My sister has sold a pony she had on loan

Leo Walker

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She is an awful person and I have no contact with her, but was contacted by the ponies owners as they hoped I could help. I cant do very much other than offer advice and share the details in the hope the pony becomes too hot to handle.

The pony is now with Azza cobs. A bin end dealer. He wont return the pony. No one really knows for sure where the pony is. My sister is ignoring any attempts to speak to her about this, and is then making threatening phone calls to the owner. There is a crime reference number but dealing with the police is like pulling teeth. They keep claiming this is a civil matter. Its not. My sister is known to the police. She has a criminal record for similar stuff, admittedly not horses, but they are still property in the eyes of the law, so not sure that it matters.

Anyway, not much anyone can do at this point other than to keep sharing the post so that no innocent party buys the pony, whilst the owner waits for the police to get themselves in gear

Shes a distinctive looking pony

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59967908_3239090696116888_6700553103822815232_n.jpg


And a link to the post here:

stolen pony post

link to the dealer here:

Azza Cobs
 

Equi

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There is a video of what looks like the pony on his timeline...can someone not seek info as if they are looking to buy then visit/pass on the info to police etc?

With cases like this the police really need to be told (not requested) to help. Having a lawyer/someone with law knowledge can help get the right words out. I would suggest contacting one (but as much as i also hate it, there is a part of me saying if its not that much to buy just buy it back then take your sister to small claims to recoup the money?)
 

Leo Walker

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Several people have tried to buy the pony, including me. The dealer has blocked anyone who has asked about her, even when its an innocuous inquiry. There is zero point taking her to small claims, you wouldnt get a penny out of her sadly.
 

Leo Walker

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the dealer is probably wise to it now so will only deal in life :/

Yup, for some reason this isnt getting the exposure that Logan/Maisie Langhan did, but its reached more than 20k people and the dealer has had a lot of messages and hassle, understandably so. His block list must be longer than his friend list currently!
 

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If I where the owner I would send a third party to buy the pony and then take your sister to the small,claims court .

That would certainly be the best option. It IS a civil matter as the law stands (horses don't get much protection against theft) and getting it INTO Small Claims will take time - during which time the OPs sister and the dealer will have made their money. Keep up the online pressure - and have a smart 3rd party buy it - and DEMAND the passport.
 

ycbm

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That would certainly be the best option. It IS a civil matter as the law stands (horses don't get much protection against theft) and getting it INTO Small Claims will take time - during which time the OPs sister and the dealer will have made their money. Keep up the online pressure - and have a smart 3rd party buy it - and DEMAND the passport.


It isn't a civil matter, Janet, it's theft of a property. The Police don't want to spend time on it because it's one word against another, but it's definitely a criminal offence and the owner should escalate it to a higher rank until a police officer visits the dealer.

The passport is an irrelevance, it does not signify ownership.
 

Pearlsasinger

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It isn't a civil matter, Janet, it's theft of a property. The Police don't want to spend time on it because it's one word against another, but it's definitely a criminal offence and the owner should escalate it to a higher rank until a police officer visits the dealer.

The passport is an irrelevance, it does not signify ownership.

If there was a loan contract, signed by both parties, the owner has proof that the pony was sent on loan rather than sold to OP's sister.
 

JanetGeorge

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It isn't a civil matter, Janet, it's theft of a property. The Police don't want to spend time on it because it's one word against another, but it's definitely a criminal offence and the owner should escalate it to a higher rank until a police officer visits the dealer.

The passport is an irrelevance, it does not signify ownership.

I have been through this - from a different angle. A woman gave me an unsound mare, for breeding, she didn't want to keep - in return for a good home for life. I accepted. Mare had first foal and was about to have 2nd when previous owner decided she could now have her back. I said no - so she tried to STEAL the mare back - on the verge of foaing - and steal the other too. Luckily we caught her - mare was already n her trailer - luckily the yearling filly refused to load and got away, and they were intercepted. Police arrived (called by her claiming she owned the horse and it had been here on livery.) Police reaction was that they were there to prevent a breach of the peace - it was a civil matter. I assured them there would be a serious breach of the peace if she tried to steal my horse so they escorted them off the property. She then took me to Small Claims where she was laughed out of Court. The problem is 'proof' of ownership - and no, passports don't prove it - but it's illegal to sell a horse (or transprt it) without one.
 

ycbm

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I have been through this - from a different angle. A woman gave me an unsound mare, for breeding, she didn't want to keep - in return for a good home for life. I accepted. Mare had first foal and was about to have 2nd when previous owner decided she could now have her back. I said no - so she tried to STEAL the mare back - on the verge of foaing - and steal the other too. Luckily we caught her - mare was already n her trailer - luckily the yearling filly refused to load and got away, and they were intercepted. Police arrived (called by her claiming she owned the horse and it had been here on livery.) Police reaction was that they were there to prevent a breach of the peace - it was a civil matter. I assured them there would be a serious breach of the peace if she tried to steal my horse so they escorted them off the property. She then took me to Small Claims where she was laughed out of Court. The problem is 'proof' of ownership - and no, passports don't prove it - but it's illegal to sell a horse (or transprt it) without one.


Yes, the problem is proving it is a criminal matter. That doesn't make it a civil one. The potential of a beach of the peace on the day was what the police turned up for. 'It's a civil matter' is the excuse they use for not spending any more time on it than they are forced to (understandably, if there is no evidence).

The passport is still an irrelevance. A private buyer or fetcher of this pony won't be prosecuted for transporting is without a passport, it's never happened that I can remember.
 

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Leo Walker

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Theres proof the pony was on loan, the problem is my sister is a compulsive liar and is doing whatever she can to try and muddy the waters. Given her history I cannot believe that the police wont get involved.

The Logans Law facebook page are trying to sort this and have at least got a crime reference number now. I am limited what I can do to help unfortunately. I have no contact with her at all and havent for some years now.

As it stands today no one actually knows where the pony is. My sister is claiming she has her back, the dealer wont respond to anyone who asks in any guise, I'm sure the owner would be more than happy if people wanted to try and speak to him and find out, but good luck with that! The dealers "yard" is over 250 miles away from me, but I'm not sure given the type of person who runs it, that it would be a good idea for anyone to turn up there unless they had a damn good cover story.

I really hope they throw the book at her for this, but I am almost certain she will get away with it and the best I can hope for is that enough people see the post that its not worth the hassle for the dealer anymore and the owner gets the pony back
 

cariad

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If Dotty really was on genuine loan to your sister, then she was legally in possession of it. For theft, you have to "take" something belonging to another (with the intention of permanent deprivation), but she hasn't "taken" it; she didn't need to. So it's not theft. What it is is something called "conversion". What your sister can't do legally is sell the pony (I stress, if it was genuinely on loan to her) as she has no "title" to it - no legal interest in it that can be passed on so that someone else becomes the legal owner by acquiring legal title. You can't actually sell something you don't own in the first place (anything) basically because it's not yours to sell. The person who acquires it, in this case, a pony, does not own it either, because they haven't acquired "title" - basically legal ownership- because the "seller" doesn't have title to pass on. This is the same however many times something -the pony in this case- supposedly gets sold on. No-one can legally own the pony down the line, the real and genuine owner always retains title and is the only one that can legally sell on

It is a civil matter. What has to happen is that each "owner" has to sue the previous "owner" right back to the "owner" who sold it without any right to do it. So say the loaner sells to A for £500. The true owner then comes along and somehow takes the pony back. A has no pony now and is £500 out of pocket. The real owner doesn't have to pay them back, as they still own the pony; no title has passed. So A would have to sue the initial loaner who "sold" the pony to them. But as you say, an often pointless exercise. The "real" owner could give something to A if they wanted, but they don't have to. Nor do they have to re-imburse A for the costs when they had the pony in their possession.

The owner could obtain a Court order for delivery up, possibly with a preceding injunction not to dispose of the goods (pony) pending delivery up. This is usually used for say, documents or where someone is trying to get back, say, items which are leased in order to take them back, say where there is an outstanding debt. It can be a complicated procedure and can be difficult to enforce as sometimes it needs personal service of the Order rather than just through the post, say. Plus the items can be moved. It can also be expensive, as you might imagine if you go through specialist solicitors. But the owner could potentially try and do it themselves. The Court does have a discretion as to make the Order or not, so they would need proof of real ownership and that the pony had NOT been sold and was merely on loan and could be taken back. You may also need to convince the Court that it was urgent, as otherwise the goods could be destroyed or lost. This is one of the values of a proper loan agreement -it states who the actual owner is and states clearly that the goods (pony) is/are only on loan and has very definitely not been sold. A passport is not proof of ownership. The Court is usually helpful to someone who is not a lawyer trying to do something on their own, though the staff can't advise you on the law.

The police could escort the actual owner where they are satisfied of the true circumstances, to take the pony back from whoever has it. If the actual owner enters anywhere to retrieve the pony then it would be trespass -again a civil offence, not a criminal one; damage caused during a trespass can be a criminal offence. If there is no damage caused (some people will try and fabricate damage and say it was caused by the trespasser, hence the police), then a minor trespass itself may attract a small amount in compensation for the person on whose property the trespasser has been should the property owner take them to Court. It is good that it has been allocated a crime reference number as the police are now aware.

Publicity is a good idea as then the pony becomes difficult to "sell" on or pass on. No matter how long the pony is away from the legal owner, they still remain the owner. They are the ONLY ones who can legally sell or give away the pony such that another person legally owns it. You can't acquire ownership by the passage of time.

Sorry this is so long winded. Practically, it is not an easy situation, but happens more often than you might think. Please, please, if you do have a horse out on loan, make sure you have an agreement -it doesn't have to be drawn up by a lawyer, it is just as valid if the parties do it themselves and both sign it in front of an independent witness. Even witnessing isn't absolutely necessary, but it's just someone else can say they saw it being done. The purpose of the agreement is to set down what the parties have agreed between themselves and in particular that it is a LOAN. And then please make sure you do see the actual animal on a regular basis and move quickly if it disappears, or you are told it has been put down or is otherwise unavailable. The person to whom the pony is on loan needs to be aware that the owner can and will (put it in the agreement) turn up out of the blue to check on the animal and they should not be offended by this if they have nothing to hide. It is polite to give SOME notice though -perhaps the owner is out competing or something. And it would rarely be justified to just take an animal back on a whim if the person loaning it isn't around and it is being well cared for.

Please be aware that the comments above do not constitute formal legal advice. They are generic comments based on the circumstances as described above, which I have no means of knowing are true or not, but is a situation people do find themselves in. I cannot and will not be responsible for any adverse consequences if anyone reading this takes any action, or fails to take any action, based on my comments without seeking individual legal advice themselves based on the actual circumstances. You must always do this. Is there anyone a member of the BHS helpline could ring on behalf of the owner if they are not members?
 

cariad

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Every day's a school day. Jolly good. In that case however, the loan agreement wasn't signed, so the horse may not have been legally in her possession to "sell" on, so it would be theft if she "took" it with the intention of permanent deprivation. She seemed to have had it advertised before the agreement was even signed! Interestingly the "buyer" was also done. Main thing is the horse was recovered and we have a happy owner.
 

ycbm

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English court definition of theft definitely includes this situation. You do not have to 'take' it, only to 'appropriate' it and the definition of 'appropriate' includes a situation where the pony is on loan and the loanee starts to act as if they are the owner. All defined clearly here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft

The sale of the pony by the sister is a criminal act. The subsequent sale of the pony by any person it was sold to is a civil matter if they did not know it was stolen and a criminal matter (handling stolen goods) if they did.
 

Leo Walker

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English court definition of theft definitely includes this situation. You do not have to 'take' it, only to 'appropriate' it and the definition of 'appropriate' includes a situation where the pony is on loan and the loanee starts to act as if they are the owner. All defined clearly here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft

The sale of the pony by the sister is a criminal act. The subsequent sale of the pony by any person it was sold to is a civil matter if they did not know it was stolen and a criminal matter (handling stolen goods) if they did.

This is my understanding. Otherwise I could get people to leave their things at my house and then sell them, or borrow someones car and part ex it for a new one at the garage!
 

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Every day's a school day. Jolly good. In that case however, the loan agreement wasn't signed, so the horse may not have been legally in her possession to "sell" on, so it would be theft if she "took" it with the intention of permanent deprivation. She seemed to have had it advertised before the agreement was even signed! Interestingly the "buyer" was also done. Main thing is the horse was recovered and we have a happy owner.


That horse was advertised before the loan agreement was signed but sold afterwards, as I read it. She obviously loaned it with the express intention of selling it on. What makes you think that he buyer was charged as well? Or by done did you mean the buyer was also cheated out of money?
 

cariad

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Oops, not doing very well, am I! I just read it wrongly. I couldn't understand why the buyer would be done as well, unless there was some kind of collusion going on. The article said she hadn't signed the loan agreement before putting the horse up for sale, so that would be appropriating it, as in acting in a way an actual owner could have done, so even though the actual sale was after the agreement was signed, the initial advertising could be seen as theft. Bit daft, really. Clearly intended to do it from the start, yes.

I take the point about appropriation and used the word "take" to try and explain it more easily (failed). Conversion can include a theft, but if the police try to get it dealt with as conversion, then they don't have to get involved. This one was more blatant than most, as sadly it often doesn't get noticed for a while, by which time the horse may be long gone - and the person "loaning" it too. It is getting easier to trace lost or stolen animals with the internet. perhaps more people should try and push the theft angle.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Oops, not doing very well, am I! I just read it wrongly. I couldn't understand why the buyer would be done as well, unless there was some kind of collusion going on. The article said she hadn't signed the loan agreement before putting the horse up for sale, so that would be appropriating it, as in acting in a way an actual owner could have done, so even though the actual sale was after the agreement was signed, the initial advertising could be seen as theft. Bit daft, really. Clearly intended to do it from the start, yes.

I think you may be confused on more than one count. The horse was advertised for sale before it was in the loaner's care, at that point if she had taken any money for it, that would have been fraud.
The horse was NOT sold until it was in her care after the loan agreement had been signed but as she fully acknowledged, by signing the loan agreement that the horse was not hers, taking money for it from a 3rd party was theft. Just as if I borrowed your car, with your full knowledge and sold it to a 3rd party, it would be theft.
 

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I also note that the first time she tried to report it they rolled out that old chestnut of civil matter.

Theft - Dishinestly appropriate property belonging to another, with the intention of permanantly depriving the other of it.


That would certainly be the best option. It IS a civil matter as the law stands (horses don't get much protection against theft) and getting it INTO Small Claims will take time - during which time the OPs sister and the dealer will have made their money. Keep up the online pressure - and have a smart 3rd party buy it - and DEMAND the passport.

This is not legally correct. They have as much protection in law against theft as a car does, a purse, a cat or whatever. What they don't have is the same protection against TWOC (taking without owner's consent) as a car.

With TWOC you don't have to prove that the person intended to permanently deprive the owner of the horse. So, if someone took your car as their car broke down and they wanted to go to their destination, then abandoned the car later you would struggle to prove they intended to permanently deprive the owner of it as they could say that they left the car on the street for you to find. So, they would be guilty of TWOC. TWOC is easier to prove as you don't have to prove the intention or otherwise of the miscreant, just that they took the car that did not belong to them (in a nutshell).

Horses don't have this, so if someone took your horse from the field and rode off on it, then raced it round a bit, then abandoned it, then you could not prove they intended permanently deprive the owner of it. There may be a crime of criminal damage, but not theft.

In this case the accused dishonestly appropriated the property (pony) by selling it when she knew she had no right to do so. By selling it she also proves that she had no intention to give it back (permanently depriving the owner of it), further backed up by not being honest after the event, and the threatening phone calls to the owner (an offence in itself). The dealer is also handling stolen goods.

Pity anyone who buys the pony as they will never be the owner.

If Dotty really was on genuine loan to your sister, then she was legally in possession of it. For theft, you have to "take" something belonging to another (with the intention of permanent deprivation), but she hasn't "taken" it; she didn't need to. So it's not theft. What it is is something called "conversion". What your sister can't do legally is sell the pony (I stress, if it was genuinely on loan to her) as she has no "title" to it - no legal interest in it that can be passed on so that someone else becomes the legal owner by acquiring legal title. You can't actually sell something you don't own in the first place (anything) basically because it's not yours to sell. The person who acquires it, in this case, a pony, does not own it either, because they haven't acquired "title" - basically legal ownership- because the "seller" doesn't have title to pass on. This is the same however many times something -the pony in this case- supposedly gets sold on. No-one can legally own the pony down the line, the real and genuine owner always retains title and is the only one that can legally sell on

It is a civil matter. What has to happen is that each "owner" has to sue the previous "owner" right back to the "owner" who sold it without any right to do it. So say the loaner sells to A for £500. The true owner then comes along and somehow takes the pony back. A has no pony now and is £500 out of pocket. The real owner doesn't have to pay them back, as they still own the pony; no title has passed. So A would have to sue the initial loaner who "sold" the pony to them. But as you say, an often pointless exercise. The "real" owner could give something to A if they wanted, but they don't have to. Nor do they have to re-imburse A for the costs when they had the pony in their possession.

The owner could obtain a Court order for delivery up, possibly with a preceding injunction not to dispose of the goods (pony) pending delivery up. This is usually used for say, documents or where someone is trying to get back, say, items which are leased in order to take them back, say where there is an outstanding debt. It can be a complicated procedure and can be difficult to enforce as sometimes it needs personal service of the Order rather than just through the post, say. Plus the items can be moved. It can also be expensive, as you might imagine if you go through specialist solicitors. But the owner could potentially try and do it themselves. The Court does have a discretion as to make the Order or not, so they would need proof of real ownership and that the pony had NOT been sold and was merely on loan and could be taken back. You may also need to convince the Court that it was urgent, as otherwise the goods could be destroyed or lost. This is one of the values of a proper loan agreement -it states who the actual owner is and states clearly that the goods (pony) is/are only on loan and has very definitely not been sold. A passport is not proof of ownership. The Court is usually helpful to someone who is not a lawyer trying to do something on their own, though the staff can't advise you on the law.

The police could escort the actual owner where they are satisfied of the true circumstances, to take the pony back from whoever has it. If the actual owner enters anywhere to retrieve the pony then it would be trespass -again a civil offence, not a criminal one; damage caused during a trespass can be a criminal offence. If there is no damage caused (some people will try and fabricate damage and say it was caused by the trespasser, hence the police), then a minor trespass itself may attract a small amount in compensation for the person on whose property the trespasser has been should the property owner take them to Court. It is good that it has been allocated a crime reference number as the police are now aware.

Publicity is a good idea as then the pony becomes difficult to "sell" on or pass on. No matter how long the pony is away from the legal owner, they still remain the owner. They are the ONLY ones who can legally sell or give away the pony such that another person legally owns it. You can't acquire ownership by the passage of time.

Sorry this is so long winded. Practically, it is not an easy situation, but happens more often than you might think. Please, please, if you do have a horse out on loan, make sure you have an agreement -it doesn't have to be drawn up by a lawyer, it is just as valid if the parties do it themselves and both sign it in front of an independent witness. Even witnessing isn't absolutely necessary, but it's just someone else can say they saw it being done. The purpose of the agreement is to set down what the parties have agreed between themselves and in particular that it is a LOAN. And then please make sure you do see the actual animal on a regular basis and move quickly if it disappears, or you are told it has been put down or is otherwise unavailable. The person to whom the pony is on loan needs to be aware that the owner can and will (put it in the agreement) turn up out of the blue to check on the animal and they should not be offended by this if they have nothing to hide. It is polite to give SOME notice though -perhaps the owner is out competing or something. And it would rarely be justified to just take an animal back on a whim if the person loaning it isn't around and it is being well cared for.

Please be aware that the comments above do not constitute formal legal advice. They are generic comments based on the circumstances as described above, which I have no means of knowing are true or not, but is a situation people do find themselves in. I cannot and will not be responsible for any adverse consequences if anyone reading this takes any action, or fails to take any action, based on my comments without seeking individual legal advice themselves based on the actual circumstances. You must always do this. Is there anyone a member of the BHS helpline could ring on behalf of the owner if they are not members?


A beautifully written piece, but I do not think it is factually correct, as above.
 

bonny

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I've just looked at the dealer's facebook page, what a sh1tehole :S
Quite an eye opener that Facebook page, hard to believe people are paying money for some of those poor horses. This case is very strange as I doubt the loaner got much money for her loan pony from them.. was it really worth the hassle.
 

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She is an awful person and I have no contact with her, but was contacted by the ponies owners as they hoped I could help. I cant do very much other than offer advice and share the details in the hope the pony becomes too hot to handle.

The pony is now with Azza cobs. A bin end dealer. He wont return the pony. No one really knows for sure where the pony is. My sister is ignoring any attempts to speak to her about this, and is then making threatening phone calls to the owner. There is a crime reference number but dealing with the police is like pulling teeth. They keep claiming this is a civil matter. Its not. My sister is known to the police. She has a criminal record for similar stuff, admittedly not horses, but they are still property in the eyes of the law, so not sure that it matters.

Anyway, not much anyone can do at this point other than to keep sharing the post so that no innocent party buys the pony, whilst the owner waits for the police to get themselves in gear

Shes a distinctive looking pony

View attachment 32395
60207832_3239090602783564_1487271368432025600_n.jpg


59967908_3239090696116888_6700553103822815232_n.jpg


And a link to the post here:

stolen pony post

link to the dealer here:

Azza Cobs

Your sister needs a visit. If that was my pony, hell would be released.
How much is the pony up for?
Edited to add- you’re dealing with scum, they should be treated as such. The law of the land is inadequate in this instance, the police have more pressing matters to deal with.
 
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