Natural horsemanship, good or bad?

[bellaboo]

A friend of mine recently had a certified Monty Roberts instructor out to deal with a problem she had with her horse. He was rearing coming across the field and whenever he wanted to get out of doing something he did not want to do. We had tried everything and it had got to a point that if something was'nt done soon he would have to go. I never really thought any of the natural horsemanship was any good, certainly did'nt believe it could change a horse, but within 45 minutes of her working with the horse, he had turned into a puppy dog and has rarely gone up since. Am very impressed and has really changed the way I handle my horses, am also very keen to bring up my youngster in this way.
I know alot of people on here don't really like the natural horsemanship but would really like to know why and if anyone has had experiences good or bad in using these methods? I am talking about behaviour only.

 

[samp]

If it works then who can knock it. May consider trying one for my mare - not good to load and if scared, unsure, not wanting to work will also rear

 

[Blackhawk]

I think different things work for different horses. I also believe that if you have common sense it's a lot better for your horse.

My TB reared, bucked, and generally went ballistic if anyone went near him. Through basic things like understanding his body language and spending time getting to know him better he is now the most laid back horse I've ever known. That's what suited him.

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

I had a cert out on my old horse Golly who wouldnt load after he had an accident in the lorry. She turned up and did lots of groundwork with him for about 30minutes, thens he lead him up to the lorry and he walked straight on, then off, then on and ever since has been a darling to load. I couldnt believe it!!
However i sent my other old horse William to them, he was a chronic rearer, and they couldnt do anything with him. Thing is, he didnt rear up there with them and they couldnt get him to repeat the behaviour, yet as soon as he got home he was flipping himself again.

So all in all i so follow it a lot of the time but i think it works better for some horses than others.

 

[AmyMay]

What did they actually do to stop the horse rearing??

I think that everything has it's place - but to be honest good old fashioned common sense is what's needed in lots of instances - and the knowledge of what to do when.

 

[_April_]

Some people don't have common sense and to have people they can get help from is a good thing.

I'm always open to new ideas but I would investigate first to make sure it's not a con!

 

[flyingfeet]

Well IMHO the MR / KM / RM methods are well worth looking in to.

Common sense maybe, but amazing how many people are lacking it; and have terrible body language with their horses.

I still see people beating their horses and wondering why it won't co-operate.

We have bought many horses that the owner wouldn't even lead out (bought them 'cos they were cheap!!). It strikes me that there are heck of a lot of people than cannot properly handle their horses.

 

[_April_]

I've just started to watch the Parelli DVD's that a friend lent to me.

I'm surprised to see how much of it really is just common sense and uses things that I was taught at PC.
I can see why it would be useful for someone who was completely new to horses and who doesn't have the opportunities that I had - on hand advice from my mum and PC instructors.

I'm quite enjoying it and will probably pick some things out to try.

 

[Forget_Me_Not]

How can any body involved with horses not agree with natural horseman ship?!

At the end of the day a horse is a horse, and they are very very good at being horses since they have been around for 1000s and 1000s of years, unlike us humans.

I think if people stoped trying to make horses respond like humans then they would get so much more out of there horse involement.

I have just brought a gelding known to buck when mounted. The people who owned him are now sueing because they can. This horse is responding how he knows best. Giving he was never backed, simply riden! The poor man cant even lead hes so green.

I do wonder why so many horses put up with people like those who dont agree with natural horsemanship simply because they cant give a little time to understand horses who they "love".

I hope to become a susseful natural horsemanship trainer so i wont bore you with the info i could on this topic!!

 

[SirenaXVI]

[ QUOTE ]
Common sense maybe, but amazing how many people are lacking it; and have terrible body language with their horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have hit the nail on the head there, like JM7 I feel that KM and MR use good old common sense but what worries me are not the people who have them out to their horses but the people who go to their demos and then try it at home, because they lack basic common sense, this makes it dangerous! Don't even get me started on Parelli

 

[_April_]

I looked at Parelli with a LOT of scepticism...

And yes it is pretty cheesy in parts on the DVD but generally I think it is quite a good common sense approach so far.
Getting your horse to trust you and building confidence is things that everyone should be trying to do anyway but it just gives some extra help.
But then I have only watched a few of the DVDs so I can't really comment yet!

 

[Blackhawk]

FMN, I don't think it's that people don't agree with NH, but rather most competent people feel it is common sense and most things should be how you interact with your horse anyway.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
FMN, I don't think it's that people don't agree with NH, but rather most competent people feel it is common sense and most things should be how you interact with your horse anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hit the nail on the head!!

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

I saw Kelly Marks do an exhibition show once & it appeared quite good. I saw her load a really difficult horse which was rearing & really performing. She put down virtually every other method of working with a horse. She used the 'Be Nice' Pat Parelli halter to do it. Be Nice, like hell, you should have seen the big divot in the horses nose at the end of it. Painless...like hell. The halter cons onlookers into believing it's really gentle because it looks gentle but I assure you it is anything but.

They sell the halter with a video to show you how to use it properly, Kelly marks knows how to use it & I saw the damage it caused..... Some people may like these methods, I do not.

This post may not be popular with some people but these are my views. Use common sense, time & patience & things will normally go well with you & your horse.

 

[SirenaXVI]

[ QUOTE ]
This post may not be popular with some people but these are my views

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you will find that your views are more popular than you think! I also happen to know that they 'vet' the horses that MR uses for his demos, they refused to take one belonging to a friend of mine because it was too wild!

 

[Weezy]

Echo T_Z - common sense goes a LONG way when it comes to animals!

 

[samp]

I do no tlike the be nice halters that have studs in the polls- as you say this is not pleasure but pain. My friends horse kept rearing when led etc and she wanted to get one. I advised her not to as he may have problem with the poll and to get physio. Physio came and thank god she followed my advice the physio said he had a badly rotated atlas and axis (poll). Can you imagine the consequence

 

[bellaboo]

I agree the be nice halters can do more harm than good if not used correctly. My friend was given a 'dually' halter to train her horse with which is a pressure and release rope over the nose, he has great respect for this. The horse in question was being led in a chifney and I dont think things can get more severe than that. If I had'nt seen what this instructor had done I also would think it does no good but she had never seen the horse before and something has obviously worked with him, he also follows her around without needing to be clipped to a lead rope now, something he would never have done before, so I think you have to give it a go to make your own minds up rather than just assuming.

 

[jinglejoys]

"I also happen to know that they 'vet' the horses that MR uses for his demos, they refused to take one belonging to a friend of mine because it was too wild! "
Malaga went for an accessment in Febuary for a "starting demo"
He did not get chosen because he freaked out and to be fair it was the right dissision.Monty has to choose animals that he can help on the night not ones that may take several days to do,people won't sit around watching that long!

 

[AmyMay]

But what did they actually do when the horse went up - how did they stop it???

 

[sleepingdragon10]

[ QUOTE ]
I looked at Parelli with a LOT of scepticism...

And yes it is pretty cheesy in parts on the DVD but generally I think it is quite a good common sense approach so far.
Getting your horse to trust you and building confidence is things that everyone should be trying to do anyway but it just gives some extra help.
But then I have only watched a few of the DVDs so I can't really comment yet!

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly,it is just common sense.
I find Pat Parelli so damn patronising....and annoying into the bargain

That man makes oodles of cash from people who want a quick fix, or want to be part of the latest "trend" in horsemanship. If people really are stupid enough to part with the kind of money he charges for his courses then good luck to him

 

[Oaksflight]

It never really appealed to me but it has worked with my horse. I'm still not all for it, but I am planning on using a NH lady nearby to sort out mine clipping phoebia as they sorted out his loading problem and he'll trot in on his own now.

 

[bellaboo]

To stop the horse rearing they put a 'dually' headcollar on him and was teaching him to respect th handlers space, and that things are more comfortable for him to stay close ( although not in handlers space ). If he walked into her space he would get pushed back out and when he responded he would get a head rub. If he tried to push pass, he would be pulled round sharply and when submissive, be rewarded. He is allowed the space to make a mistake, so not lead with hand right up under his head, if he does make a mistake he must suffer consequences, if he walks happily by you life is good and comfortable for him. He soon decided what was the best option!!!!

 

[Parkranger]

I think we all laugh at some aspects of it but some are very valuable - KM books are excellent although I found MR a bit odd....even though the principles are the same.

There were definately things that we not just common sense but actually went the other way to what I had always believed.....and no, I can't think of an example until I look at the book again! haa haa

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Further to my previous post. They also make alot of this 'Join Up' & the crowd love it how the horse follows the trainer around, shadowing their footsteps, big tumultuous applause. Almost any horse will do this. Ride the horse, get off & walk away and the horse will, follow you. Mine does, is it join up, I don't know, he just does it. I haven't put a name to it & sold it on DVD.

Good Luck to them, very good marketing, for several hundred pounds for books DVD & a rather nasty halter you can cram many years of experience into a DVD & your horse problem will be solved! No it won't, time, patience & experience sorts a problem out.

Anyone noticed how the sale of tennis rackets goes right up when Wimbledon is on...... I don't see many John McEnroes coming through though?

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!

 

[Blackhawk]

I once phoned one of these types and asked for advice. Not full advice mind but a answer to a question that could get me a step in the direction I wanted to go in, and then help me consider getting someone out to help.

Point blank refused to help or talk to me unless I paid for the privilage.

 

[vicijp]

Theres me thinking thats how horses worked anyway.

 

[Parkranger]

[ QUOTE ]
They also make alot of this 'Join Up' & the crowd love it

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting - when I read about it in KM book I thought, wow, I must do that when I get my own horse.

I was schooling about a month ago and I jumped off to get trotting poles set out and let go of Ty. He was stuck to my bottom and even got in the way as he wanted to keep his good eye on me at all times. It was hysterical!! I think we've well and truly joined up without needing to do that.

Pah, who needs join up

 

[riotgirl]

My girl does this while I'm walking around the field picking up the droppings. It actually bloody hurts as she usually treads on my heels as well!

 

[guisbrogal]

I went to a MR and KM demo last night at Bishop Burton and it was excellent. (I have seem KM before). MR told you that the problem would not be totally solved in one session and to be honest who is going to take a horse that goes 'wild' into a round pen with a huge audience around it. H&S would have a fit!

I totally agree that much of it is common sense, which I am sure MR would agree with too. unfortunately a lot of people lack such a thing. I saw very little last night that people could get badly wrong to be honest. I have used NH with Ellie with superb results and I am no expert and have had no training other than to read the books.

I looked at the dually halter and from what I could see it only puts pressure on the poll and nose. Isn't this what a bridle does? I agree it could be used meanly in the wrong hands but then can't anything.

BTW Victress I am not aiming any of these comments at you, I just used the reply option on your message!