in her stable, if she moved out of it by even the tiniest amount, I would just put her back and tell her to 'stand', it was the making of her and she turned into a super mare in the end.

I actually don't believe in doing the same thing day in day out, youngsters soon become bored with this and then trouble starts - this may be why he had his tantrum today.

 

[Cazza525]

He's bored....needs to be broken by the sounds of it. Telltale signs of taking the p***.

Running loose aroud a roundpen isn't really educating him. I'm sorry,but I do think there is some use in NH,but on the other hand,a license to print money.

Longrein him in an enclosed area,also lunge. Take him to a show to gain manners in hand and enlist some help!! Maybe a friend can spare an hour or 2 a week? And gently back him as well....turn him away over the winter and then start full bore next spring.

Is there any reason why you must wait til next May??

 

[smellsofhorse]

I think you won!

He was obviously in a mood, maybe about you letting his mate out but not him!

I think what you did was right, you let him have his argument but didnt give up, he then came to you and was normal.

A typical youngster having an argument with the authority!

 

[Maesfen]

I dont mind if someone wishes to add constructive advice as others have done, but to say "words fail you", is just being condesending.

I'm not being condescending at all. If I told you what I think of the way you are going about this, you wouldn't like it either and I would be in Admin's naughty corner.
Your horse needs a leader, not someone who is pussyfooting around and boring him senseless who he has now also learnt not to respect which is the worst thing you could have done, sadly, so yes, he won that one and he'll win the next too if you don't start telling instead of asking.
It doesn't matter however short a time he has been handled, there are right ways, wrong ways and silly ways, any of which might work for any different horse but whichever way you use, you should always demand utter respect for you and your space right from the word go.
There, will that do?

 

[teddyt]

Perfectly normal horse behaviour imo. His friend was turned out and he was left with you- so he had a flid and tried to dominate you. Not taking the piss and no need for a whip (as some say)- unless as an absolutely LAST resort as self defence if you were at risk. i think you sound sensible OP- groundwork in short sessions for an unhandled horse is vital and you sound like youre doing it right imo.

However, he did dominate you when you legged it! although i understand why you did. So you do need to work on making sure when you make yourself big/noisy that he backs away and submits to you. hes only 4 and unhandled, so its perfectly normal for this to take time. Ive got a 2 year old who tries it on regularly and needs telling regularly (no whips or beatings needing, just body language). i also used to have a big horse who tried it on EVERY day with her boss field companion and needed telling everyday to clear off! And he was a horse, so even harder for a persn to have the same effect! She still tried it on after 5 years! So it all depends on the character of the horse and some need more work than others.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

He's bored....needs to be broken by the sounds of it. Telltale signs of taking the p***.

Running loose aroud a roundpen isn't really educating him. I'm sorry,but I do think there is some use in NH,but on the other hand,a license to print money.

Longrein him in an enclosed area,also lunge. Take him to a show to gain manners in hand and enlist some help!! Maybe a friend can spare an hour or 2 a week? And gently back him as well....turn him away over the winter and then start full bore next spring.

Is there any reason why you must wait til next May??

Have to say I agree. I would have thought that a HW ID x cob wants breaking whilst it is immature to a certain extent. I prefer doing it whilst they are not strong enough to object too strongly!!! I would expect my 4 yo to be hacking out, tying up, clipped and trimmed and a bit of Autumn hunting but then I am a bit old fashioned....or maybe just old. Anyway each to their own......but seems a waste when you could be doing more...?

 

[teddyt]

Have to say I agree. I would have thought that a HW ID x cob wants breaking whilst it is immature to a certain extent. I prefer doing it whilst they are not strong enough to object too strongly!!! I would expect my 4 yo to be hacking out, tying up, clipped and trimmed and a bit of Autumn hunting but then I am a bit old fashioned....or maybe just old. Anyway each to their own......but seems a waste when you could be doing more...?

I disagree I wouldnt want to be climbing on board a 4yo that has only been handled for 8 weeks! Asking to end up in hospital imo. The horse would need to be much more reliable and well handled before i would get on and thats only if its physically mature enough too. which is a big if, as some horses cant physically take a rider until they are older.

 

[Orangehorse]

OP you have obviously done well to get him this far, but I agree that you need to step up the work. Bear in mind the famous saying that the boss horse moves the others' feet, so he has to get out of your way, not you get out of his.

He is feeling better and is starting to act like any 4 year old, testing boundaries. As one US trainer said, "don't be nice, be clear." Take the lead. I was recently told that a horse in a herd follows the boss mare or is driven by the stallion, so the human has to act as one or the other, if you don't they become unsure and try to take over.

I would aim to get him out to some shows to do some inhand classes. That will give you a goal to work to. I think horses are a bit like puppies in that they need socialising and conditioning when young and get used to sights and sounds.

If you get him to the day of the show, give him a good amount of work at home first, even if you have to get up at the crack of dawn to do it, so you have hopefully taken some of the bounce out of him first - but you have to get to that stage at home of lunging or long-lining so you can make him work and give his mind and body something to do.

 

[siennamum]

Why don't you feed him after he has been good.
It's a really bad idea to work him after he has had his feed, apart from anything else you run the risk of colic.
How could you expect him to behave when you have just turned his companion back out and left a youngster alone in the pen.
I would really want to be able to simply go up to and put a headcollar on a horse when I want, not when the horse wants, it shoudn't take weeks. If it does then you are possibly really faffing and it's doing him no good at all.

My horse was feral 6 months ago, he has been reprimanded once in that time so I am no horse beater. He stood quietly to have his headcollar on from the start, with some basic correct 'old fashioned' training and lots of rewards and praise. What on eartyh is wrong with that.
You may be enjoying doing things this way, let's hope that by making such a meal out of something really fairly simple, you are not risking his future as a useful and valuable companion and riding horse for someone. Lets hope we don't see him on project horses some day.