Natural or traditional??

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Amber1012

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I understand this has probably been done a million times before BUT I have read some opinions when searching the Internet and still can't decide how I feel...

I'd like to hear from others who use natural horsemanship and those that use traditional... Pros and cons for both...is it possible to just mix the two depending on your horses needs and what you want to achieve? Can you do natural groundwork and traditional riding or is that defeating the point? I'm really confused by this :-/
 
It is very confusing because both have a zillion meanings depending who you speak to. lol

I would stick with fair and effective horsemanship. Learn about horses and how they tick as best you can and use what fits with what is sensible and effective and suits you and your horse.
 
Ahhhh, fantaaaasstic, a "natural horsemanship" -v- traditional debate.

Someone was saying the other day that its been very quiet on here lately and that we needed a lively debate :)

Soooooo, swords and bucklers out, daggers at the ready.......:):):)

Sorry, am being very flippant. Blame it on the glass (or two) of wine I had for lunch.
 
I have a foot in both camps. I was always traditional and it worked very well for me - although I did always try and see things from the horse's point of view, and use my grey matter instead of getting tough to solve a problem. But my current home bred horse made me think again. So, I ride in a traditional saddle and bridle, my horse wears shoes, I carry a schooling whip. And train in classical dressage.
BUT I feed a low sugar non cereal diet, have horses living out as much as the weather allows, and use behavioural methods to train them.
I regard everything I see and learn as more tools to add to my toolbox for problem solving, and if you get precious about one or other you remove a large number of options for yourself and your horse. They aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Amber1012, I would completely put out of your mind labels such as 'natural' or 'traditional'.

I would suggest you concentrate on a common sense approach. Keep the horses needs catered for, always be calm and fair with the horse but at the same time set boundaries and be clear and consistent in whatever you ask for. If it feels right it probably is.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Ahhhh, fantaaaasstic, a "natural horsemanship" -v- traditional debate.

Someone was saying the other day that its been very quiet on here lately and that we needed a lively debate :)

Soooooo, swords and bucklers out, daggers at the ready.......:):):)

Sorry, am being very flippant. Blame it on the glass (or two) of wine I had for lunch.
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Haha! I could do with afew myself :)
 
Yes, I do think it's time to just have horsemanship and horse management. lol There are fundamentals that don't really vary and they tend to be the things important to the horse.
 
Amber1012 said:
Is there a difference between natural horsemanship and intelligent horsemanship?
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No real idea.

Intelligent horsemanship (Kelly Marks) means thinking about what and why you are doing and trying to make intelligent decisions. Trying to understand horses and use that in your work is an important part of IH.

Labels aren't helpful at all I've discovered, there is so much variety between individuals and their take that two from apparently opposing ideas may be like twins, whereas two from the same 'label' can be poles apart in their approach.
 
Amber1012 said:
Is there a difference between natural horsemanship and intelligent horsemanship?
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IH is a brand. NH is a blanket term covering a whole host of approaches from different trainers. I don't follow any single approach. The only difference between traditional and NH is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship.
Some traditionalists are great with horses because they understand horse behaviour, just as some of the NH trainers are excellent too.
Unfortunately, there are some right idiots out there waving orange sticks and chasing horses around lunge pens. There is no quick route to knowing how to read horses and train them in a way that keeps them sane and healthy. Unfortunately, too many novices look to NH guru's for fast answers instead of using patience and getting experience of a number of different horses and situations.
 
Definitely a foot in both camps because at the end of the day you want to get the best out of your horse, so if it means chasing it around a pen, or lunging it in a circle you are still going to achiieve hopefully what you want. I use both and if one isnt working, whilst both should, then i change over.

Best i heard when i got Dougal was that i should sit in the field for however many hours it takes and when he comes to me then i know he has accepted me, this is a pony who is human shy, not wild, so why would he just come along and sit by me and have a fag, if i havent been able to hold him and tell him its okay. Well sorry lady but i have a job to go to which pays for the horses so no time sitting in the field watching butterflies. 5 days down the line i can catch Dougal no probs and today changed his head collar in the stable, it hasnt been off in 9 months at WHW, because if you took it off that was it, no catching pony.
 
IH is a brand no more no less it's a marketing tool.
Horsemanship is what people do every day learnt over time tailored to their situation and needs adjusted to suit each horse .
Traditional I have no idea what that means except I see through a dream like haze jute rugs and striped lancets I can smell warm damp bran and see men riding in flat caps ......
 
The thing is, I have yet to hear a clear definition of either.

I don't see what the problem is with just horsemanship. I guess people like to be part of a tribe. Common sense, compassion and consistency are the bywords of horsemanship, through every discipline and school, and ideally every rider should be open minded and looking to improve!

In my experience, the title is just an excuse for doing things a certain way - people call themselves traditional as an excuse for beating a horse into submission, and natural if they want to take a softly softly approach that doesn't really get any results. The thing is, riding horses is NOT natural, so I'm not sure what the end game is. And where does Classical Horsemanship come in? Traditional but with echoes of natural? It all gets too confusing for me :p
 
Pigeon said:
The thing is, I have yet to hear a clear definition of either.

I don't see what the problem is with just horsemanship. I guess people like to be part of a tribe. Common sense, compassion and consistency are the bywords of horsemanship, through every discipline and school, and ideally every rider should be open minded and looking to improve!

In my experience, the title is just an excuse for doing things a certain way - people call themselves traditional as an excuse for beating a horse into submission, and natural if they want to take a softly softly approach that doesn't really get any results. The thing is, riding horses is NOT natural, so I'm not sure what the end game is. And where does Classical Horsemanship come in? Traditional but with echoes of natural? It all gets too confusing for me :p
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Errr..yep, I'm confused now! Haha
 
Pigeon said:
The thing is, I have yet to hear a clear definition of either.

I don't see what the problem is with just horsemanship. I guess people like to be part of a tribe. Common sense, compassion and consistency are the bywords of horsemanship, through every discipline and school, and ideally every rider should be open minded and looking to improve!

In my experience, the title is just an excuse for doing things a certain way - people call themselves traditional as an excuse for beating a horse into submission, and natural if they want to take a softly softly approach that doesn't really get any results. The thing is, riding horses is NOT natural, so I'm not sure what the end game is. And where does Classical Horsemanship come in? Traditional but with echoes of natural? It all gets too confusing for me :p
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What on earth makes you think 'Traditional' is about beating a horse into submission. I am very traditional and certainly would not do that.

As I said in the earlier post there is no difference between traditional and natural except for the interpretation by the person.
 
I'm not sure of the terms but I use the Richard Maxwell methods and I think he is a sensible thinking approach, no nonsense and pretty traditional with lots of clever things he has worked out too.
 
I was brought up traditional, had a few accidents, and lessons from an olympic rider....who was make the horse do it type. I lost a lot of my feel.
A friend went into natural. I read some of her bits, use some of the stuff, and found my missing feel again.
I have had a super classical trainer, who taught me more than the olympic rider, even having a lesson in walk one day that I learnt tonnes from

All different things have come together for me, for different things, and I use what suiits each horse I am round
I use by choice rope halters and long lines.

I use NH tools.

but then I look at the different teachers out there and find again so many different approaches, some kind, and some more forceful.

and then I look at my horses, and horses in general and think again they are the most amazing animals for putting up with us at all!
 
Tnavas said:
What on earth makes you think 'Traditional' is about beating a horse into submission. I am very traditional and certainly would not do that.

As I said in the earlier post there is no difference between traditional and natural except for the interpretation by the person.
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Just my personal experience!!
 
This is the problem with labels, they are also coloured by our experiences and perceptions of situations.

Lol! I got mixed up with the smacking thread. Deleted part of post.
 
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amandap said:
Intelligent horsemanship (Kelly Marks) means thinking about what and why you are doing and trying to make intelligent decisions. Trying to understand horses and use that in your work is an important part of IH.
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for me that is just how being with horses should be

I dont class myself as either traditional/natural, I was trained by someone who aimed to produce and horse that could be ridden to a high level traditionally but the road that got each horse there would vary from animal to animal or combination of horse and rider. never was a halter or long rope used but different options were explored.

In recent years I have been seen to wave a carrot stick and tie a halter knot. mainly for ground work and mostly to teach my mare it is safe to be stood on the end of the line and cope with what is going on in the world rather than want to be held in my arms. the big advantage for me is when I want to slob along or after dental work I can chuck a halter on and ride in that.

natural horsemanship is to my mind just a label that earns a lot of money for a few people and surely thought should always have been given to the temperament of the individual horse during its education. the view that traditional just runs rough shod over the horses emotions and reactions is not how it has ever been for me we were taught to try and understand why the horse was struggling and to think of ways to create a willing and relaxed relationship whereby the horse wanted to be/work with us.
 
Parelli Natural Horsemanship and Intelligent Horsemanship are brand names.

I've never heard of classical horsemanship only classical riding.

Natural horsemanship and traditional horsemanship mean different things to different people.

I use traditional horsemanship, which to me means using methods that have been proven for years and years to be effective yet humane.

Natural horsemanship to me looks like traditional methods dressed up to pretend to be something new and presented to the horse owner as such. That doesn't necessarily mean the natural horsemanship methods are harmful, though in some cases I think they are. I am not a fan of Parelli Natural Horsemanship having watched people train their horses using this method with PNH qualified help. It seems to me to be psychological and sometimes physical bullying of the horse, which may produce extreme submission but leaves the horse unable to think for itself. I've read Kelly Marks book Perfect Manners, which was told to me as a new wonderful method by so many people I know. The book describes basic and effective traditional horse handling skills, nothing more IMO. I watched the Monty Roberts demo video that came with the dually halter I bought. I was shocked to see this "humane, kind, gentle" (as told to me by others) person pulling horses around. Yes he got results but the force used was unnecessary IMO and it would have been better to train the horse by methods other than: pulling it about harshly until it realised what he wanted. I use a dually halter instead of putting a rope round the nose of a strong pulling horse, because the dually is easier to use. The horse respects either rope or dually and does not pull. I still lead in the traditional way.

From the people I've spoken to who use natural horsemanship methods, it seems to me that they have gone down that road because they've never been taught the proper skills of traditional horsemanship and when their lack of skill doesn't get the results they want, they turn to another method. Sometimes all they seem to need is training and by learning fully from the beginning with their chosen method, they get this. Other times the studying, practicing or interpretation of their chosen method is lacking, or the method itself is harmful, and the horse owner gets no better results with natural horsemanship than they did with traditional methods.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I use traditional horsemanship, which to me means using methods that have been proven for years and years to be effective yet humane.
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How did you learn them though?

This is a problem if you learn from a more 'control by fear' person with no understanding of the basics.

Sugar_and_Spice said:
I've read Kelly Marks book Perfect Manners, which was told to me as a new wonderful method by so many people I know. The book describes basic and effective traditional horse handling skills, nothing more IMO.
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I think that was the point of the book. It's a basic book which is very useful if you haven't had access to someone who can teach you these things.
ps. Perhaps the person who told you that didn't know what you did, it was obviously useful to them if not for you.
 
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amandap said:
How did you learn them though?

This is a problem if you learn from a more 'control by fear' person with no understanding of the basics.


I think that was the point of the book. It's a basic book which is very useful if you haven't had access to someone who can teach you these things.
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I learned traditional methods through the Pony Club via a lot of different, but all very good, instructors. (I find this odd really as I don't believe in the rigid methods that is the BHS way of teaching people to pass the BHS Stages exams, yet the Pony Club is part of the BHS. Perhaps I just got lucky?). I also read plenty of books and spoke to people who seemed to get good results about what methods they used to achieve it. I watched people have lessons with their instructors.

I instinctively ignored anything that appeared to be inhumane. Obviously there are many different methods to achieve the same result, but with thought its clear that some methods complement each other, making sense from a humane yet effective perspective. Whilst other methods make some vague kind of sense but contradict the other knowledge, appearing to be less humane or effective as training methods, so I chose to ignore those. I learn lots from the owner of the riding school, who encouraged us to go to Pony Club and yet who mostly gave consistent demonstrations of how not to go about things! So I started with poor training but decided early on to leave those methods behind and stick to what I learned at Pony Club and was learning elsewhere.

I agree with you that the purpose of Kelly Marks' book may be as you state. But whether through marketing (sticking a brand name on something that could just as easily have been called "common sense" rather than "Intelligent Horsemanship") or just through peoples interpretation, all I ever heard from people was about this wonderful new method. It's is wonderful. But its not IMO new. :)
 
Instead of thinking "Classical" or "NH" think instinctively, every living thing is an individual, treat it as such, Tell me to do something and I won't, ask me to do something and chances are I will, show one of mine a whip and he explodes (from travellers) despite having him for four years, you cannot treat all horses the same, like kids, you find out what works for them
 
I train my horse using the Parelli methods, but I don't think I can say I keep my horse naturally as he lives on 50 horse livery yard - that ain't never going to be natural! Having said that, I do try very hard to keep his needs as a horse in the fore front of any decision making - for example herd turnout was very important to me when choosing a yard - but that's just being a half decent horse owner, rather than a result of a specific training method.

He's stabled at night, wears rugs , a saddle & halter/bridle ... Something that is so clearly not 'natural'. But, I doubt many horses are kept 'naturally' & so (for me) it comes down to making devisions for my horse based on a mixture of moral, ethical , judgement from past experiences & practical basis & hope I get them right for his sake - using my horse as feedback & being prepared to try something different for him if ned be. That's all most of us can do, I think - regardless if we choose to do Parelli, IH, BHS, Monty Roberts, French classic or any other 'type' of training.

I ended up doing Parelli, because I found it really helped me with my horse & subsequently I love my instructor & being a part of the local Parelli movement/group/social scene. But it's not the only way & everyone has to do what suits their horse & them. Simples! :)
 
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