Natural horsemanship. Where to start?

R_Owen

R_Owen

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As some of you may remember I've recently purchased a beautiful 3 year old warm blood x. Although he's backed due to his age, he can't do much ridden work. Therefore I was considering doing some natural horsemanship with him. I thought this may increase our bond and help with his overall education. I've not done any natural horse ship before.

I've been watching clinton Anderson this week something's I'm inmpressed with, other things not so much. I'm not a big fan of parelli.

I don't have access to a school or a round pen. I've successful brought on two 3 year olds before without facilities although it can be challenging at times. My field is on a slope, there is some flat land around. But it's not fenced in.

If anyone could point me in the right direction of some good books/ DVDs. To help me begin. I would appreciate it.

Thanks x
 
I've not really done much natural horsemanship stuff, but would definitely recommend Mark Rashid's books. They're more common (horse!) sense than all the buy a rope/buy a dvd/buy a starter pack stuff, but lots of great ideas and thoughts told in an easy to digest, entertaining way. A Good Horse is Never a Bad Colour, Horses Never Lie and Whole Heart, Whole Horse are great.

While there aren't any set exercises, you'll learn a lot without realising that you are!

Really changed my outlook on dealing with my very nervy Welsh D.
 
Check out Warwick Schiller on You Tube. Lots of free videos, then if you like him there are more in depth training videos on his web site, which you can subscribe to monthly. I find him very easy to understand and follow through. Very accessible trainer who answers questions and tries to resolve problems through his facebook page.https://www.facebook.com/groups/149136071900446/?fref=ts
 
Clinton Anderson is one of the worse he is. Mr 'Tie it to a post in the hot sun for three hours with no water until it learns its lesson' and hot sun in Australia is HOT sun. I have seen video where a horse slipped and fell hard in a deep bit of sand school and he walked over, swore the horse was faking (it was winded) and kicked it VERY hard in the belly. He is not a nice person and a very poor role model. There is little to choose between him and Pat Parelli in terms of horse abuse.

OTOH, as said above, Mark Rashid is wonderful and, as stated you will learn a lot without realising it. Never dismiss Mark's books as a collection of stories!

The UK trainer I really rate is Ben Hart, all positive training, no longer clicker based and frankly, what he doesn't know ain't worth knowing. However, you do need a degree of intellect and intelligence to benefit, he isn't for those wanting a quick fix and a 'yahoo-cowboy' approach. http://www.hartshorsemanship.com/
 
Thank you. Really helpful. Ladyinred that's awful I've not come across any of those videos yet. The first one a saw seemed ok but the more I've seen the worse they seem to get. I completely agree with you when it comes to parelli. I don't have any issues with my horse he's a beautiful boy, very genuine, just a nice person and I don't want to do anything that would change this. Just looking for something fun that we can do on the ground that would also help in his education.

So far I've just spend a lot of time grooming him and picking up his feet as he wasn't so keen on them being cleaned.

Thank you all. I will take a look at your suggestions. I'm just looking to enjoy spending time with my boy, bringing him on nice and slow with a good positive approach to training.
 
I would also recommend checking out Warwick Schiller, seems to me to be much more training that can relate to performance horses... Not just 'carrot stick' stuff.
 
Have a look at anything by Michael Peace. He should have a website?? I watched a demmo of his a few years ago and he is excellent - very practically based and no hype. His "Think Equus" philosophy is very helpful and he has a lot of practical, and sensible, advice to give.

Also, if you feel you need someone to work alongside you and your horse, I personally would look for an "Intelligent Horsemanship" practitioner as they are used to looking at problem situations and working with the horse and rider together, to find a solution.

Monty Roberts?? Have seen a few TV things with him........ not sure how I felt about it TBH because IMO he's so far up himself he's gonna need a satnav if he ever wants to see the light of day again; and personally I find that sort of in-your-face approach way too distracting. Give me Michael Peace's quiet efficiency every time - he really is a true horseman and possesses great empathy and wisdom, and his methods are easy to understand and put into practice.

Parelli? A big no-no for me; its not just the hype surrounding it, and the endless supply of money that its devotees are expected to produce in order to progress up to the next "level" - there have been some awful "demo's" of them doing dreadful stuff with some poor horses on You-Tube and FB, far too much for it to be a one-off or isolated incidents. Tried to watch it with an open mind, but in the end it just made me feel sick. I knew someone who was liveried at a yard I was at, she had a lovely young horse which was just totally ruined because she'd done Parelli with it. It patently wasn't the right approach for that particular horse, but her "instructor"'s response to Parelli not being right, was just to recommend she go back through the "stages" again and again. Luckily the horse was sold on and eventually ended up in the right hands, but it could have gone way too badly wrong.

Oh dear, there'll probably be a backlash from the Parelli fan-club now because of what I've just said!! Sorry OP...........
 
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I like Micheal Peace, and bits of Monty and Kelly, I'm no expert, not even close, but I do tons and tons of groundwork with my mare, and stupid stuff like playing with tarps, brollies, getting her to follow me between poles set in tight corners, take her to the supermarket, round the skate park, all in hand, and she follows me pretty much anywhere now without hesitation, and she gets braver and braver when I'm riding her the more groundwork we do
 
I have a five year old Hackney gelding that is completely and utterly boystrous. He was bottle fed as the mare rejected him at birth and therefore I have had people mark him as 'mental'. He doesn't like multiple people fussing over him and currently he only lets me groom and ride him. He has had a pretty rough start as I rescued him from a home that starved him. I would love to do some natural work with him as all else has failed. I don't know where to start however.
 
Hello, I'm a brand new forum member, and it seems this would be a good post for me to write me first message on!

The term 'natural horsemanship' is a bit of an odd term and quite vague, of course there are some parts of good traditional horsemanship that draw on the horses 'natural' instincts, and some parts of NH that are not 'natural' at all.

So I think it depends what sort of think you are after. If your horse is well behaved, and you are looking for something else to do with him to get him brave, and to help him 'learn to learn' and settle into a happy working pattern, you might like the idea of horse agility - which isn't really 'natural horsemanship' at all but can give some structure and form to your groundwork sessions and includes some things that are genuinely very useful (like standing still to be mounted from both sides, leading over bridges etc) as well as somethings that are a bit more....imaginative! It also doesn't cost the earth to join in as many horse agility people seem to offer group or individual sessions at reasonable rates.

Another option might be to teach him to longline, and to learn to do it yourself. You have much, much more variety in terms of the things you can do than you do on the lunge - you can longline your way through dressage tests, over grids of showjumps, through obstacle courses, you can do indirect transitions and transitions within the pace, lateral work, pole work, you name it ..... of course, you do have to build up to that stuff and you do have to have someone experienced to help you learn and to introduce the longlines in a safe way. The horse is then also learning things that will make them feel less green when you come to do more ridden work, like rhythm, and rein aids. If this is your cup of tea, an intelligent horsemanship recommended associate would be the way to go. I am biased because I am one, but there will be someone local to you and many are BHS qualified as well, and are not novelty cowboys in any sense! (to be clear, I am not working as an RA at the moment because I am completing a PhD, so this isn't a thread for me to get work!) IHRA's are also good problem solvers and use a range of techniques to try to find the solution that is easiest for the horse to get back on the right track - this might involve drawing on some good old traditional horsemanship as well as being open to new ideas.

If you are 'into' getting your horse to be able to do some circus type tricks like lunge without a rope on, stand on a podium etc, then Parelli offers a level-based system with DVD and forum support as well as instructors all over the country. The system has its critics (as you may have picked up on!) and I am not linked to it in any way, but it seems to help some people get along much better with their horses and find a real 'club' to be part of.

I've heard good things about Richard Maxwell and I am looking forward to going for a lesson with him when my horse is recovered from his surgery.

A friend of mine is going for a lesson with Emma Massingale and I have heard good things about her demos and watched her Island Project with interest, she seems to be one to watch at the moment!

Books: Kelly Marks books really do make things simple, pragmatic and also quite witty and fun to read. But I would say that, I am pretty biased, Kelly has been a massive support to me (just putting it out on the table!)

And, is it too cheeky to add, that I have just published my first book myself?! It's called Globetrotting and looks at horse training practises in different parts of the world. It includes lots of horse training stories, as well as some discussion and musings about the concepts that underpin horse training - such as negative reinforcement as raised by fburton above.

Hope some of this helps you find what you are looking for with your boy, good luck x
 
fburton said:
A pretty good (imo) critique of "Natural" here...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/2353...f+training+-+natural+or+not-+-+Catherine+Bell
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Nice article :)

OP - horsemanship is horsemanship, I don't think it needs a label. I'm fairly uncomfortable with a lot of what some of the 'natural horsemanship' trainers get up to, especially the likes of Clinton Anderson and Parelli. I'm also not that keen on Monty Roberts (it seems to be more about him, and he does make some fairly sweeping statements), although I do think there's a lot of sense in what Kelly Marks does as she does seem to be more about the horse, so her books are well worth reading. I have also always thought that the principle of join up seems fundamentally flawed, and illogical - not the results necessarily, but the reasons given for the results. Probably why I like that article - it agrees with me :) I think it can actually be worth watching/reading the trainers that people don't like as well - as then you can also form your own opinions.

I've always liked Mark Rashid's books, and went and watched a clinic he was doing this year and really rate his approach. I've not seen much of Warwick Schiller (you tube) but what I have seen looks interesting. Also 'True Horsemanship through Feel' (Bill Dorrance). Not 'natural' horsemanship per se, but 'Horse Training in-Hand' by Ellen Schuthof-Lesmeister is also worth reading in my opinion, as is Oliver Hilberger's 'Schooling Exercises in-hand' - it's all still groundwork ;)

Just keep your eyes open and your brain engaged, don't get stuck on one particular 'method' and listen to your horse - I just keep thinking 'how is this helping MY horse?' and if I don't think it is, then we don't do it :)
 
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Faracat said:
FB - is there a training book or method that you would recommend?
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The 'method' -- if you can call it a method -- that I favour could be summed up by the slightly ghastly word "behaviourism" or the rather nicer phrase "learning theory". It makes objective sense, and most importantly it works. It allows one to understand how any animal learns and therefore how to teach them. Learning theory is essential knowledge, but an understanding of the motivators, instincts and capabilities specific to horses is also very important.

And, of course, knowledge needs to be refined and honed through experience. Deep learning is only gained by doing and watching and reflecting - actually working with horses.

As far as books go (which is only so far), no single book covers everything. However, here are some I like which cover the basics and help the reader to develop an understanding of why horses do what they do and how you can use this knowledge yourself:

"The Horse Behaviour Handbook" or "Horse Behaviour Exposed" by Abigail Hogg.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horse-Behaviour-Handbook-Abigail-Hogg/dp/071531467X
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horse-Behaviour-Handbook-Abigail-Hogg/dp/071531467X

"BHS Book of the Natural Horse" by Sarah Widdicombe.

www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Natural-Horse-Sarah-Widdicombe/dp/0715324969

"The Art and Science of Clicker Training for Horses" by Ben Hart, if you're interested in pursuing approaches that put more emphasis on positive reinforcement (not everyone does!).

www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Clicker-Training-Horses-Understanding/dp/0285638246

"Perfect Manners", "Perfect Confidence" and "Perfect Partners" by Kelly Marks are all good, practical books.

I liked what Mark Rashid was doing when I saw him in action and had opportunities to talk with him 15 years or more ago. At that time he sought to distance himself from the Natural Horsemanship label despite people putting him in that general category. I'm afraid I haven't kept up with him, so can't be sure if I would still recommend his methods. However, he had excellent 'feel' and he won't have lost that. His books are very readable and contain a lot of wisdom. I personally liked "Horses Never Lie" the best because it provided a commonsense alternative/antidote to the prevailing (in NH circles anyway) dominance-based paradigm.

Any books by Lucy Rees (no longer in print, but still obtainable) are highly recommended.

If you want some harder science around training (and not everyone does!), "Equitation Science" by Paul McGreevy and Andrew McLean would be my current choice.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Equitation-Science-Paul-McGreevy/dp/1405189053

These are off the top of my head. No doubt I will have missed some good'uns. Hope this helps.
 
fburton said:
"The Art and Science of Clicker Training for Horses" by Ben Hart, if you're interested in pursuing approaches that put more emphasis on positive reinforcement (not everyone does!).

www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Clicker-Training-Horses-Understanding/dp/0285638246

"Perfect Manners", "Perfect Confidence" and "Perfect Partners" by Kelly Marks are all good, practical books.
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I would definately recommend these. I don't use clicker training but Ben Hart's book is still a really good read for thinking about some of the behaviour around training and the "science" side of things. Kelly's books (especially Perfect Manners) is very practical and perfect for getting started on some handling and groundwork with a new horse. I was lucky enough to win a place on the IH Horse Psychology course with Kelly and really like her approach.

I really like Monty Roberts myself, having met him personally in a more one to one setting I think it is important to realise when watching his demo's etc that 1. He is over 80 now (and IMO older people can get a bit prone to generalisations, telling the same story repeatedly etc) and 2. He was bought up doing demos in America from a very young age and his presentation style has been shaped by that - it is a bit OTT and "how amazing am I". I tend to ignore that and just watch what he is actually doing.
 
laura_nash said:
I tend to ignore that and just watch what he is actually doing.
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Actually, this is good advice for all such demos, or videos of demos - turn off the sound, don't listen to what is being said, and concentrate on what's happening. Sometimes the commentary and reality don't match, and sometimes the explanations are off-kilter despite sounding very plausible.
 
laura_nash said:
I tend to ignore that and just watch what he is actually doing.
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That's one of the things that bugs me - when I've been watching there's a lot more being done with the horse then is being explained, so someone just listening rather than actually watching for the detail wouldn't get the full picture. But then maybe that's not his fault. And it's definitely not just him either! :)
 
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