Navicular and barefoot (or unshod . . . )

PolarSkye

PolarSkye

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Without wanting to start a war or a highly inflammatory thread, I am genuinely interested in the whys and wherefores of removing shoes from horses with navicular.

As you may remember, Kal was recently diagnosed with changes/lesions in the navicular bones of both front feet (not being "fluffy" or anything else in referring to the things on the ends of his legs as "feet" . . . could just as easily have typed "hooves" but "feet" tripped more readily off the fingertips).

Treatment for now is low doses of bute (one sachet per day), eggbar shoes (with rolled toes) and work/movement to promote blood flow to his feet. I have finally begun to see an improvement - he is sound in his left fore (he was bilaterally lame) and only 1/10th lame in his right fore . . . but this is on bute.

We have lots of other options open to us . . . gel pads, aluminium shoes (either separately or combined), Tildren . . . but I'd like to consider perhaps removing his front shoes altogether. Both my farrier and my vet are unsupportive of this approach, but I'm hearing and reading anecdotal evidence that some horses with navicular respond well to being unshod/barefoot.

I have seen firsthand how the external structures of his hinds responded and improved without shoes - I made the decision to have him unshod behind a year ago and his hind feet are superb . . . require minimal trimming, have hardened up and are beautiful to look at (and are sound).

I guess my question is HOW does being barefoot/unshod benefit horses with navicular? If I chose to take this radical step (and I'm not convinced either way yet), how should I prepare Kal - feed, management, etc.?

Thank in advance . . . and please let's not turn this into a barefoot versus shod debate . . . k?

P
 
I've kept my mouth shut but been waiting for you since you got the diagnosis :D:D:D

So....navicular = pain in the back of the hoof. Damage to the internal areas too (almost always including DDFT lesions).

The navicular bone is a lever which acts with the DDFT.
DDFT.jpg


In a healthy hoof you have a tough, robust frog and digital cushions (red) and tough lateral cartilages (green).
lateralcartilage.jpg


In an unhealthy hoof and in a navicular hoof, the back of the hoof is usually weak and incapable of loading properly. So the horse will land toe first - this is a common theme with navicular diagnosis.

If you look at how shoes work, they take the back of the hoof out of action as it doesn't touch the floor. The lack of frog stimulation starts the heel contracting and it goes on.....therefore the back of the hoof becomes weak....some horses manage fine - some get navicular (you can get it with poorly trimmed barefoot hooves too)
caudalfrog.jpg


So the egg bar shoes are an attempt to support and engage the back of the hoof. Heart bar shoes are an attempt to support and engage the back of the hoof and provide frog stimulation too.

Both types of shoes can provide some relief and help. But their effectiveness is varied and not considered long term - you are waiting for the navicular to 'progress'.....

What barefooters want to do it DEVELOP the back of the hoof.

If you look at the sole shots of long term barefoot horses with healthy hooves - all of them have huge, beefy frogs and firm digital cushions. They will land heel first most of the time. It is impossible to avoid it :D

Observe the mighty barefoot legend - the hoof biscuit :D

hooffrisbee.jpg


Successfully, barefoot horses with navicular are not restricted in what they can and cannot do and we are not waiting for things to get worse and for navicular to 'claim' them...:)
 
Ooh yeah, I had a horse with navicular. He does everything now, hunter trials, fun rides, xc, dressage, jump over the fences, annoys his friends, usual tricks basically but this time with more of the sense of humour than before. Git :D

Oh and he has the prettiest lateral cartilages you have ever seen. Nice n beefy and his digital cushion is well 'ard! probably what gives him the extra bounce needed to clear two double electric fences in one go.
 
Only you can decide what route you take in the circumstances you find your self in .
If I was in that situation I would definatly go the shoeless route .
You need to study research and read up every thing you can then make an informed choice
 
I don't know so much about the whys and wherefores, I can only speak from personal experience! My sister's gelding has navicular and initially he was given tildren and shod with eggbar shoes. There was an initial period of improvement, but then we seemed to hit a brick wall and he just got gradually lamer. He was shod from x rays, but nothing seemed to help and in the end he wasn't completely sound even with 2 bute a day. He then suffered from a bout of lami (we think it was provoked by having to have his toes trimmed so short) and the vet herself said that his shoes would have to come off, as we just weren't getting anywhere. He is now at Rockley Farm. He has a fair way to go but the improvements so far have been dramatic.
His most recent update: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/feet-flippers-and-fallacies.html
Comparative footage of him walking: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/new-girl-candy-and-more-on-legend.html

Anyway, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it is definitely something to consider!!
 
Thank you all - just what I wanted/needed - informative, rational and educational posts. A special thank you to Oberon for the two PMs . . . lots to read/think about.

I think I might take some pics of his feet and his conformation/stance in general so you clever people can take a look and give me your thoughts . . . and then I might do some serious thinking about how to move forward.

In the meantime, I have some questions . . .

In your opinions, do you think we're better off getting a decent barefoot trimmer (and how do I find such a beast)? Or can I rely on a good remedial farrier to trim his feet up correctly? Will the trimmer want to look at his x-rays? How far ahead of removing his shoes should I start supporting his feet with diet? He does NO roadwork or work on particularly hard ground. . . will that make a difference to how well (or not) his feet acclimate?
 
OP - my TB mare was diagnosed with navicular as well as spavin, PSLD and arthritis of the fetlock. She was lame on three legs. She is now unshod/barefoot (call it what you will!) and hacking out again, despite being advised by the vets at the hospital back in October that the best outcome would be as a companion. Even earlier this year, my own vet said he thought it unlikely that I would ever ride her again. He came out last week to vaccinate her and was pleasantly surprised when I told him I was back riding her. He even admitted that her feet had improved dramatically - and believe me, he is NOT pro barefoot! I realise that the improvements might not last forever and eventually remedial shoes may be the ultimate outcome, but for now, unshod is working for me. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
Well my friends mare has not been right for quite some time, not been diagnosed with anything but she has worn shoes for the last 14years this mare, they got taken off this week. We rode out today and she was like a new horse, it was wonderful to see her striding out and comfortable trotting along without shoes, downhill was no trouble, it seems to have have an instant positive effect.
That was very interesting reading Oberon
 
I would recommend Nic Barkers book Feet First to give you on over view on the BF thinking it helped me a lot .
I opted for a trimmer who I found on recommendation from someone I knew I knew my farrier is not open to that sort of thinking I have learnt a lot from my trimmer he has a conservative approach no radical trims which suits my mindset I would not have been happy with a more radical approach.
My horse was not lame just was interested to see what it was all about.
You should amend the diet ASAP .
The BT on here will help you though if it's the route you chose I would be happier if I was in your shoes with a vet with a open mind but even if the vet was against I would still go the BF route but only you can decide what's best for you and your horse Good Luck and let us know how he goes on.
 
Polarskye, you can choose whoever you want to look after your boys feet but please please check that they have a book full of working barefoot horses first before you make your decision.

If it is a trimmer, please make sure they are qualified UKNHCP or UKAEP. These are the only two professional bodies recognised by LANTRA. The courses are long and expensive, anyone who enters into it has to have time, guts and dedication and a hoof obsession is mandatory... it is not a two day course with a book to read as often quipped on here on previous threads. Visit the websites and you can find someone near you. Make enquiries and ask lots of questions :)
 
My boy was diagnosed with navicular and collateral ligament damage in January of this year. Following advice from Oberon, Tally Ho and a couple of others I did some research and sent him to Rockley. It wasn't against the advice of my vet and Farrier but I'm putting it mildly when I say they weren't keen at all.

Dom's been home just over a month now and we've done well over 60 miles of roadwork hacking, some off road hacking and a flatwork clinic in which my instructor said she'd never seen him work so well. I honestly thought I'd have to retire him in January and now he's going from strength to strength.

If you want to try it Nic Barker's book is a good reference and so are the amazing Barefoot Taliban on here. If you have insurance and your vet agrees you could consider the option of sending him to Rockley. Personally I hated Dom being away but I'm very glad now that he got the best possible start from Nic. Otherwise if you're going it alone at home I'd ask on here for a barefoot trimmer who knows their stuff because you will have troublesome times when you'll need someone on hand to scream 'help' to and know they'll be able to do so. Nic is fantastic but I've also heard that about lots of trimmers so whichever way you go you should have support.

The only other thing I'd suggest is getting him on a barefoot diet with barefoot supplements as soon as possible and preferably before you take the shoes off as it should make the transition easier for him.

You're more than welcome to pm me if you want to know anymore about my experiences before you make a decision. :) whatever you decide I wish you lots of luck with it. :) x
 
Hi PolarSkye, as a farrier who shod for some 35 years and now only does barefoot, I wanted to answer your query about whether to use a farrier or a barefoot trimmer.
You state in your opening thread that your vet and farrier were not keen on the idea of going barefoot, as your horse seems to have some problems I would strongly advise that you get a team that is on your side.
I never like to see a client put in the middle of an awkward situation where they have to decide between one professionals point of view and another’s.
If you decide to go barefoot, please try and get a vet and farrier/trimmer that will go with you.
I had a call today (sun) from a desperate owner who said her vet and farrier have told her that if she takes her horse barefoot they will not be responsible if the horse goes lame, she pointed out to me that the horse was already lame and that they had tried every shoe in the book.
Tomorrow I will arrange for a team to be there to support, advise and treat the horse.
This way we will all be pulling in the same direction.
My point is, it will not matter if it is a farrier or a trimmer as long as they are barefoot savvy, there is no point getting a farrier who ’just trims’ as this is not what you want.
Likewise it is no good having a vet that does not understand barefoot, if you get on with your vet then it may be quite possible they would be very interested in finding out more.
I am bound to say ‘go barefoot’ but I would not do it alone.
And please don’t forget the three main things when it comes to barefoot,
Diet, Diet, Diet
 
Hi PS

My horse had been diagnosed by MRI with navicular disease and damage to pretty much every tendon and ligament in both front feet. I went through wedges with natural balance, tildren X 2, and had both feet medicated as well. Horse was sound in wedges as long as I didn't school and was quite lame on turns. Vet advised me to use danilon and use him a much as possible until he was no longer sound then pts or shoes off to retire if field sound. Took shoes off in April, got boots and the greatest barefoot trimmer who made me change his diet and add minerels against analysed hay and grass. In the last 3 day I have ridden for over 6 hours and had a few straight line canters (all in boots) and I can't tell you how good he feels now. I have a different horse. I still have a long way to go but am starting to see the light. My horse has had 2 doses of danilon since last July. He was last at the vets last June 2011! You can always put the shoes back on and no my vets did not support me! Happy to pass trimmer details by pm, I would call her a remedial trimmer;)
 
More great, positive, constructive, encouraging stories . . . without inviting trouble I'd also love to hear from those who have removed shoes in the hope of helping resolve navicular changes and found it didn't work . . . and, more important, hearing why it didn't work.

Hope that makes sense. I'm still not wanting this particular thread to descend into a shoes/no shoes debate . . . but I am looking for varying anecdotal evidence/experience.

I want to make an informed decision.

P

P.S. Big thanks to all those who have shared their stories so far . . . your input is invaluable
 
I helped a friend with one which did not fully work. The reason was that the foot that her mare stayed intermittently lame on had a bone spur in addition to other navicular degeneration. I would be very cautious about a prognosis for bone spurs interfering in the action of a joint and barefoot.

My own rehab was due to be put to sleep and has now been continuously sound for two years in full work, jumping and winning at National Show level.
 
cptrayes said:
I helped a friend with one which did not fully work. The reason was that the foot that her mare stayed intermittently lame on had a bone spur in addition to other navicular degeneration. I would be very cautious about a prognosis for bone spurs interfering in the action of a joint and barefoot.

My own rehab was due to be put to sleep and has now been continuously sound for two years in full work, jumping and winning at National Show level.
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Interesting - his recent x-rays showed GD has sidebones on both feet . . . not technically the same thing as bone spurs, but I do wonder if that would be an issue . . . I guess the only way to find out would be to talk to a reputable barefoot trimmer ;).

P
 
PolarSkye said:
More great, positive, constructive, encouraging stories . . . without inviting trouble I'd also love to hear from those who have removed shoes in the hope of helping resolve navicular changes and found it didn't work . . . and, more important, hearing why it didn't work.

Hope that makes sense. I'm still not wanting this particular thread to descend into a shoes/no shoes debate . . . but I am looking for varying anecdotal evidence/experience.

I want to make an informed decision.
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Well, Legend is still a work in progress. It seems to be working so far and, looking at the angle change in his hoof I can't see how he won't be sounder once it's grown down, but only time will tell. I think that is they key issue with taking the shoes off - it can be a long process, as you need to wait for the hoof capsule to grow down. I think management is going to be the hard bit for us, once we have Legend home. Things like diet will be hard, but we'll do our best :)
 
HashRouge said:
Well, Legend is still a work in progress. It seems to be working so far and, looking at the angle change in his hoof I can't see how he won't be sounder once it's grown down, but only time will tell. I think that is they key issue with taking the shoes off - it can be a long process, as you need to wait for the hoof capsule to grow down. I think management is going to be the hard bit for us, once we have Legend home. Things like diet will be hard, but we'll do our best :)
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Wow - Legend's hooves are famous :D

I'm honoured to meet a member of his family :p.

It's been fascinating watching his hooves change - he's really challenging my preconceptions on wall separation.:)
 
PolarSkye said:
Interesting - his recent x-rays showed GD has sidebones on both feet . . . not technically the same thing as bone spurs, but I do wonder if that would be an issue . . . I guess the only way to find out would be to talk to a reputable barefoot trimmer ;).

P
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Side bones aren't an issue.

Look at Chavhorse's amazing Xrays on here:eek:. I have to say when she first posted them about whether barefoot would work (or if ANYTHING would work), I was very doubtful myself - but her horse came good :)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=528838&highlight=bones
 
Oberon said:
Wow - Legend's hooves are famous :D

I'm honoured to meet a member of his family :p.

It's been fascinating watching his hooves change - he's really challenging my preconceptions on wall separation.:)
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It is amazing to watch isn't it! I have to pinch myself sometimes when I see photos of that angle change - it almost seems impossible! The best thing though is seeing how much he has improved in himself every time we visit :)

I'll tell my sister (his owner) that his hooves are famous...it's nice to know that we're not the only ones taking an interest :)
 
If we do this, I can and am prepared to be patient . . . I don't want a quick fix for GD's lameness, I want him to have as much time pain free and sound as possible - for him. If it takes a year to get him sound, we'll do it. I'd rather wait and have him sound and comfy than implement some quick fix and have him founder. He may be older than we thought . . . but he's still only about 12/13 years old and should have years left in him . . . he's full of life and enjoys working . . . I want to give him as full a life as I possibly can.

Thanks again :).

P
 
HashRouge said:
It is amazing to watch isn't it! I have to pinch myself sometimes when I see photos of that angle change - it almost seems impossible! The best thing though is seeing how much he has improved in himself every time we visit :)

I'll tell my sister (his owner) that his hooves are famous...it's nice to know that we're not the only ones taking an interest :)
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No - he's been the cause of some hot debates in our little barefoot world ;)

But he's showing us all (along with Nic, of course :D) that we don't always HAVE to go in all guns blazing at wall separation - if we have good connection growing in.

I've learnt a lot from watching him on the Blog.
 
PolarSkye said:
Interesting - his recent x-rays showed GD has sidebones on both feet . . . not technically the same thing as bone spurs, but I do wonder if that would be an issue . . . I guess the only way to find out would be to talk to a reputable barefoot trimmer ;).

P
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One of the main reasons why barefoot rehabs work so well is that most lameness diagnosed in the back half of the foot (navicular spectrum) are actually soft tissue injuries which recover when the foot is allowed to work properly.

In my opinion, you are not as likely to have a perfect recovery with ringbone, it will depend on exactly how they are affecting him, but nevertheless there are a number of horses with ringbone who have been through Rockley and individual rehabs who have found going barefoot of enormous benefit.



By the way I hope your vet has made you aware that changes to the navicular bone on xray show very little correlation with lameness in horses? Most horses diagnosed via xray changes to the navicular will have soft tissue damage if MRI'd. Most of them will also come sound with a barefoot rehab, when the soft tissue damage is fixed, irrespective of the lesions still visible on the navicular. What's more, I have been informed by more than one source that if you xray 100 horses at random something like 50% of them will have navicular bone changes but not be lame.

You don't really have much to lose, I don't think. If your boy is lame with the ringbone and barefoot doesn't help, you can simply put the shoes back on. If he is actually lame with soft tissue damage then a barefoot rehab has a better chance of getting him right than shoeing or conventional medication, if the results people are reporting are anything to go by.
 
PS I don't know if you've looked at the Rockley blog at all but somewhere in the blogs for the last week or two there was a post talking about the various treatment methods for horses with hoof problems and it compared the success rates of each kind of treatment. I have to say it came out heavily in favour of barefoot and the studies used to state the success levels of conventional treatments were taken from vet studies.

No method is going to be 100% because all the horses are different but I liked the 85% success rate with barefoot as opposed to something like 10% with conventional treatments.

From what I've read and heard I'd say the larger percentage of barefoot failures are down to management issues. Not that owners can't be bothered but that it's really tricky to do and sometimes impossible in livery situations.

I'm lucky in that my full livery yard owner has gone out of her way to make sure Dom is managed as I need him to be, but interestingly she still thinks he'd fail a vetting if one was done so I wouldn't say she'd been convinced! :o

I'd be tempted to put up a thread asking if anyone has tried barefoot and struggled with it. With any luck you'll get some honest experiences and have an idea of what you might be letting yourself in for if you try it. We all know it isn't roses all the way but sometimes you forget how hard it can be.
 
Oberon said:
No - he's been the cause of some hot debates in our little barefoot world ;)

But he's showing us all (along with Nic, of course :D) that we don't always HAVE to go in all guns blazing at wall separation - if we have good connection growing in.

I've learnt a lot from watching him on the Blog.
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I can understand why he's caused debates - I obviously don't have that much in depth knowledge of hooves in general, but sometimes I look at them and think "surely this is impossible"!! But horses are great teachers, so hopefully he'll keep on showing us all :)
 
bikerchickone said:
From what I've read and heard I'd say the larger percentage of barefoot failures are down to management issues. Not that owners can't be bothered but that it's really tricky to do and sometimes impossible in livery situations.
Can you clarify what you mean by this? What do you mean by tricky? And what do you mean by impossible in livery situations?

GD is on DIY . . . I can turn him out as little or as much as I like . . . I can walk him in hand, he can be ridden (not by me at the moment - I'm a little broken, but by someone who understands his condition), I can feed him whatever I like as long as I pay for and store it . . . what else would be tricky?

P
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Sorry only just seen your post. What I mean is some yards won't allow overnight turnout in summer, others don't provide enough storage for full liveries to buy in the different feed their horses need etc. Didn't mean to worry you, just these are things I've come across talking to people about the barefoot route.

If you're on diy and able to turnout or stable as you wish then with enough patience you should be fine. I just remember the first few weeks when Dom came back as being quite tough because I needed to get everything in place and perfect ASAP, and it was hard work doing this on full livery.

You'll have much more control on diy so don't worry and I'm sorry if my post made you worry, I should've clarified sooner :o x
 
bikerchickone said:
Sorry only just seen your post. What I mean is some yards won't allow overnight turnout in summer, others don't provide enough storage for full liveries to buy in the different feed their horses need etc. Didn't mean to worry you, just these are things I've come across talking to people about the barefoot route.

If you're on diy and able to turnout or stable as you wish then with enough patience you should be fine. I just remember the first few weeks when Dom came back as being quite tough because I needed to get everything in place and perfect ASAP, and it was hard work doing this on full livery.

You'll have much more control on diy so don't worry and I'm sorry if my post made you worry, I should've clarified sooner :o x
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Ah . . . thanks, this makes so much sense . . . thank you for clarifying :).

P
 
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