Napping Mare, Help please!

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emilya

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My 5yo mare has been broken about a year but she just doesn't want to go forwards. She'll do the bare minimum and if you ask for any more she'll put her ears back and get really grumpy. Its the same in the school as it is out hacking, infact some days you can't get out the driveway. She's happy loose or on the lunge, so I just think perhaps she's doesn't like being ridden. I've only had her a couple of months so am still trying out things with her but its driving me insane. (since getting her I have found out that she did nap with her previous owner) she's had her back, tack and teeth all checked and theres no obvious signs of discomfort. When she refuses to move, she gets more admant not to go if you try and make her. If you smack her or hit her she just kicks out. I'm trying to make her life more varied but shes not making it easy for me. Any ideas on how to get her going? thanks
 
In all honestly I would consider having her back checked again if you are aure that her tack is all fine.Ans maybe get a second opionion on her feet.The only other thing I can do is to speak to a behavorist.Please see below an email adress for a lady called Linda Watson , I contacted her a while back when my horse was having problems and shell talk you though what you can do to improve her and resolve the probelm.Hope it all works out for you,

equissense@yahoo.co.uk
 
will she go along with other horses? that'd be the first thing i'd try.
i have a mare who can be like this. someone told me that if you clamp your legs on hard then many mares will freeze because it is an instinct for when a stallion jumps up and does so, so they stand still. no idea if it's true but it's an idea. i try to make them go forward from very light aid and insistent voice, fwiw, very few horses object to that, and often they'll give in and go "oh, alright then" very quickly.
i'd try a totally different saddle tbh... some saddles just aren't right for that particular horse even though a saddler can say so. also, not all saddlers are brilliant, put it that way. at the very least i'd put a prolite pad under if you haven't already.
if she'll go along with others, i'd try that for a bit, try to teach her that being ridden is fun...
best of luck!
(must admit, this type are not fun at all, esp if they'll try to bronc you off if you insist. sometimes you just have to think "is it worth it?" and do the right thing for yourself and the horse... sorry if that sounds horribly harsh, but riding's supposed to be fun.)
 
She'll follow other horses just about, but still doesn't like really going forwards, its almost like riding with the handbrake on! I've tried 3 different saddles on her now, and she doesn't seem to be any different. I made a point of riding her the other day and when she started to slow down I just used my voice and she even kicked out at that! It was unbelieveable. Its strange though as she doesn't try to get you off at all. I know what you me about the fun bit, this is no fun at all.
 
depends how much you love her then! you could try other treatments (mctimoney chiro is excellent imho), get your vet to do a thorough check, try animal behaviourists, get her teeth and saddle checked by different people. it is strange for a horse to be so unwilling to go fwd so i think there probably is a physical (or mental) reason somewhere. trouble is, you could easily spend a fortune and get no real answers or progress.
best of luck.
fwiw i have a similar mare who i am taking to the hunt, because i have reached the absolute end of my tether. it's breaking my heart but i can't/won't sell her on because she's such a cowbag that she would definitely go down in the world. sometimes it's very tough but unless you are happy to have an unrideable pet for the next 20+ years...
also, this type of horse really dents your confidence and convinces you that you can't ride. rode mine 3 days ago and said to friend "do you think i dare try to trot a circle?" (we both laughed at it, ridiculous, i am not a wimp!) and sure enough, did 1/2 a circle and she bronc'd and reared, because she saw someone walk across the yard next door...
best of luck whatever you do.
 
It sounds like your mare could have trust issue with you, my gelding was the same for the last 10 years - I have only kept him because I bred him and honestly couldn't figure out where we had gone wrong, I started Natural Horsemanship after going to see Parelli 2007 at NEC - not really doing it strictly at all but even the little things I've done have made a huge change in him in every way but especially with trust - he'll now go anywhere without question which is making hacking out a joy once again. Stoneleigh are doing sessions and check out their website www.parelli.com too for tips. Best of luck.
 
I used to ride a mare that was very similar to how yours sounds. It was almost as if she'd been asked too much from a young age, i.e. to work in an outline etc, before being taught about having some fun. I found that giving her a tap across the withers with the end of the reins rather than using a stick helped a lot with her, but basically she just needed to go out and have a bit of fun. Cubbing really was the making of her and I think she's fine now (has been sold so I'm not entirely sure!) Do you have anyone that can help you or maybe have a sit on her?
 
Thats the trouble, shes actually very talented, but she just doesn't want to do the job at the moment. She doesn't buck or rear or make you feel unsafe, she just doesn't want to go. Its wierd cos I've always found most horses will go with others or eventually but she's adamant. I think she was quite harshly broken in, from what I can now gather. I just think that she see's the whole riding thing as a nasty experience. I'm trying really hard to make everything a pleasant experience but its not easy when you getting nothing back from her!
 
Poor you! Just a few more thoughts for you. Echo other ideas but have you tried putting her on bute type pain killer for a week or two? Its helpful to rule out pain although of course not all conditions (bad arthritis for instance doesn't respond to bute that well). Saddles - can you try a Torsion? Not suggesting you ride in one long term, but again, trying a good treeless saddle rules out many saddle fitting issues.

Although her back has been checked, conditions in the pelvis and sacroiliac can cause these symptoms under saddle. If she is insured get her nerve blocked in these areas as I've found people can go on and on trying chiros, different methods/tack/etc prolonging the agony of really sorting out what's going on. (And my own experience!)

Best of luck.
 
That sounds very similar, I think she was lunged to death before being sat on when broken and then forced into an outline, I also now ride her on a free rein and have stopped ridding her in the school at all. and am just trying to get her to enjoy hacking, but its difficult
 
That sounds like a good idea, as she is so adamant that she doesn't want to go, although sometimes if you get her going she can go for a few mins without fussing and ears forward and without any cares. I have to say my gut instinct is that its mental not physical. But I guess I've got to now try something else. thanks
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I brought my mare a few months ago and she sounds just like yours but she knows how to rear (not badley but its not fun)!! She wouldn't go forwards in the school or hacking in company or her own!! Have you had a instructor look at her, we solved it by dragging her along to start hacking off road, also cantering in the school as soon as I got on so she had no choice and forward is the only option!! She has finally got it!! Im also getting a better rider than me to hack her in company as I cant do it, but she is so talented at jumping and on the flat that it is worth it!! I can still taking her out competing and she is fantastic at that so im enjoying her.
 
I have one like yours although he's a gelding. Somedays he will move forward begrudgingly and others he won't put one foot in front of the other. The added pressure is he will rear if pushed so all in all a disaster and its not something thats got better with age as he has now learnt he can avoid work like this. We are grateful for a circuit of trot which is absolutely bl@@dy silly really. I think he just hates being ridden and being backed in a professional yard soured him. Time out to just hack worked for a couple of weeks and then back to his old ways.

Just like your mare I am sure his is mental as every physical check has been done over and over.

The only redeeming thing is that he is a lovely gentle horse he just has an innate hatred of being ridden which is a real waste as he is very talented.
 
From what you have said, i would say this is a dominance issue, your mare is basically riding you ie. she is in control!

Go back to your ground work and long rein her, longrein her everywhere if she stands and kicks and bucks bloody wallop her until she goes forward... when you have her respect on the ground, do your ridden work again.

This may seem harsh, but your horse will have no future unless it is sorted.

People use backs, teeth, ill fitting tack too many times as an excuse for my liking, 99% of the time it will be a mental issue.
 
daisychain, how I agree! We have a little mare we bought as a napper, sorted it out - most of the time - but sometimes she will nap still, if only the previous owner had sorted it quicker, its not harsh to say the horse will have no future, in the wrong hands ours which we love dearly would end up useless, Emilya get some good help quickly before your lovely horse establishes this behaviour it will be worth it in the long run, but it has to be a good trainer who knows what they are doing and be prepared for the horse to be seriously told off BUT if the trainer is good then you will be able to watch the progression and love it to bits in the end - good luck I dont envy you
 
hmm, this is good advice... but, it doesn't work for all of them.
long-reining and beating the hell out of the horse if it doesn't go forward. i know of at least one person who ended up in a coma after being kicked in the head by the horse they were long-reining. most horses will go forward, yes, but some, if it is a pain/physical or deep-seated mental issue, will not.
with my mare, it isn't a "her dominating me" issue. i've tried the seriously telling off etc etc,i've tried beating her, waiting her out, blindfolding her (!!) nothing works. i'm no coward or wimp but some horses just do not respond the way a normal horse does. some horses will give in and become model citizens, i've experienced this. some just do not.
 
IME horses with bi-lateral lameness feel exactly like they've got the handbrake on. Might be worth getting the vet to do some nerve blocks if it carries on.
 
a very good point. there was a long post the other day
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php?Number=3919284
an experienced HHOer whose good mare was napping when jumping. vid shows her changing legs in front etc.
turned out she did have probs in both front feet, showed up when nerve blocked.
(fwiw my mare has naturally weak tendons in both front legs according to vet who scanned her for me. she's never strained them, has done very little work, but perhaps she knows there's a weakness there.)
 
Ditto Kerilli - if I tried this with my mare who can be similar I think I'd end up dead! If I smack her when she naps she just chucks every trick at the book at me and will not think twice about backing into ditches, rubbing into hedges etc etc as well as leaping and launching at the same time. Very scary particularly as this particular mare really does not have a nasty bone in her body normally - it's almost as if someone has flicked a switch if you smack her!
What has worked with her (on top of an awful lot of patience) is that when she naps I spin her in a circle and growl at her - generally make napping unpleasant - as soon as we are pointing in the correct direction I relax and she gets lots of praise for just trying and even 'thinking' forwards.
It took weeks and weeks of this and we are still not free of the napping behaviour totally, but she knows that if she tries it and she gets spun round and growled at not to even bother trying it on again - she knows it's just not worth it now I think!
We also did a lot of hacking with others - and we always try to do circular rides - she always gets lots of praise for 'forwards'.
And I echo what others have said about getting all possible physical things checked out!
Good luck - napping is not fun!
 
I've actually tried having it out with her as such, as she just gets worse and more adamant about it. Usually the only way to move her is to let her relax, as when she refuses to move her back tenses and raises, if you try asking or telling her to move then she will just get worse, however if you wait for her to relax then ask you will get a forward step, even if it is only one!
She is quite stumbly on her front feet when walking down hills out hacking, i just put it down to her age and that she hadn't been out of the school in her previous home. Think maybe I should check her front feet out, even if just to rule it out.
 
Hi, PLEASE dont do what I did... she was my first mare and assumed she was just being marey and that we didnt get on, symptoms were exactly the same... We went down the ulcer route and found some, treated them and were very difficult to heal, so went down the bilaterally lame route and found an answer (hopefully- dont know if its the right one yet!)... if you read my recent posts you'll see what Im on about!

Please feel free to PM me, had so much heartbreak and not knowing what to do over the past 18months Im happy to talk to you about it if you want
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Re bad backs, an interesting fact is that one of the few things that goes "wrong" with backs is kissing spines, and then apart from the odd genuine back muscle pulled, most back tension is caused form avaiding the weight on a leg.
M x
 
Thanks, I just feel that although I feel that she's walking all over me, to insistshe go by smacking her etc is not going to get me anywhere. I really feel that I need to get this horse to want to work otherwise we'll never get there. If that makes any sense!
 
Get her properly assessed by someone that works with such horses, including have them ride her.

I do agree in principle with the idea that not every napping horse is in [physical] discomfort but I would say it plays a part in many, many situations, even ones that get sorted without veterinary intervention. It's far more complicated than "will" or "won't".

As mentioned, we've all been treated to a play by play of a similar situation on here recently, with very good, experienced people involved. And there was a similar, equally well documented situation with another horse not so long ago. Never say never.

No one on the internet, no matter how well meaning or experienced, can tell you what to do without seeing the horse and the whole situation. There are so many subtle clues to assess before you can make any sort of pronouncement. If you're at a cross roads, as you say, it's worth the money for an opinion and some thoughts on how to proceed.
 
emilya I think you have pointed out your problem. " She is quite stumbly walking down hills." Do get her front feet checked out. Years ago I used to look after a big hunt horse. One day we were snowed in and I had to ride in the snow in the sandschool. He went like a dream, but we still did not realize that he had navicular until later. Good luck
 
I will definately get her feet checked out, thanks. One of the reasons I don't think its pain related is she can go from being really horrible and refusing to move to being fine and trotting up the road quite happily.
 
As i mentioned before, go back to ground work... you may have to work her for 6 weeks before you get on her. The trouble is horses arnt daft, however brave you are there comes a point when you will back off, EVEN if you dont realize it.

When you work from the ground you havent the fear of falling off so will push them forwards more.

From what you have said i would put money on it its in her head!

I used to work on a yard who delt in problem horses, and there isnt much i havent seen.

I would also say that when you are on a horse and absolutely know in your mind you are confident of winning you will. If you get on and think sh1t, not again then they have got you and you wont.
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Good Luck with your horse.
 
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I will definately get her feet checked out, thanks. One of the reasons I don't think its pain related is she can go from being really horrible and refusing to move to being fine and trotting up the road quite happily.

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so she is better once she is warmer up?
symptomatic of many, many conditions im afraid!
have you lunged her on concrete, and deeper sand, on a small circle? eg 10m. has she been flexion tested?
id try those things first, id also ride her in completely different tack, perhaps try a straight bar rubber bit (happymouth straight bar ideal, no nutcracker action) and a good saddle with a wide gullet. and try a couple of different riders. anythings worth a try when you get desperate!
try tacked up with rider on the lunge, and without, with a video camera if necessary, check footfall and tracking up / lack of etc. is she straight or is she swinging her quarters inside or out? is this the same on both reins?
has she seen a good vet or dental technician if the vet didnt work? my last remedial case was sorted following our dentist, 20quid well spent! she has now gone BE eventing. not bad for a goresbridge reject! is she teething?
what is her conformation like? is she strong enough physically to do what is being asked? does every session make her sore? better 10 mins quality work than 30mins struggling. what surface do you ride on? is it good enough?
do you have a good farrier, and how much experience do they have? are they aware of your problem?
i know you said youve had some things checked but its worth a second opinion.
good luck, you'll get there in the end. keep a diary, ive found that helps, suddenly, the penny has dropped (me, not them!) and its all sorted.


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Have followed this post with interest, lots of good advice that I agree with. The other thought would be to include some positive re-inforcement work ie clicker training. Some horses for whatever reason just don't seem very motivated by negative re-inforcement ie the ceasing of discomfort/pressure as a reward. The horses that I have known that just don't seem to respond/improve to training have I think 100% of the time turned out to have a something wrong with them for example kissing spine.
 
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