My youngster is not going to event, where do I go from here???

charlimouse

charlimouse

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I have a rising 5yo Scottish Sports horse by Crackenthorpe Formula One (3/4 WB 1/4 TB). I bought him to event just over 18 months ago, when he was a completely unhandled 3 yo. After spending several months getting him used to humans, rugs, stable, lorry etc. I started to break him in. He was a nightmare, it took 6 months before you could get on him and he wouldn't deck you! Anyway despite everybody telling me to give up on him, I persevered and he eventually became ok in an arena. Over the winter I took him out to some dressage, and he did very well (his worst placing was 2nd!), and jumped him a bit at home, and also at local EC's (not competition, just schooling, if another horse is in the arena jumping her freaks!). Since the ground has dried up I have started working him in the field (last summer he would chuck you off as soon as his feet touched a blade of grass), and he has been very well behaved. So last week I made the decision to start his Xc schooling. He will jump logs, little houses, skinny doubles fine, and is now very well behaved in large spaces. BUT he can't deal with any form of change in level of the ground ie steps, ditches or water. We were out with him for 8 hours until it got too dark to continue (we just kept going back the next day!), we did 3 days solid of this. He just reverts back to rearing (pretty verticle!) then bucking, then rearing. And he will do this all day. I have learnt over time how to stick on him, but he has very nearly reared over with me a few times. We have tried lunging him over these obstacles, leading him inhand, giving him a lead, bucket of feed on other side, and eventually a jolly good smack etc. Nothing is working. I enlisted the help of a 4* british team rider, who gave up after 2 hours of rearing and bucking, saying he didn't have the attitude to event.

The final nail in the coffin was yesterday. I took him to my regular trainer, and just said we needed a bit of fun over some small SJ's just to get him enjoying jumping again. All was going well down a grid, until she said to come to a single fence with a yellow filler (he has jumped this fence before, but in an arena). He wouldn't go near it. Moved fillers, put poles on floor, he still wouldn't go near them. It took us 3 hours of rearing and bucking (he nearly went over twice) to get him over a pole on the floor. My trained then told he with his attitude he is not going to event.

I don't know what to do. I have spent so much time, effort, blood (litterally:eek:), and tears on this horse. And the outcome is he is probably not going to do what I want. Silly as it sounds I absolutly (sp) love this horse. I have done everything with him, so I am reluctant to give up now. I am the only person who has ever ridden him, and on the flat in an arena he is so intune with me he listens to my thoughts, rather than my aids. Everybody is telling me to sell him, but who would buy a horse like this? He follows me round the field, he won't allow anybody else to lead him, and if we are out and he looses sight of me he panics majorly. But I feel like I have completely failed him.

He has had back, teeth, tack all checked, and has also had a in depth vet examination, which found no physical reasons for him be like this.

So what would you do with him???? I am wanting to event, but maybe if I keep him I can get to like dressage :confused:.

If I made the decision to get rid of him he would need a very experianced rider, but as he is a very compact 15.3 his market would be limited. He also has a sarcoid, near his sheath (which I want removed, but my vets seem reluctant).

What do I do?????????????

Here are a few pics of him

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Sorry this is so long. But any ideas appreciated.
 
He is still very young, so I wouldn't give quite up yet. Does he enjoy jumping in general? Is he ok to hack out on his own/in company over different terrains?
 
Personally I'd turn him away for 3 months and then have another go- sometimes it works and it sounds like you like him enough to try.
Don't discount sending him to someone like Richard Maxwell (a proper horseman, not any parelli sh*t!)
 
What a super 4 year old.

What's your rush? He needs to mature - let him.

It also sounds to me from your post as if you are completely over cooking him.........
 
Personally I would just relax abit and start having some fun with him,do things he enjoys, let him find his courage and confidence, you haven't really given him much time, and 5 is no age at all. I have a TB who is 9 this time, and we have only just got him 'onside' to most things.
Just do some lowkey stuff, avoid the xc for now unless its a farm ride in company and maybe take him on a few farm rides.
There is no set timescale for horses to follow, and you can't make them stick to schedules.
Sorry you are frustrated but that's horses for you.
 
He sounds so frustrating and I have every respect for you for doing so well to get him to where he is at the moment!!

I have battled with a handfull of horses like these several times and IMO if the attitude is not there from the very beginning its just not worth perservering with. I also had a horse that was completly petrified of steps/ditches and water and it took me 4 years to get round to selling him as he was so classy in every other respect. Some days he would do steps and water fine and the next day he would look at the same ditch and water and completly freak and refuse point blank to do it. I came to the conclusion that if the light/shadows were wrong on the step/ditch/water, that is when he didnt want to do it.

Some top eventers call this 'the warmblood syndrome' ( even tho my horse was a full TB) when they'll just jump a ditch one day and say no about the same ditch the next day. Just not worth going on with. They'll cope with SJ and dressage, but cant cope with the likes of XC-. Cross country does not fit in with their regulated rules of what they can cope with. ( as sj and dressage is always the same wherever you go, but xc is always different)

So he wouldnt be the only one!

I would concentrate on SJ and dressage and do absolutely NO cross country as this has obviously completly fried his brains and scrambled him up mentally.

Or you could turn him away for the summer, and hunt him really hard over the winter, over good jumping country, to get him going, and he may be ok with cross country next year!?
 
I think it sounds like your overwhelming him, and everything too much toof ast. He is only 5.
8hrs on a xc course, 3hrs for a jump. Sounds like he's getting his mind blown with pushing him to be up to a 'standard'.
Let him chill, build up groundwork, go on farm rides or something similar with other horses, just take the pressure off for eventing.
You want to get to the stage where you are not putting him in a position to rear, hard as that seems so baby steps
I am normally a traditionalist but if there was someone good round you who specialises in difficult horses (thinking richard maxwell or the like) I woul dbe getting them out too.
 
He enjoys jumping at home in the arena, but he doesn't really enjoy it when he is out. He is 100% for me to handle, and is beginning to get a bit better with my mum, but he is very much a one person horse. Until I got him he had never had any handling, so we have done everything together. Hence why everyone thinks i'm mad, but i'm unwilling to give up on him.
 
agree with the mule sounds like you've been pretty active with him since you've had him so chuck him out in the field for a few months and then re-evaluate hopefully he won't cost you much in that time

if you don't find him any better then personally i would move him on as a dressage pone -eventing is already a very expensive sport so if thats what you want to do at least make sure you have horse that's wanting to go-forward it may be heart breaking but in the end you'd be doing neither of you either favours keeping him as probably one of you will be unhappy
 
amymay said:
What a super 4 year old.

What's your rush? He needs to mature - let him.

It also sounds to me from your post as if you are completely over cooking him.........
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I agree, some youngsters take a lot of time to become physically and mentally ready for things like this. I'd maybe give him a couple of weeks break, bring him back up slowly, let him enjoy things again, don't rush him, and see where that gets you.

You obviously like him enough to try it, and he looks like a poppet!
 
Have you had him physically checked? as in like thermo imaging which will flag up hotspots over the body?

My mums horse was lovely one day would jump a fence the next time he would come around and wouldnt go near. Another day would win a high class show next I couldnt get him out of the lorry park.
Turned out he had a kissing spine.

My boy was a saint from a 4 year old until he hit his 6th year, he had deep seated tissue damage which he had sustained from a yearling.
He would always jump, but flat work went from 70%+ to 60% and he reared and reared and reared, I couldnt get him out anywhere not even with other horses.

Now although has learnt to nap and be cheaky i have my boy back and jumping better than ever :)

If all the above is checked, Id approach Richard Maxwell as TheMule has suggested. But only him.

ETS i would also turn him away for a few months, try again and then hunt him in the autumn :)
 
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He's had a very busy time and perhaps just needs a bit of space to take it all in. I would turn him away for at least 3 months and start again making sure everything is fun. I'm starting my three year old this summer but she will be turned away again over the winter to be a horse and to take the pressure off.
 
I agree he is just a baby and it sounds like he has been totally upset by too much too soon.
It is very easy to overface a young horse and I certainly wouldn't be getting into hours long battles with him - that does nobody any good. At 5 too he is probably just going through his teenage stage. You need to rebuild his confidence little by little. From the pictures hes does not look particularly strong and mature for his age.
I know it is hard not to get carried away but it is not a race and all mature at different times just because some 5 yos can be out doing BE does not mean they all can and just because he can't now does not mean he never will. You need to go back to basics and rebuild his confidence SLOWLY.
Also agree he has done so much a break for a few weeks would do him no harm at all.
 
Hacking is also a bit of a nightmare, we are slowly building up his confidence, but he will just suddenly explode (the other day he saw a twig!).
 
seabiscuit said:
He sounds so frustrating and I have every respect for you for doing so well to get him to where he is at the moment!!

I have battled with a handfull of horses like these several times and IMO if the attitude is not there from the very beginning its just not worth perservering with. I also had a horse that was completly petrified of steps/ditches and water and it took me 4 years to get round to selling him as he was so classy in every other respect. Some days he would do steps and water fine and the next day he would look at the same ditch and water and completly freak and refuse point blank to do it. I came to the conclusion that if the light/shadows were wrong on the step/ditch/water, that is when he didnt want to do it.

Some top eventers call this 'the warmblood syndrome' ( even tho my horse was a full TB) when they'll just jump a ditch one day and say no about the same ditch the next day. Just not worth going on with. They'll cope with SJ and dressage, but cant cope with the likes of XC-. Cross country does not fit in with their regulated rules of what they can cope with. ( as sj and dressage is always the same wherever you go, but xc is always different)

So he wouldnt be the only one!

I would concentrate on SJ and dressage and do absolutely NO cross country as this has obviously completly fried his brains and scrambled him up mentally.

Or you could turn him away for the summer, and hunt him really hard over the winter, over good jumping country, to get him going, and he may be ok with cross country next year!?
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Excellent advice- i have known so many jumping issues solved with a good seasons hunting. Lots of short days eg 2 hours twice a week. It really gets them forward thinking and teaches them to not give a stuff about funny ground. Dont give up yet- looks like a super talented horse that needs some fun TBH
 
Ok, I would turf him away for a few months as TheMule as suggested. Before that, I would work on getting him confident in different situations, so hacking out alone, wandering around a jumping competition (not competing) and making everything a positive experience for him.

After that, I would go back to complete baby steps, so just playing around over uneven terrain, getting him to get his own balance, and use his brain without pressure from you. Get him to think for himself and enjoy doing so. Once he is happily investigating and not automatically saying NO to any new question, then start to introduce XC fences, slowly, calmly and not making a big issue out of anything!

My mare was a cow with steps and water etc, she just didn't understand, is quite "independant" minded, so if she didn't understand she would try and take charge and run away from it. If I made a big deal, she would argue and it was no longer the original question that was the issue, but the arguement we had got into! I could quite easily have got into hours of arguements, but avoided it.

Take away the pressure, and just quietly keep asking, letting them sort it out. if they turn away, gently turn them back, but don't tell them off.

These "thinkers" are the ones that if you get them on side, will do anything for you IMO. Give them chance to work it out and enjoy it first of all :D
 
Do you hack him out much, particularly off road? I would back off the jumping for a while and go and play on some easy but undulating terrain, going up and down very small sloping banks, etc.. Then progress on to slightly bigger or steeper banks and teeny steps, and so on. If you can, box him up and take him different places to hack out so he has more exposure to different environments and terrains.

If it took that long to get him happy to have you on board then you might just need to give him a lot more time with very very basic stuff and hacking and easy parties before you ask him to try again with the things he's struggled with. He's obviously sensitive but also very dependent on trust and confidence. I'd be inclined to stick with him for maybe a year, work on the things he likes and enjoys, allow his confidence to build up and just see what happens from time to time when you introduce something a bit more challenging. If he doesn't improve on the XC and more challenging jumping and terrain exercises then at least he will be more established both for dressage and hacking, and possibly SJ, and he would sell more easily.

I don't think, from what you've said, that there is any point having big fights with him. Better to keep things calm and positive (firm!) and introduce things in such a way that it doesn't have to turn into a fight if he really can't cope with what you're asking. If you know that he will not give in, best not to make an issue in the first place.

For him to be an eventer he will have to develop much more confidence but given how good a partnership you have with him I don't think this is out of the question. Nonetheless, I wouldn't give him more than a year if what you really want to do is event and he is not happily jumping small ditches, small steps and going through easy water by then. Also, if his tendency to rear, etc., is knocking your confidence then it may be better to sell him sooner rather than later, but under the circumstances I'm not sure he'd be easy to sell.
 
amymay said:
What a super 4 year old.

What's your rush? He needs to mature - let him.

It also sounds to me from your post as if you are completely over cooking him.........
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Totally agree!

Personally, I'd be turning him away for a few months or really dropping the pressure i.e. hacking/ride outs rather than jumping.
 
I agree with pretty much what all the other posters have said, I think 8 hours trying to forse him to do something is a lottle exessive and then going back the next day and the next theres no wonder he is getting p!ssed off and is probabky wondering why you aren't listening to him :( I hope you were exagerating when you said that.
It does sound like you've done a fab job so far, so maybe just do basic schooling and hacking for a while to get his confidence back and then in 6 months if he is happy then push him a little bit more. But please horses mature at difference rates mine was seriuosly about 8 before she was mentally ready to be pushed
 
KatB said:
If I made a big deal, she would argue and it was no longer the original question that was the issue, but the arguement we had got into! I could quite easily have got into hours of arguements, but avoided it.
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echo a lot of what Kat has said but particularly this.

i think my mare and Kat's have a lot in common- you need to make sure you (and they) keep focussed on whatever it is that you are working on and not let it develop into a huge battle otherwise they focus on fighting you and forget the question you asked in the first place.

it has taken a bit of time and a lot of effort for Millie's reaction to anything she didn't like to not be "f**k off!!" but instead if she needs a minute to work something out, she is given that time and then quietly asked again- her initial response is now 1000% times better in 9/10 situations (she is a mare so i expect the 1/10 toys out of pram at the moment!).

try and take the pressure off a bit (i know from experience it is hard!) and don't think of him as a 'potential event horse' but just try and take each day as it comes and make tiny steps of progress.

the only bad days i have now with Millie is when i put too much pressure and her and also on myself to do something perfectly- on those days she is best left out in the field!
 
But he is only 5 years old, I don't think anything you have described could possibly set in stone that he won't event.

If its taken a while for you to get this far, then it may take a while for him accept ditches/banks etc.

I accept that it must be hard work and I do feel for you, but the fact remains, he's a five year old and by the sounds of his behaviour purely towards these types of XC fences, he's throwing his teddies out because he just simply can't get his head round it, but he's got a young head on him, is there a rush?
 
millitiger said:
echo a lot of what Kat has said but particularly this.

i think my mare and Kat's have a lot in common- you need to make sure you (and they) keep focussed on whatever it is that you are working on and not let it develop into a huge battle otherwise they focus on fighting you and forget the question you asked in the first place.

it has taken a bit of time and a lot of effort for Millie's reaction to anything she didn't like to not be "f**k off!!" but instead if she needs a minute to work something out, she is given that time and then quietly asked again- her initial response is now 1000% times better in 9/10 situations (she is a mare so i expect the 1/10 toys out of pram at the moment!).

try and take the pressure off a bit (i know from experience it is hard!) and don't think of him as a 'potential event horse' but just try and take each day as it comes and make tiny steps of progress.

the only bad days i have now with Millie is when i put too much pressure and her and also on myself to do something perfectly- on those days she is best left out in the field!
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I agree, I think Millie and Lucky were seperated at birth ;)

When I stop thinking of the HUGE picture, and break it up into what has been achieved over the last 6mnths, it makes for much more satisfying thoughts!!

I too fell into the trap of putting huge expectations on a talented young horse, and almost ruined him, and my confidence. He is now exceeding all expectations with a new owner with lower expectations, as they have taken the pressure off him.

Don't fall into the same trap, and enjoy the baby steps ;) :D
 
Where I am the hacking is all on busy roads, except for a very short track, and there are no hills as I live on a flood plain!

Thanks for all the advice. My trainer has been getting at me for weeks to get him out XC, and that he should be doing BE by now, so why am I wasting time!?!?!?! I think the problem is he was looking pretty established at home, so we thought he was ready. I am supposed to be taking him XC next week on a clinic, with my trainer, who told me yesterday to make sure I bring a lunge whip, and if necessary we can park a car next to jump to shine light on it once it gets dark. She is of the opinion that he must never get away with not jumping a fence, however long it takes.

I may try a different trainer.................
 
I agree with most of the other posters, he is still baby and seams to have acheived such a lot with you already, I would be tempted to turn him away now for the summer and let him chill out, its amazing how much more they grow up in this time, then do some hacking out in company and maybe even a bit of hunting, make doing things with him fun! It should be fun and not a battle, what you got to loose, I doubt you would even be able to sell him in that time.
 
charlimouse said:
Where I am the hacking is all on busy roads, except for a very short track, and there are no hills as I live on a flood plain!

Thanks for all the advice. My trainer has been getting at me for weeks to get him out XC, and that he should be doing BE by now, so why am I wasting time!?!?!?! I think the problem is he was looking pretty established at home, so we thought he was ready. I am supposed to be taking him XC next week on a clinic, with my trainer, who told me yesterday to make sure I bring a lunge whip, and if necessary we can park a car next to jump to shine light on it once it gets dark. She is of the opinion that he must never get away with not jumping a fence, however long it takes.

I may try a different trainer.................
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Sorry to say this but I think you need another trainer...and pronto, before he ruins a perfectly good 5yr horse.

I'm rather quite shocked at that.
 
charlimouse said:
Where I am the hacking is all on busy roads, except for a very short track, and there are no hills as I live on a flood plain!

Thanks for all the advice. My trainer has been getting at me for weeks to get him out XC, and that he should be doing BE by now, so why am I wasting time!?!?!?! I think the problem is he was looking pretty established at home, so we thought he was ready. I am supposed to be taking him XC next week on a clinic, with my trainer, who told me yesterday to make sure I bring a lunge whip, and if necessary we can park a car next to jump to shine light on it once it gets dark. She is of the opinion that he must never get away with not jumping a fence, however long it takes.

I may try a different trainer.................
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WTF I would defo be giving the trainer the sack.
 
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