Naughty Andy- Introducing his new 'trick'

[Kokopelli]

Had a lovely lesson on Friday but for the first time he decided to do this with me- little monkey!

I was talking to my instructor prior to this about when he does drop his head down long and low he occasionaly goes very slightly behind the vertical and she said this is fine whilst he is building muscle and getting to grips with everything.

But this is very naughty:

[youtube]aFMx2B0a-z4[/youtube]

I hope I corrected it okay? I lifted my hands up and put my leg on, I then asked for a short canter to get his attention back to me.

The little grey came and joined us in our lesson who I absolutly love! He is literally the perfect pony club pony, the type very hard to find.

 

[JoJo_]

Personally I would rather see him going a bit overbent when your trying to get him working long and low to build up muscle than sticking his head up in the air. My boy often goes overbent at the moment but i'm not too worried at this point in his training.

 

[AFlapjack]

I wouldn't say that was very naughty at all.

I would much rather him be slightly overbent than head stuck in the clouds at his current level of training especially as he's know to carry his head quite high anyway.

 

[Tr0uble]

It's not like he's got his chin stuck to his chest, nor is he overbending to evade....just a typical lack of correct balance I would say....when he does it, push him on and don't take a hold. As he gains strength he'll be able to work in a more correct frame.

 

[Kokopelli]

I suppose it isn't awfully over-bent but won't that sort of bending encourage the wrong muscles in his neck to form?

Here is some gridwork from the same lesson:

[youtube]zkZBYrJP618[/youtube]

 

[Tr0uble]

Only if he does it for prolonged periods....only watched the video once, and it was stop/starting because my internet is shite at the moment....but it looked to me like he was varying between above and below ideal, if he was sticking his head in one place an going round like that all the time then yes he'll develop the wrong muscles....

But to be honest, at his stage in fitness and training I'd only be offering a light contact in front to give him something to stretch to, and focusing more on the back end rather than the front end

 

[Zabby]

I'm with you.
Rather slightly before the vertical than slightly behind it.

Tucking the nose in will only serve to get the horse less connected to the back. Which is great when you show because if you do it often and much enough the horse won't try to balance himself with the head so you wont loose points from that.. >)

Although a horse may go a tad behind the vertical when training, it's ok as long as the base of the neck is still round, which points to a good back. Going too far - as in the video - will just lead to the horse getting heavier on the forehand and disconnecting/dropping the back.
Crow tends to do that too.

I'd ride the horse more forward and give in the reins, if that didn't work I'd take the hands up.

 

[Kokopelli]

That was pretty much our only bad point from the lesson. He was a lot more consistent working low but slightly behind the vertical but nothing major and we just had odd moments where he would do that over-bentness or lose concentration because the foal was running around.

So if he does that again should I correct him or continue working normally?

 

[JoJo_]

He's not consistently overbent and i'd worry more about wrong muscles developing when he's doing giraffe impressions with head in the air. If you keep your leg on and keep a light contact he should stretch into it and he'll be working over his back too so the overall picture is better even when slightly overbent.

 

[Tr0uble]

I totally agree that it is better to be slightly in front of the vertical than behind it, but frm watching that video I still don't think it's anything to worry about overly (though it WAS interrupted viewing because of my pants internet making it sto start, so maybe I'm missing something?)

 

[Kokopelli]

I see where your coming from but when he does it doesn't feel like he is using his back muscles like he does when he's working normally. I know the giraffe impression isn't great either but we're getting there slowly

When he does it though I feel like there is nothing in front of me and there is no weight on my reins. Hopefully he won't make a habit of it.

 

[shadowboy]

To be honest I would be expecting an inconsistant head carraige as he is going to find working effectively very difficult at the moment with a lack of muscles in his back and neck. I wouldn't worry where his head is at the moment rather that the trot has a positive swing and he tries to use his back, he's going to struggle to start with so i would aim for short burst of correct work so he aims to please. Always think forwards but try not to push him out of his pace if that makes sense- my personal choice would not to be to change the pace to canter as this may then bcome his next evasion- if canter is easier that trotting properly. But the video is too short to give a clear indication of his work- he looks wobbly and generally lacking in topline-hence proper head/back carriage will take time

 

[NicoleS_007]

Wow he certainly has a good pop in him makes mince meat of that grid lol ... Tbh i wouldnt be to bothered at him being slightly over bent atm. My last horse was a wee ex racer, built quite downhill and went like a giraffe when we first got him. When we first started schooling him he went slightly overbent like your chap but when he had muscled up and got stronger we gradually brought him more up in his outline. I have numerous pics if you want to see (any excuse )

 

[Kokopelli]

Okay thanks for reassurance, I was gettign worried he was going to go around with his chin on his chest all the time and look awful!

Would love to see pics Nicole, then I have something to work towards

 

[Zabby]

The short moments in the vid is nothing, but if he makes a habit out of it it's more difficult to handle than if you keep him ''up''. Lowering the frame and rounding the neck will come when the rest of the horse is supple.

 

[NicoleS_007]

Bad qual pics as there quite old from the days were phones didnt have good cameras

And more up in his frame

He was by no means a dressage pony but he tryed his besterest and i was very proud (still am) of him

 

[mystiandsunny]

It would seem, if he's starting to do this now, that perhaps he has finally learnt that you want his head down, so when his muscles start to ache, he's tucking his nose in as a way of releasing them for a little bit, rather than raising his head in the air. That would be normal for a horse who is learning (or possibly re-learning in his case), to carry itself on the bit all the time. My youngsters occasionally do this for a little stretch, it doesn't last more than a few seconds, and the contact returns. As they are getting stronger, it happens less and less often, and to be fair to them, it now only really happens if I've got too involved in something and forgotten to give them a break.

Of course, if he's doing it as evasion with intent, that's different...

 

[Booboos]

OK so this is what I see, but take it with a pinch of salt because I know almost nothing!!! (if you post this thread in CR you may get more experienced dressage people who might have a different view than mine so go with their opinion!)

The video starts with him working though his back, nice and round, but a tad on the forehand which is what leads him to bring his head a bit BTV. However, I would say the over all picture is a great deal better than before when he was hollow. Riding a horse long and low, but with lift in the shoulders which is what is required if the head is to stay on the vertical, is really, really difficult and requires the horse to have established back muscles. For me, the frame he shows at the start of the video is acceptable as a means to getting to more self-carriage and I would try to encourage him to keep it for as long as possible (try to do a walk transition while he is still in this frame and allow him the rein to the buckle to stretch for a few minutes, then pick him up again).

The second half of the circle he does put his head up but he also hollows through his back which suggests to me that he is tired from working more effectively before.

 

[Kokopelli]

Thanks, I do see what you mean now. We gave him a break shortly after so I probably need to give him a rest when schooling more often then I am atm, he does tend to give little signs off when he is getting tired.