Natural horsemanship ....

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K95

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Anyone here into any natural horsemanship stuff?

The only ‘big names’ I know of as such are pat parelli, Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks.

I’m considering whether to start using it on one or both of my horses but when I’ve tried to research online I tend to just get people arguing the point that one is good and the other is bad etc without it really being clear what the similarities and differences are within the methods.

I don’t want to flit between different methods obviously so looking to decide on one to really focus on.

So just looking in advice for people who’ve tried one or multiple methods (from those 3 or other methods)

Now we’ve got this quarantine and I’m out of a job I’ve lots of time to focus on groundwork!
 
I'm not an avid fan of anyone in particular - I just use exercises that I think apply to my horse(s). You don't need to follow it in a cult-like fashion and do everything by one person and one person only. You should know what style will suit your horse best and what sort of exercises he might benefit from.

You'll find questionable stuff from Pat, Linda, and probably Warwick (Schiller) if you look hard enough. The only name I haven't seen slung through mud is Kelly's. I've liked some of Richard Maxwell's stuff too but don't know as much about his style as the others.

You need to figure out what you actually want to achieve rather than just going for it.
 
I find some of the methods work when you have behaviour or nervousness issues, but I really don't see the point of chasing a well established horse around with a stick, I find it confuses a lot of older well trained horses and have seen a fair few pretty messed up, I would rather just do ground work where you teach the horse to what you do on board but from the ground like all the lateral movements, even reversing around poles and a bit of desensitization with certain objects can be beneficial to most horses.
 
With my ex racer I don’t know whether to try anything, just starting to bring him back into work with in hand and lunging so would be backwards if I started desensitising him to whips (which I know is in parelli Method not sure of others)

My other is 3 and untouched, a little nervous, so for him it would more be bonding and trust to make breaking him in easier in the future. A few people have suggested I try join up with him but again others tell me it’s the worst thing I could do!
 
I think you need to read and watch a lot from different trainers and find what fits for you.

The whole "natural" label is a personal bugbear. There is good horsemanship and, well, not so good horsemanship.

Off the top of my head

Tom Dorrance
Bill Dorrance
Ray Hunt
Buck Brannanman
Mark Rashid
John Lyons

All have excellent books

Warwick Schiller has an online subscription service for videos and training paths.

Joe Midgely is in the UK but he trained with Chris Cox. He also has online videos

Richard Maxwell has an online video subscription service too.

I personally do not rate (cannot stand) the Parellis, Monty Robert's or Clinton Anderson.

I'd recommend reading and watching as much as you can. Starting any sort of training without knowing the whys and hows can cause a lot of problems.
 
TPO said:
I think you need to read and watch a lot from different trainers and find what fits for you.

The whole "natural" label is a personal bugbear. There is good horsemanship and, well, not so good horsemanship.

Off the top of my head

Tom Dorrance
Bill Dorrance
Ray Hunt
Buck Brannanman
Mark Rashid
John Lyons

All have excellent books

Warwick Schiller has an online subscription service for videos and training paths.

Joe Midgely is in the UK but he trained with Chris Cox. He also has online videos

Richard Maxwell has an online video subscription service too.

I personally do not rate (cannot stand) the Parellis, Monty Robert's or Clinton Anderson.

I'd recommend reading and watching as much as you can. Starting any sort of training without knowing the whys and hows can cause a lot of problems.
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Definitely not going to start any without reading into a few methods deeper - I’ve just found it a minefield so far! Thanks I’ll have a look through those you’ve mentioned tonight :)
 
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Agree with above poster that you need to watch, observe, mark & learn - "Natural Horsemanship" is a valuable tool but there are an awful lot of charlatans and con-artists out there unfortunately, who charge stoopid-money for their workshops and who have the potential to do your horse far more harm than good and empty your bank balance at a rate of knots in the process!

I unfortunately saw a young horse ruined by the Parelli method; my horse was liveried with hers at the time, and she was doing the Parelli "stages" as a visiting Parelli instructor was coming to the yard at that time. Neither she nor her youngster were benefitting from it, but she was somehow persuaded to part with more money on a regular basis, and was told that if the horse wasn't understanding the concepts then all she needed to do was just go back to the beginning all over again! You couldn't really make that up could you!! Yet this is exactly what she did! In the end she realised that she and her horse were just not suited and she sold him on. Hopefully he ended up with someone who could deal with him.

I went to see a youngster that had been trained by someone who'd bigged themselves up as a Natural Horsemanship "consultant". I'd seen on YouTube a video of this particular horse in the May of that year, it was beside the mounting block and didn't really want to play ball and come alongside and it took a while for the rider to get up top. I went to see this same horse (hoping the mounting situation would be sorted, or on the way to being) in the August of the same year. It was still hopping around like a frog on hot bricks. I wasn't impressed!

Having said this, I DO very much respect the "Think Equus" philosophy of Michael Peace - I've watched Michael give a demmo and was very impressed by his quiet efficiency and way of doing things, and his common-sense approach to problems like napping, loading, etc. Also I've been to a Vanessa Bee (Horse Agility) event and was hugely impressed by her; as well as Monty Roberts at a couple of his workshops.

I think the right approach will vary with each individual horse & rider partnership; and that sometimes a mixture of approaches will sometimes be of benefit; a bit of a "pick and mix" approach is what will possibly work best, not slavishly following the dictat of any particular mindset but choosing and adapting whatever method might suit the horse and rider combination the best.
 
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Interesting that you’ve suggested a little pick and mix - as previous posts I’ve seen suggest that you must stick to one method and one only to save messing up and confusing the horse - although I have taken this with a pinch of salt as it was clear those saying it were very much cult following their favourite
 
There's nothing new under the sun ?

Some may parcel it up as if they have discovered the wheel but that's generally not the case.

It's about finding what makes sense to you and your horse.

It would be worth reading Lucy Rees books too. They aren't training manuals/philosophies but an insight into horse behaviour. Once you understand why horses do what they do it's easier to think through why certain things might work and why others might not.

The Mark Rashid "No horse is a bad colour" series of books might help with understanding why horses do what they do, react how they do and how we can give the wrong signals and ask the wrong way. They arent training manuals either; they are stories of his lessons learnt.

Once the virus has ended it might be worth finding local trainers and if you can watch them work/demos before getting them out to you and your horses. There's rarely a substitute for first hand experience with timing and positioning
 
Not natural horsemanship but highly recommend looking into Andrew McLean’s work on using learning theory to train horses. He has a number of excellent books and you can hear him speak on various YouTube videos.

I restarted my ex racehorse using his methods last year and I’ll never even look at another method. It is the most stress free way I’ve ever seen to train and ride. There is no emotion involved, no chasing your horse in a circle and no needing to develop a magical bond with your horse to make things work. It’s very logical and easy to follow along. Has made me a much better horsewoman.
 
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LiquidMetal said:
Not natural horsemanship but highly recommend looking into Andrew McLean’s work on using learning theory to train horses. He has a number of excellent books and you can hear him speak on various YouTube videos.

I restarted my ex racehorse using his methods last year and I’ll never even look at another method. It is the most stress free way I’ve ever seen to train and ride. There is no emotion involved, no chasing your horse in a circle and no needing to develop a magical bond with your horse to make things work. It’s very logical and easy to follow along. Has made me a much better horsewoman.
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Thanks! Just having a look at a few of his videos now. I like his video regarding not training horses to follow our feet - totally makes sense which is a good start - other methods I've questioned the reasoning behind some things. I'll definitely look into him further I think :)
 
K95 said:
Thanks! Just having a look at a few of his videos now. I like his video regarding not training horses to follow our feet - totally makes sense which is a good start - other methods I've questioned the reasoning behind some things. I'll definitely look into him further I think :)
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If you look up his website, Equitation Science International, there is a variety of resources. They have a good YouTube channel also to introduce you to concepts. For the nitty gritty how-to stuff, the book Academic Horse Training is excellent. I’ve read all his books multiple times. So many light bulb moments for me!
 
A lot of people come to grief trying to learn Natural horsemanship without experienced supervision. The tricky bit is for the humans to learn how precise and crucial their body language and positioning are for the horse to understand what he is expected to do. i used to practice with my older very sane horse who I knew would not get upset if I was less than clear and only when I felt I knew what I was doing would I try it with my youngster. If you can make the whole process into a game for you and the horse to play together in a relaxed manner you are unlikely to go far wrong. I mixed a lot of different methods with no problems but found that BHS type lunge work and natural horsemanship work in halter and long rope with send aways and hindquarter disengagement for stops and changes of reins did confuse the horse if mixed before well established.
 
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Firstly the “NH” sort of trainers mentioned above don’t chase a horse around with a stick, Just doing that would be pointless and the horse not learn anything from it.

from what I’ve learnt from groundwork, your best off picking one trainer, and following their exercises through in the order they are meant to be done. Picking up bits here and there off YouTube isn’t so helpful.
 
It doest always have to be a big name. I saw a rea;y lovely video on long reining the other day. I'm not sure it would come under natural horsemanship, but it was GOOD horsemanship and very easy to follow and well explained. I can link it if anyone is interested.
 
Leo Walker said:
It doest always have to be a big name. I saw a rea;y lovely video on long reining the other day. I'm not sure it would come under natural horsemanship, but it was GOOD horsemanship and very easy to follow and well explained. I can link it if anyone is interested.
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Definitely would like a link! Thanks.
I know I originally said natural horsemanship but yeah I’m not hell bent on it being natural as such - just interesting to see the different methods
 
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K95 said:
Interesting that you’ve suggested a little pick and mix - as previous posts I’ve seen suggest that you must stick to one method and one only to save messing up and confusing the horse - although I have taken this with a pinch of salt as it was clear those saying it were very much cult following their favourite
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Well this is basically what my trainer/mentor does. Rather than follow one method, she prefers to stand back and looks and watches what is being done under the "natural horsemanship" banner as a whole, and then if she deems a method appropriate to a particular horse & rider situation, she will consider employing it. Which isn't the same thing as trying everything that's around in order to see what works, and totally confusing the horse in the process.

Sometimes: the more classical equitation route is far more preferable for some situations, sometimes not.

Think NH can be a good servant but a bad master if you slavishly follow one method even though that is patently not working in a situation.
 
I was fortunate enough to meet and do some work with Monty Roberts. I did learn a lot from him, but I also learned that no all horses are the same, so you often need to adapt and mix a few techniques together to see what works.

The NH way of working with and backing youngsters works a lot better than the way we used to do it many years ago.
 
Ah, OK. :)

In that case I'm very interested (if you have the time or inclination) to know more about why you prefer NH methods for backing compared to say the traditional BHS way? It's probably also wise of me to ask which specific NH trainer's methods you like as they do vary. :)

So many times people say that NH methods are better than 'old methods', but when they explain more, the 'old methods' they refer to are rough cowboy ways from the US, which aren't really the same as the 'old methods' from the UK. I hope that makes sense? :D
 
Meowy Catkin said:
Ah, OK. :)

In that case I'm very interested (if you have the time or inclination) to know more about why you prefer NH methods for backing compared to say the traditional BHS way? It's probably also wise of me to ask which specific NH trainer's methods you like as they do vary. :)

So many times people say that NH methods are better than 'old methods', but when they explain more, the 'old methods' they refer to are rough cowboy ways from the US, which aren't really the same as the 'old methods' from the UK. I hope that makes sense? :D
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I was lucky enough to work with a really amazing NH trainer .... she was the type who jumped showjumping courses with no saddle and no bridle (?) and was a great teacher. What I learned from her is that a lot of ‘kind’ but successful horse people methods don’t vary a lot from NH methods .... Consistency, calmness, Patience, awareness, chunking things down etc etc. Sadly a lot of these things have been lost in a lot of teaching in the modern age.
For what it is worth TRT method is a good dressage/NH mix and worth a look.
 
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