Natural Horsemanship...lets give it it's own thread.

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rushyj

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I have noticed many times on here there are posts that get hijacked by other subjects and natural horsemanship is def one of them. So I thought why not give it it's own thread and see what peoples opinions are on it.

Ok my opionion is that it is not possible to have a horse completely natural. You cannot reconstruct the wild conditions. Horses have been changed and domesticated so much now that we need to step in to replace things (ie rugging) that would have been there in the wild.

Also I find (and this is only in my personal experience) that people who have adopted the natural horsemanship way have always been very condecending to my way of dealing with horses. I say live and let live, each to thier own and the whole concept of natural horsemanship is flawed. Horses aren't ridden in the wild all changes start from that one point and the changes require further changes and so on.

Opinions on a post card *hides behind desk* :)
 
I think lots of people would be more open to more natural ideas if the people selling it "and lets face it they do sell it with their products", did not constantly tell you that you were cruel and not one with your horse when you use bridles and saddles. And shoes were not natural even though their horses have sore feet and can not be ridden so prefer to wave a stick around at their horse all day.
Ooops think I shall put a foot in my mouth now, but thats my experience on au naturelle horsemanship folks and their opinions.
I am sure there are NH people out there that are not like this and I am not poo pooing their ideas, I just find the ones I have met think it,s their way or the cruel BHS way.
 
See that is my thinking. There has to be a compromise with it. We had a really bad experience with the horse Binky mentioned in the fly fringe post. He came from a very well respected natural horsemanship (lecturer) home and took us months to get him to a state where he was safe to deal with and comfortable in his own skin.
 
I agree for a separate section .
I must say I find a lot of riders/owners who worship at the altar of Natural Horsemanship are a bit like religious fanatics .Horses MUST be out 24/7 NO shoes NO rugs etc etc.
I would say I try to keep my horses in a natural way in a herd with turnout in fields every day in winter .BUT they have shoes if their feet need them (I have 2xTB 1 Anglo and 1 T/B Iberian. If I don't to a lot of road work the Iberian stays shoeless the Anglo has shoes and 1 T/B has shoes and 1 only fronts.They are all stabled at night in winter they are thin skinned and thin coated and LOVE being stabled where they can all see each other and eat hay in the warm and dry in winter and also so they dont trash the fields and have grass early in the spring,They do live out 24/7 in the summer but will also have a night in if the weather is rubbish. They are rugged approriate to the conditions and they are always turned out as a herd.
But the fanatic Natural Horsemanship would say I am not letting them live naturally.As the OP says WE have adapted horses for our use and they are not all the wooly ponies that can live in this so called natural way!
Gets off soap box and runs away to hide!!!!
 
I think that while there are the likes of the P's, Monty Roberts et al there will always be the element of 'if you don't do it my way you are cruel' and 'you need this equipment at a hugely inflated price to do it with' :rolleyes:

Bella lives in a mixed herd, is unrugged and hasn't seen the inside of a stable since she was 2 days old although she was born in one. I think that is probably about as natural as its going to get. When it comes time to back her I intend to do it myself keeping things as relaxed as possible and taking it slowly. If she needs shoes then she will have them but I'm hoping that her feet stay as strong and healthy as they are at the moment.

Other people can keep their horses how they wish as providing the horse is happy and healthy I don't care if they rug (not over rug) their horse and hang gold tassels off the bridle. Each to their own :D
 
My point exactly. It always makes me laugh when someone has an all natural arab or tb are they not meant to be wandering round sand dunes? not up to thier necks in a muddy field. That is what I mean all the native breeds have been displaced over a few hundred years to the four corners of the world so thousands of years of adapting to thier natural habitat is out of the window. It has to be replaced somehow.
 
It's all about common sense, isn't it? And finding what works for your horse and for you.

I'm not opposed to using NH techniques and think it's interesting to get different perspectives. But I think that sticking rigidly to one technique - NH or traditional or anything else - is generally not sensible where animals are concerned, they are all individuals and need us to tailor our approach to them, which means being flexible and open to using different methods and ideas until you find what works.
 
Oh don't get me on about Monty Roberts!!! Before I start may I say he is an inspirational man who is quite frankly hugely naturally talented with horses, BUT he brought breaking horses gently and nicely in a more european way to the masses of America who mostly still thought backing a horse should be done by tying it to a log, tree or tractor tyre till it was too tired to fight!!! Then as the ultimate sales technique he sold it back to us!!! the man is a genius!
 
Yep I know someone who will only do it NH way and some of the things he does are brilliant but he can not understand why I wont embrace it fully, I choose to pick and mix what works for my horses.
My old mare would laugh in his face and find it all beneath her where as my young newforest quite enjoys it when this person comes and plays with him, and my shettie just ignores him.
I,m not against it at all and it as helped lots of people connect with their horses, but because I choose not to ride and keep my horses in certain ways does not make me ignorant to my horses needs.
 
I think many people who claim to practice NH understand very little about horsemanship. They act as if a few -primarily US- practitioners have invented a new way of treating horses and adopt a completely us & them approach.

40 years ago there were people who kept horses & ponies barefoot, they didn't clip them, feed them hard food or rug them and they kept them in herds. My first pony was like this.

There were people who studied horse behaviour and adapted their methods to suit. One example is Jo Knowles. She is in many senses a Natural Horsewoman. I used to go to her house near Brixworth (kennels) and she always had parts of horses lower legs & heads to help her study the way the horses hoof worked or the way the bit acted. She desensitised youngsters and worked then in a lunging pen, all very NH.

She is also an FBHS, she worked in our PC alongside ex army types, she had everyone's respect, she was a PC instructor.

I think many NH practitioners start out afraid of their horses. A more traditional approach would require them to establish dominance over the horse. Their woolly thinking interprets this as bullying instead of a NATURAL approach for the horse who is in all likelihood seeking reassurance and leadership. Once the horse has found another to be leader it will be submissive. Doesn't matter so much how you do this, personally I will require absolute obedience when I first meet a horse. Thereafter we have a harmonious relationship.

That doesn't mean beating it into submission. Just using the stick to back up the leg and not being afraid to assert your authority.

I really think that the other stick NH types use to criticise 'traditional' methods is when they cite the BHS exam system as not working. I invariably think people who criticise the BHS seem to have had a problem with the exam system personally, or actually know nothing about it. It makes perfect sense and is just a methodology to allow you to handle & manage horse safely & well.


Right, need to go and lay down now.
 
I think it's possible to embrace and respect both (or many) different schools of thought and as is often the case the extremes of many things are not healthy. Having read a fair bit on NH I take some of it on board and some I put down to common sense and some I dismiss. I do the same with the traditional method and have formed an idea of what works for me. Having said that I am a novice, so am always keen to learn and hence why I use the forum, and I think that learning comes from listening to others' opinions which are often different to ones own, which is why I like the general aspect of New Lounge. If there were a NH sub section it may not have enough diverse opinions to generate thoughtful ideas.
I prefer a forum where there is discussion which brings something to the table , which can not always happen if there is not a New Lounge type forum.
In the recent thread which I now realised I hijacked (sorry OP) , I had some pretty acerbic comments made about me which is fine, I just hope people don't ride immediately after making them as ponio might feel their bad vibes.
 
I think NH as a product is completely bull and would never buy into any of it.
However, if you look at a lot of the thinking behind NH it is mostly common sense that us conventional kind use anyway.
I'm old school, and I like the way I do things, the constant NH "our way is the only way" makes me more determined they are some kind of cult!
 
I am in favour of common sense I want my horse to be as happy and chilled as possible but I bought him to ride not just as a field ornament, he is also a warmblood therefore as most horse these days probably wouldn't exist in the wild.

I make sure he is turned out everyday with other horses, in winter he is in overnight and in summer will probably be out 24/7 alot of the time. He is rugged in winter and shoeless and in summer will have front shoes on.

I am not harsh with him and do try to see why he is behaving a certain way but don't practise NH techniques as such.

I think with horses we are all learning and you can take what you like from different schools of thought and discard the rest I also think problems arise when people believe there method is the only way and become fanatical.
 
rushyj said:
I have noticed many times on here there are posts that get hijacked by other subjects and natural horsemanship is def one of them. So I thought why not give it it's own thread and see what peoples opinions are on it.

Ok my opionion is that it is not possible to have a horse completely natural. You cannot reconstruct the wild conditions. Horses have been changed and domesticated so much now that we need to step in to replace things (ie rugging) that would have been there in the wild.

Also I find (and this is only in my personal experience) that people who have adopted the natural horsemanship way have always been very condecending to my way of dealing with horses. I say live and let live, each to thier own and the whole concept of natural horsemanship is flawed. Horses aren't ridden in the wild all changes start from that one point and the changes require further changes and so on.

Opinions on a post card *hides behind desk* :)
Click to expand...


Dear OP

This is my post card :p and my opinions herein:

To start with, my definition of natural horsemanship is to keep one's horse in a manner which is as close to nature as is sensibly possible, including working with him in his language.


The horse hasn't evolved to carry a rider, I do agree, nor to be domesticated. I think if everyone were to be honest, if any of us truly felt that strongly that horses should be kept 100% naturally they wouldn't keep horses, and would be totally okay with horses in the wild being predated in 99% of deaths.

However, if it is a basic given that man has chosen to domesticate and work the horse, it should absolutely not, in my opinion, be an absolute given that therefore the horse's physiological and behavioural needs shouldn't be taken into account and proivided for in the most sympathetic way possible to him. If we can make the best use of our resources to mimick his natural conditions in the wild, and behave around him in a language he would use himself, whilst still getting our "value" out of the transaction, we are, IMO, following the path which does least harm.

Horses, like many other things, are one HUGE balancing act. its all about where on the scale your pendulum sits between providing everything your horse wants & needs, vs everything you want & need from your horse.

... which incidentally I believed until I realised that there is another dimension in this equasion, which is that if we don't meet any of our horse's needs, if our pendulum is stuck far over to the man's wants & needs side, it contradicts itself, because the horse won't/can't perform what man wants & needs if his own needs aren't taken into account somewhat.

Lots of other issues related to this subject, including the ethics of veterinary intervention, and i haven't even begun on the scale of how to train your horse. But for now my essay is long enough, so i'll stop there! :D
 
RunToEarth said:
I'm old school, and I like the way I do things, the constant NH "our way is the only way" makes me more determined they are some kind of cult!
Click to expand...

This is an outdated argument which does neither side any more favours than the whole "farriers don't know anything about horses VS barefoot trimmers are unqualified & unskilled" arguement. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but in order to understand everything you'd have to look past that (which, in fairness from past threads on here I believe you have done).

Most of us are somewhere in the middle, calling it by different names of NH, common sense or horsemanship. No harm in that. I think most people object to the extremes of anything.
 
For what its worth Kelly Marks says that there is nothing at all natural in tacking up horses and riding them which is why she prefers to call it Intelligent Horsemanship.I am not anti NH at all but not a devotee of anything really other then what works.
 
Naturally said:
To start with, my definition of natural horsemanship is to keep one's horse in a manner which is as close to nature as is sensibly possible, including working with him in his language.


The horse hasn't evolved to carry a rider, I do agree, nor to be domesticated.
Click to expand...

I think it's great that Naturally starts off with a definition of NH. My biggest question is what is NH, why do people think that it is one thing and even that it is the same thing for everyone who practices it and why do we assume it is opposed to some other way of looking after horses?

BTW I think I disagree, I think the horse, unlike the zebra for example, did evolve to be domesticated. Both the horse's main conditions of living (e.g. in a herd, grazing) and its ability to learn and adapt made it idea for domestication, whereas other animals did not take such an evolutionary path, e.g. finding out that zebras lead solitary existences and are very territorial explains why they would not be much use to a nomadic peoples.
 
To play devil's advocate here "against myself" a classic example of pure ignorance and double NH standards.

Some Pillock who used to be at our yard, (you know the type of person who recommends a reactor saddle to a horse owner who schools at 1.30m and hunts all day jumping everything in site and then suggests a peewee bit for good measure!!! Falls of a pony jumping then immediately (with teeth a chattering) gets the lunge line and a stick with a bag tied to the end of it to resolve the situation....

Then a couple of days ago when she found out my heavweight hunter had cut his leg really badly while turned out.... damanded to know what he was doing in a field if he was showing this season?!?!?!?! a bit of consistancy needed.
 
RunToEarth said:
I think NH as a product is completely bull and would never buy into any of it.
However, if you look at a lot of the thinking behind NH it is mostly common sense that us conventional kind use anyway.
I'm old school, and I like the way I do things, the constant NH "our way is the only way" makes me more determined they are some kind of cult!
Click to expand...


Summed my thoughts up beautifully! Saved me writing a reply lol.
I think the whole 'deep thinking' about horses and their life style, comparing them to other non-domestic animals, wild horses, etc really is just too much thought and effort put into something which really isn't that complex or difficult with a bit of common sense and knowledge put into play.
My thoughts on natural horsemanship may have been viewed as somewhat negatively on the other post mentioned though. [Which for the record...no I didn't ride. I in fact had a fine spending session at the tack shop buying for our [hogged] show cob who will in fact be resembling a very pampered poodle for his show next week!]

At the end of the day, I love the horses and they don't seem to loathe or detest me, in fact quite the opposite! So am not too worried about the whole thing tbh. :)
 
good post :-)

I think the good thing about natural horsemanship is that it gets everyone thinking about what they're doing, so that they decide for themselves what isright or wrong for them, whihc is great - the more learning we do the better!

However, i think the problem lies when people just are told somehthing is 'intelligent' horsemanship, or Natural horsemanship or whatever, and because it is under another (nicer) name than normal and is different assume it is absolutely right and everyone else is wrong. Prime example: 'When i do join up i'm being natural becuase i'm communicating with my horse in his own language'. OK, yes horses do use SOME of the same movements people do when they do join up (e.g. squaring up to get them to move away, dropping shoulder and gaze etc) - however I'd be bloody worried if I EVER saw any of our horses in the field effectively 'chasing'/moving another for even a fraction of the time that join up goes on for. They might chase another horse out of thier vicinity but certainly shouldn't be moving them about the field at will for any length of time until that horse is submissive...It doesn't happen in tame herds of horses and it doens't happen in the wild, but it comes under the title 'intelligent' so it must be nice.

Second prime example : the friendly game. Nice name and the lovely 'natural' parellis say it's what a mare does with a foal - so therefore we can ignore the fact that the horse is only standing still becuase of the pressure halter, not becuase of trust at all - and that the parelli followers say to keep stroking it with a stick(!) until it relaxes then remove the stick - how does that even make sense?! OK so mares might lick their foals comfortingly but they certainly won't start putting pressure on the foal's head if it dares to move?!

I think it's great to have any talk through a variety of schools of thought and stuff, but it is so frustrating when people who follow it get all evangelical without thinking about their own contradictions - we all need to keep thinking, that's all.... i should prob hide behind my desk now i think!! :-)
 
Tamzinf may i say fantastically put when you think of the millions that have been made through all these styles it is just a gloryfied pr and money making stunt now while losing the essence of what was being said.
 
I think the problem is that people think that to be classed as Natural Horsemanship the way you keep your horses is 'fixed'. I class myself as NH, to me it means that I keep my horses as natural as possible, they live out 24/7 if they can. We have several finer horses that haven't coped with the winter and so they came in at night, the ones that needed rugging (including a couple of the m&ms) were rugged, I currently have a Welsh A in with a broken jaw accompanied by his M&M friend. They are all barefoot at the moment but a couple cannot be ridden out without shoes and so will be shod when we are finally able to ride again (the arrival of 3 small foster children last year makes it impossible for now). I use a mixture of pressure halters, a dually and standard headcollars depending on who I am working with and what I am doing. I don't like join up, I love pressure and release, I never hit my horses in any circumstances, I feed cereal based feed to those who need it, forage based to those that don't. I use a farrier to care for their feet, used to use a trimmer with the ponies 'til she nearly blinded a youngster swinging a knotted lead rope around his head in some strange manouvre to teach him to stand whilst she did his feet!

Basically, all the so called IH/NH things that are taught today are versions of the methods used by traditional horsemen years ago, it was standard stuff that got forgotten as all the fads came in other than by those who don't follow fashion. I do not ever remember horses having the behavioural problems that are so apparent in massive numbers today and I genuinely believe that, as horse people, many of us have been lured away from the 'old ways' in the name of kindeness to the horse. We have ended up with generations of horses that don't have a clue who is in charge and so behave in a manner that we find unacceptable but is just normal to them, trying to take control. I love my horses and I treat them kindly BUT they are not allowed to be bad mannered, in return I keep them as naturally as I am able taking into account their individual needs. When I think back to how I was as a kid, taking in and breaking/schooling problem ponies and never laying a hand on one of them in anger compared to what I DON'T know today I am ashamed.

If you got to the end of this then I will buy you a large one! Not even sure what my point is really but I think I agree that NH has become all about making money rather than about making the lives of horses better!
 
For me, NH type stuff is like going back to my childhood, and being a child at heart despite my great age, it suits me fine. Barefoot horses (our ponies were hardly ever shod), bitless (as in hooning around on the ponies using just a headcollar) treeless saddles (we rode with just saddle pads or bareback everywhere). Spending hours in the fields as a child playing with the ponies, setting up little courses of things for them to do or just hanging out and watching them interact with each other. In the winter we fed straights and rugged only if vital. So when Intelligent Horsemanship appeared I recognised it straight away.....I knew this!....I'd learned it already, how to create a bond with your horse etc, it was all there under the layers of the more formal horsemanship learning I'd had in my 20's and 30's. I never felt comfortable with the BHS style, there was, for me, no freedom of thought, no thinking outside the box. I'm sure for a lot of people it gave them security to know they were doing things the 'right' way, and I'm not knocking that, but whips, spurs, harsh bits, keeping horses stabled endlessly, none of it was ever for me, even though I went along with it for a while to conform and fit in. And what a miserable time that was.

So here I am back to being a child, enjoying my horses. I'm not knocking Monty, oh, except to I wish I'd thought of what he's doing first!!
 
Actually I have seen one horse do join up with another in a tame herd.It was really interesting.Mine (who was a Highland) was turned out with a couple of mares and a young gelding who was part exmoor.He was a cocky little so and so and marched up to mine to say Listen, there is one boss here mate, and thats me! Mine said You think so do you! Then they kicked sh*t* out of each other (neither had shoes on) for a few minutes.Mine won and he sent the other one away! Everytime he tried to creep back, making himself look very small,mine simply sent him away and sometimes he would just look at him and move him on i.e Why are you just standing still MOVE from quite some distance away, just by a look and a movement of his head.It was fascinating and went on for quite some time.They were the best of friends later.I have never attempted to do join up with mine as I am not fully convinced of the use of doing this in controlled circumstances.Or simply perhaps with my horses. My much respected NH instructor does do it from time to time.She is very good. Doesn't stick rigidly to any particular school and probably mixes in some traditional stuff as well.She doesn't sell dvds books or anything else either.
 
The very meaning of the word "natural" is so ambiguous that it causes many people to have completely different perceptions of it. While horses are domesticated, I think that it is our duty to respect the species on its own right, as expecting horses to adapt and cope with the way that humans live, because we think it's out Gid-given right, is neither fair nor justified. It is our responsibility to try to communicate with horses in a way that they understand. They are completely different from us: they are prey animals who act primarily on instinct, who are nervous by nature and who will run away from danger. They are also by cooperative by nature. Humans, on the other hand, are predators, tend to fight danger, dominating and tend to think before we act. It is therefore unreasonable for us to expect them to think and behave as we do, as their brains are simpy wired too differently. This doesn't make us betetr than them: we ask to ride them, stable them, tack and rug them up, feed them unnatural food of our chosen quantities ... thus it is up to us to treat the horse as well as we can, which means in a way they best understand, which means to communicate "naturally" - aka in the horse's own language!
We all try to train and keep our horses using the most effective methods, and in this day and age it is simply no longer acceptable to use force and predatory aggression to get what the rider wants. By choice, people prefer methods that they have always used, but these are certainly not effective and not fair on the horse. Those who look down their nose at "NH" and see it as being "fluffy" and weak - open your eyes, get your head out of your own bottom and start developing a better understanding of horses! Why choose methods which make the horse's life more difficult, frightening, stressful and confusing, when you can use his own language and have a closer, more enjoyable and easier relationship with him?

How, may I ask, is it unreasonable for a rider to try keep & train their horse as millions of years of evolution intended?
 
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