naughty horse when show jumping...

[wench]

just wondering if anyone has any tips. My horse can be increadibly naughty when attempting to show jump him at home or at a show.

Todays example was I set up a largish cross pole and tried to jump it. Horse decided that he wasnt jumping it and no matter how straight I tried to point him at it using reins and legs went into it wonky and ran out. Instant he does this he gets a smack, and pointed at it again.

Back, teeth saddle etc are all fine. Just getting really annoyed about him being a prat.

Any advise?

 

[Durhamchance]

Is this a recent thing or has he always been like it?

 

[wench]

used to be a lot worse... just sick of it.

Had people watching me btw, wasnt anything that I'm doing wrong

 

[KatB]

I know from past posts this is a problem you have had for a while. Do you stop him before he runs past the fence? Does he start doing it at any particular height, or just at Sj's in general?

 

[wench]

he can do it at any height, altho tends to be the "larger" (90cm to 1.05m which is as high as I jump him) stuff now. Its very hard to stop him once he runs out to the side, he dives round the fence and runs off. Always pull him up as soon as I can.

Thought I had cured it, but not after todays performance!

ets: has been better recently with xc jumps... used to do it with those as well!

 

[Durhamchance]

Would a guide rail help? (the same thing used to stop them running out when lose schooling)

Maybe some more confidence building work with smaller jumps?

 

[wench]

a guide rail does help... when its there. Instant they get taken away he generally starts running out again.

He's confident enough with his jumping I think, hes just bone idle, and I think that he thinks that by running out hes doing less work.

 

[KatB]

Dont let him run past the fence, if he is running away from you, it suggests you are loosing control into the fence and therefore giving him chance to run out/run off! Keep a good contact right to the base of the fence, and keep your leg on strongly so you are riding him strongly through a "corridor" from your legs to you hands. If he tries to run out, keep your shoulders back and pull his teeth out!! he is NOT allowed to run off and use that as a way of running out. At 90cm, he should be able to jump from trot, so keep it as slow as possible to control every movement.

 

[franki]

I'm going to be very unpopular I'm sure but I don't agree a horse is ever naughty or can be a prat. Let me explain, your horse has a learned behaviour of not jumping positively, this learned negative behaviour must be replaced by a new positive behaviour. You need to teach your horse a new behaviour and that's the hard bit. Does he not understand? Has he been overfaced? Is he afraid? Has he had a bad experience? Does he like jumping? Does he not like jumping? Will he jump positively when loose schooled? Will he jump happily out hacking or on cross country? You've checked all the technicalities and they're ok, so what else is there. You need him to feel jumping is a positive experience, that he can do it and make him want to do it, he needs positive reinforcement not negative reinforcement. How is your riding? Are you blocking him at any point? Giving him mixed signals? Do you have experience with "problem" jumpers? Clearly giving him a smack and getting annoyed hasn't worked when he runs out so how about changing the approach. Break it down and find out what works, stick to what works for however long it takes for it to become a new behaviour. This may mean jumping a grids of 70cm cross poles for the next 6 months until he is confident and happy to do more. Do you have an instructor who can help?

 

[wench]

well in todays effort we were trotting up to them, and no matter how much leg/rein was on him, just wasnt having it.

 

[KatB]

Sorry, but sounds like he either just doesnt like jumping, or you're not riding strongly enough

You need to make sure he cant run past the fence, and turn him back to it asap if he does run past it, keep it small so he is jumping from standstill, then pat him when he does.

 

[wench]

[ QUOTE ]
Does he not understand? Has he been overfaced? Is he afraid? Has he had a bad experience? Does he like jumping? Does he not like jumping? Will he jump positively when loose schooled? Will he jump happily out hacking or on cross country? How is your riding? Are you blocking him at any point? Giving him mixed signals? Do you have experience with "problem" jumpers? This may mean jumping a grids of 70cm cross poles for the next 6 months until he is confident and happy to do more. Do you have an instructor who can help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to put such a long quote - may make it easier for the answer tho. He def understands that he should be going over, not round! He hasnt been asked to jump anything huge, as I am not keen on jumping very high, and no-one else really jumps him. He will jump when loose schooled, when the guide rails are up, otherwise he just goes round. XC - generally better than sj, depends if he is in a sulk or not (yes he does have sulks, very experienced horse person has commented on this!) If hes not in a sulk, he really seems to quiet enjoy it. My riding is not the best in the world, I have had the horse three years, and he is the first one I bought. I have jumping lessons in a group with the RS he is kept at, and there are faults with my riding, dont think there is any large contributing factor to me making him run out. The only problem jumper I have ever been with is him! However, he does run out with much more experienced and better riders than me. I have been doing lots of grid work with him over the winter... thought it had helped... obviously not as much as I thought!

 

[dixie]

Perhaps he's just not suited to jumping. I had a horse who was very athletic but he just did not want to jump. I had to accept this wasn't for him and found him another job. Harsh I know, but not every horse is cut out to be a jumper and you are obviously not having fun at the moment.

 

[wench]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but sounds like he either just doesnt like jumping, or you're not riding strongly enough

[/ QUOTE ]

he enjoys it sometimes... theres the odd occasion he sees a jump ears prick up and he takes you to it! (both xc and sj!)

riding not perfect I know!

 

[wench]

here is a couple of pics of him sj... he doesnt look like hes hating it!

pic 1

pic 2

riding not excellent

 

[KatB]

Nope he doesnt, which is why I go with my first post, he needs to know he is not allowed to do it!!

 

[wench]

I keep on thinking I've cracked it, but doesnt seem to happen. Need some inspiration!!!

 

[LEC]

Does he do this with another rider? What about sticking a pro on board or an instructor? If he does not do this with them or soon stops it then and there is only one conclusion.

Does he cross his jaw? Maybe try another noseband? What about a fulmer bit? The other final thing worth trying is if he constantly prefers one side then stick a brush on. They are very handy. Another option is French blinkers?
Finally I think I would try draw reins if it really was that bad and see if they made any difference in keeping the straightness as they would keep him polite but if you are not very experienced they are not really an option.

 

[wench]

he does do it with other riders, although hoping to try someone else on him this week. He is in a full cheek snaffle anyway, and I do have some french blinkers I have to try, just havent got round to it yet, as he seemed to be going a lot better recently. He generally runs out to the right. Although today it was a dive round the left hand side as the rhs was against the school wall!

 

[TableDancer]

This probably won't help as I'm not tackling your problem - don't really like to comment on the basis of what little I know - but those are fab photos! He has the most fantastic technique over a fence and you look pretty good too

Personally in your situation I'd be getting an honest assessment off a new instructor - if you've worked with the same one for a long time it may be time for a fresh pair of eyes. Good luck, I'd persevere as he looks like a jumper to me

 

[ester]

mine sulks too! but only very very occasionally now

He does need to learn that going over is the only option (have had similar issues) he def needs to stop running past, stop him straight in front of the fence and the get someone to drop the pole quite low so he can negotiate from a standstill and just get from A to b without going via C even if it is not pretty. Mine won't jump from a stand v well but I just really drop the poles.

Also have you tried spending time riding him between wings with just poles or no poles but jump width apart so he perfects through rather than around.

I would try and take it chilled as if he is dashing off too much like that it is real avoidance not just stopping.

I would only jump at home at the mo, unless you can do clear round somewhere cos if he does it at his show he will get his way if 2 stops then elimination, I swear mine had learnt that trick so only jumped him where I knew the organisers would let me continue.

hope some of that may help but I feel your pain, has 18months of it but have had the best pony for 2.5 years since.

 

[wench]

thanks very much, nice to see something nice written!!! When he wants to jump, he does it very nicely and very well!

 

[TarrSteps]

It's interesting to look at all the photos, not just those 2 - his technique is very variable, unusually so!

Is/has he always been as careful as he is in the two photos you highlighted? His technique in those two photos is so extreme, relative to the size of the fences and the amount he's apparently jumped, that I'd wonder about his innate level of confidence. Extremely careful horses are notorious for developing stopping problems, which is why they often don't make great horses for amateurs. (That is in NO way a comment on you and this horse, just a general comment that often people are attracted to extremely careful jumpers just for the "wow" factor but they're a double edged sword - too much chicken, not enough lion.

)

I would second the suggestion of getting another opinion. No one can help you without seeing the horse properly and probably even having a sit on him. At this point you do run the risk of making things worse by just trying random stuff and if confidence is part of it, the more often it goes wrong the less likely you are to get him back to being reasonably reliable.

Again, perhaps unpopular, but I'm not sure I'd rule out a physical aspect (notice I didn't say an irrefutable and unfixable cause) in part because the horse has the physical capability to jump the way he does in those photos. If he CAN jump that well, that easily, it doesn't really ring true that he refuses simply because it's too much effort. And before the idea is completely dismissed remember we've recently been privy to at least two cases on this very board of good, proven riders with promising looking horses, with only intermittent jumping problems that turned out, in the end, to be seriously physically compromised. I've seen it too many times.

Again, I am NOT saying your horse is sore or that's the only reason for jumping problems. Not at all - it's far more complicated. Which is all the more reason to get someone very knowledgeable, whom you trust and respect (perhaps training well above the level you think you "need") who has jumped hundreds of horses to have a look. They will know what tests to do and what signs to look out for. Yes, it might cost a bit but it will be worth it to get some answers.

 

[ester]

you are completely right about careful horses, mine will very very rarely take a pole, but will occasionally stop, particularly if it is nearer our height limit and the stride isn't quite right.

 

[henryhorn]

I had a look at your pics and he's a lovely horse and your position is good, but you do say you aren't comfortable jumping sometimes.
One poster has already replied explaining the learned negative behaviour, and I completely agree with her.
Horses like yours can often be retrained by a stronger more experienced rider but that niggle will always remain with anyone not so firm.
He must not be allowed to shoot past jumps even if you end up ploughing through them, just keep lowering the fence and approaching under control in trot until he pops it happily on virtually a loose rein.
I would take himon some confidence building XC sessions following another horse, and maybe do some pairs classes when the HT season starts too.
I hate to cast doubts on your instructor's capability but what they have done up to now clearly hasn't solved the problem, so think about going to someone else.
Often the older retired showjumping pros are the best for this type of horse.
if your aim however is to compete SJ more than anything else, why not think about buying a horse who actually wants to do it?
I'm sure you love him but it may be his strength is in other areas and he and you would be happier in a different partnership.
I would go and have an honest assessment with someone like the above, then think hard..

 

[wench]

The main aim with him is to go eventing... so have to try and get through the show jumping! hes normally a different horse xc!

One of the reasons he can jump so big over them is that although he is 11, he didnt start jumping coloured poles until I got him, and not having regular transport I cant get him out as much as I would like.

 

[Decision_Tree]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps he's just not suited to jumping. I had a horse who was very athletic but he just did not want to jump. I had to accept this wasn't for him and found him another job. Harsh I know, but not every horse is cut out to be a jumper and you are obviously not having fun at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tend to agree, maybe together you are just not a good couple? some horses just need a different type of rider and some riders need a different type of horse, attitude im meaning. I had a horse who was a stopper and in the end I had to admit we where not suited, I had many a lesson with many an instructor and had her since birth, so the horse had no bad past. Its like a relationship, sometimes its not meant to be.