Navicular- any experiences, please help!

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Paint it Lucky

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(Also put this in new lounge but worried it will get lost in there!)

My friends horse has been diagnosed with severe navicular in both front feet. Her vet doesn't see much hope of recovery (mare has been lame for awhile, they've tried remedial shoeing and cortisone injections but neither have helped.) My friend has had a lot of bad luck with this mare, she bought her less than a year ago with hopes of going eventing but she started going lame in the summer (had problems with her hind suspensories and very accident prone in general (knocked herself in the field, cuts etc). She's not been right for a few months now and the coritsone injections into the feet were the vets last hope really. Vet now thinks she'll never come right and that she should be put down

But I know this vet and they are always very morbid like this, he has the view that if a horse can't be used for competition there is no point keeping it. He is also very traditional and not open to new ideas. I would really like to be able to offer my friend some good advice, she is going through a hard time at the moment, she had really high hopes for this mare (her last horse also got written off though she still has her, semi-retired in a field). I have heard of horses with navicular being really helped by going barefoot and am a big believer in the benefits of this myself, but my friend is sceptical and feels she should just do as the vet says. But as vet basically says there is no hope I don't see what she has to loose by trying? Horse though technically lame jumped out of her field last week and is still ful of beans and happy in herself, so it is certainly not a question that it is cruel to keep her alive. I know my friend would never take the decision of having her put to sleep lightly, more likely she will just retire her too and have two horses she can't ride. So I really need some good stories (if there are any!) to help her and to stop her losing hope! If anyone can help it would be really appreciated.
 
^^^^ This is definitely the best option although rehab is possible at home, I took on a mare a few years ago who'd had joint injections and was dog lame in bar shoes and 2 bute per day, the vet had strongly recommended that she be PTS, I think our progress was slower at home than it would have been at Rockley but this was her 12 months on..

IMG_5701hunt.jpg


And we'd done a few miles of roadwork to get to that field.

It really can make a huge difference but its all about arming oneself with knowledge, I've learnt more about my horses since starting the barefoot journey than I had in the previous 10 years!
 
I also would recommend Rockley farm, but please be aware that it is so much better if you have a vet who also believes that it is the best way forward.
One of the ways we are going to get through to farriers and vets that there are alternatives out there is to get them on board, and not by getting horses right and then turning around and saying 'I told you so'.

In order for barefoot to taken seriously as a way of treatment as well as a way of foot management is will be necessary to get the professions looking into the results of the horses they refer.
I now have loads of vets referring to me because they have seen the results of horses they have been involved with from the start.
Good luck to your friend what ever the decision
 
Moorman - my horse was at Rockley and they are taken on the basis of vet's referral though in cases like myself it is the owner who is making the first contact and asking the vet to refer.

Vets are encouraged to engage and get involved from the start and are kept updated all through the process but the sad fact is some are simply not interested.

Mine is one of those, before I even contacted Nic I asked my vet to look at the program (I thought because it was a proper research project he might take it more seriously) he wouldn't even look at it even if it was to explain to me why he thought he wouldn't work.
 
This is exactly what I am talking about, it is so important to have a vet that is willing to go forward with this horse, please don’t forget that the hippocratic oath taken by all vets is about the well being of the animal, It is very important that the existing treatment can be justify.

I have advised many clients to contact Nic Barker but have always insisted that they should do so with the vets blessing, if they don’t have it then I am always concerned about the relationship between the two parties.

On behalf of the horse, I always state in any lecture I give that if there is not a good team who all get-on behind every horse then it WILL suffer.
 
moorman said:
I have advised many clients to contact Nic Barker but have always insisted that they should do so with the vets blessing, if they don’t have it then I am always concerned about the relationship between the two parties.
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But if I had waited for my vet's blessing my horse would be dead now instead of in full work including jumping as we had got to the point that he couldn't even go out quietly in the arena without coming in non weight bearing.

I'm much more pragmatic and more interested in my horses welfare than my vet's relationship with anyone and the really worrying thing is that he isn't even the most closed minded vet around here, far from it.

It's a lovely idea to have all the vets on board but there'd be alot of horses not given a second chance if we all waited for it.
 
What I was trying to say (in the nicest way possible) is that owners should think long and hard about the vet they have.
It is often to late when there is something wrong to have the discussion as it seems in your case.
I can only hope that owners reading this thread learn the importance of having a vet/farrier that has an open mind and is willing to look at the well being of the animal over their own reputation.
I wish you all the luck in the world and hope all is well from now on.
 
You may be surprised to hear that I haven't changed my vet, he's a very good diagnostician and I do on the whole respect his opinion but I am also happy to challenge him and agree to disagree on certain subjects.

Being on livery yards you get to see lots of vets and form an opinion and he is the one I settled on after seeing the alternatives from the 4 major practices in the area

What upsets me is other horses not getting a chance and still being pts because the owners are not given the option or are too scared to go against their vet.

Just don't start me on Hertfordshire farriers ;)
 
criso said:
But if I had waited for my vet's blessing my horse would be dead now instead of in full work including jumping as we had got to the point that he couldn't even go out quietly in the arena without coming in non weight bearing.

I'm much more pragmatic and more interested in my horses welfare than my vet's relationship with anyone and the really worrying thing is that he isn't even the most closed minded vet around here, far from it.

It's a lovely idea to have all the vets on board but there'd be alot of horses not given a second chance if we all waited for it.
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I agree with you. Having everyone on board would be great but how much longer do horse owners have to wait for vets and farriers to catch up?? Indefinitely?.

Treating navicular and laminitis by barefoot methods is nothing new. It was being done successfully by barefoot people over 10 years ago. (and no doubt long before that)

If we had all waited for farriers to trim barefoot horses we would still be waiting in many cases. People didn't wait. They learnt to trim. If they had listened to farriers and vets many would have accepted that their horse just couldn't do barefoot. Instead they got on with it and learnt and spread knowledge about diet etc.

Some vets and farriers still seem to be in the stone age. They are hardly doing their best for the well being of the animal if they are not seeking out and embracing these methods.
 
My horse got diagnosed with navicular back in April '11.
He was lame on and off, no heat, no swelling, so went to vets for nerve blocks, and x-rays (as well as a full lameness workup).
He was on a course of Navilox, and followed my vets instructions to the letter. He had gel pads in his front shoes, however they caused abscesses in both front feet :( He's had them out now and is doing much much better.
Barefoot was never an option for him, never been discussed really.

Now he's full of the joys, and looking at him noone would think he had navicular. As long as we're careful we can do what we were doing before and look forward to the future!
 
caramel said:
My horse got diagnosed with navicular back in April '11.
He was lame on and off, no heat, no swelling, so went to vets for nerve blocks, and x-rays (as well as a full lameness workup).
He was on a course of Navilox, and followed my vets instructions to the letter. He had gel pads in his front shoes, however they caused abscesses in both front feet :( He's had them out now and is doing much much better.
Barefoot was never an option for him, never been discussed really.

Now he's full of the joys, and looking at him noone would think he had navicular. As long as we're careful we can do what we were doing before and look forward to the future!
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I'm genuinely pleased that your horse is now sound but that is the problem with horses that are treated with conventional methods - there is always the 'be careful' warning, 'don't jump' or avoid hard ground', we fully expect a horse that becomes sound from barefoot rehab to be able to work to the level it was at before or higher (with the exception of horses with secondary problems) with no avoidance of any terrain or activity.
 
thanks maggiesmum. The reason why we don't jump isn't because he simply doesn't enjoy it, he was a hurdler/NH horse but he doesn't enjoy it and I'm not going to push him.
All we were told was "don't hare about the countryside" but have been told we can do everything we were doing before and more, as long as his fit enough etc.
 
Hello!

I have not personally owned a horse with navicular disease but used to work in an equine hospital so have seen other people's horses with it! The standard treatment tends to be remedial shoeing, tildren, cortisone/hyaluronic acid injections etc. Just wondering - how was your friend's horse diagnosed? I'm assuming she's had X-rays but just wondering about an MRI scan.... if she hasn't improved after remedial shoeing she may have tendon/ligament damage which can take considerably longer to heal and can only be identified through MRI.

As for the whole shoeing/barefoot thing... I admit I am quite sceptical about barefoot but at the same time I think it is down to the individual horse; some horses get on with shoes and others are better off barefoot. Also agree with Moorman - SO important to have good communication between vet/farrier/complimentary therapist etc. :)

Good luck!
 
Sianage, shame you are sceptical about BF, you possibly haven't known anyone or had any experience of it. Generally, people who resort to BF because there is no other option except pts are converted rapidly, I mean within a few days of the shoes coming off they can see the benefits.
If you worked in an equine hospital, I can understand why you are sceptical as vets in general are not "on board" with the now successful and very well documented and practiced BF treatment of Navicular and mystery foot lameness - so sad for all the horses pts because of this scepticism.
 
Sianage said:
Hello!

I have not personally owned a horse with navicular disease but used to work in an equine hospital so have seen other people's horses with it! The standard treatment tends to be remedial shoeing, tildren, cortisone/hyaluronic acid injections etc. Just wondering - how was your friend's horse diagnosed? I'm assuming she's had X-rays but just wondering about an MRI scan.... if she hasn't improved after remedial shoeing she may have tendon/ligament damage which can take considerably longer to heal and can only be identified through MRI.

As for the whole shoeing/barefoot thing... I admit I am quite sceptical about barefoot but at the same time I think it is down to the individual horse; some horses get on with shoes and others are better off barefoot. Also agree with Moorman - SO important to have good communication between vet/farrier/complimentary therapist etc. :)

Good luck!
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Totally respect your opinion.

Have you read much of Bowker's research? When he found tendon and ligament damage with every case of navicular?

How do you differenciate between the horses that get on with shoes and those who don't?
 
I have not personally owned a horse with navicular disease but used to work in an equine hospital so have seen other people's horses with it! The standard treatment tends to be remedial shoeing, tildren, cortisone/hyaluronic acid injections etc. Just wondering - how was your friend's horse diagnosed? I'm assuming she's had X-rays but just wondering about an MRI scan.... if she hasn't improved after remedial shoeing she may have tendon/ligament damage which can take considerably longer to heal and can only be identified through MRI.
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Slightly altogether darker and more cynical take from me I'm afraid.

So many of the veterinary and farriery interventions are less than successful for the horse, many are traumatised, many are denied the chance to regain soundness and even loose their lives.

Who pays for most of this?

Usually (not always) it's the insurance companies. And we pay them. In the end of the day if the insurance money was not available most owners would jump at the chance to get a recovered and sound horse through a low cost, conservative, non invasive and non traumatising approach.

I don't do vet fees insurance any more - and I made sure my vet knew about it. Strangely the phrase "conservative approach" comes in more often than not and they know I will not sanction any of the surgical interventions. If any of my lads get colic badly enough to need surgery then I'll hold their hand at the end and know I've done the right thing rather than putting them through invasive surgery for my sake.

Instead I put the money into a separate account to pay for the vet fees I chose to pay for.

If we look back in 20 years, I wonder if we might judge that the equine insurance industry maybe did equine welfare any great favours.

Sorry.
 
brucea said:
Slightly altogether darker and more cynical take from me I'm afraid.

So many of the veterinary and farriery interventions are less than successful for the horse, many are traumatised, many are denied the chance to regain soundness and even loose their lives.

Who pays for most of this?

Usually (not always) it's the insurance companies. And we pay them. In the end of the day if the insurance money was not available most owners would jump at the chance to get a recovered and sound horse through a low cost, conservative, non invasive and non traumatising approach.

I don't do vet fees insurance any more - and I made sure my vet knew about it. Strangely the phrase "conservative approach" comes in more often than not and they know I will not sanction any of the surgical interventions. If any of my lads get colic badly enough to need surgery then I'll hold their hand at the end and know I've done the right thing rather than putting them through invasive surgery for my sake.

Instead I put the money into a separate account to pay for the vet fees I chose to pay for.

If we look back in 20 years, I wonder if we might judge that the equine insurance industry maybe did equine welfare any great favours.

Sorry.
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I agree with this.
I "self insure" and make sure the vet knows that I will be calling the shots not the insurance company. That way I get the precise treatment I want and not the treatment the insurance company thinks I want.
Such a shame that the barefoot approach to navicular is the last straw rather than the prefered course of treatment. It would save a lot of time.
 
When I opened my clinic I made a point of contacting all the major insurance companies and informing them that I would like to deal direct and not through the referral vet, all accept one agreed.
It was so much more rewarding having horses sent to me before others had had their 'bucket in the well' and as the results started to show the advantages in using different methods even the vets were aware that we have to act as a team all calling on each others knowledge for the good of the animal.
It was a system that made me a very rich man in every way but financial!!
 
It was so much more rewarding having horses sent to me before others had had their 'bucket in the well'
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Absolutely Moorman.

It is strange to see the vet's take on certain joint supplement white powders in tubs that cost a great deal of money change when they know you won't buy them. (e.g. the insurance isn't there to pay for them)

It's such a sad thing that the approach that works best, but brings in least revenue, is left to a last resort rather than being a first port of call.

Even better that you get these horses before the disastrous attempts at "treatment" have reduced their chances of recovery even further!
 
caramel said:
thanks maggiesmum. The reason why we don't jump isn't because he simply doesn't enjoy it, he was a hurdler/NH horse but he doesn't enjoy it and I'm not going to push him.
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Hadn't you ever wondered why he doesn't enjoy it and do you know the reason why he is an EX hurdler/NH horse? There is always a reason why animals do or don't do something, and that is if it causes discomfort - if possible don't do it, if it brings some sort of reward or pleasure, do it.
If he could talk, perhaps he would say jumping hurts.
 
Oberon said:
Totally respect your opinion.

Have you read much of Bowker's research? When he found tendon and ligament damage with every case of navicular?

How do you differenciate between the horses that get on with shoes and those who don't?
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Oberon, if I remember rightly you gave me some welcome advice when my girl was diagnosed with navicular in July 2011 but in her case there is no tendon or ligament damage which my vet said is very unusual although good news. She's still shod front and BF back as she's been for years and I'm pleased to say she's not on medication although she was given a new routine and thankfully she's sound :)
 
Hey,

Oberon - thanks, I haven't read any of Bowker's research but will definitely look it up - my dissertation is to do with feet so this will no doubt come in useful! Can you recommend me any particular bits of his research?? As for telling the difference - I don't really know! My dissertation has also involved getting follow up info from horses having MRI scans. I have had some people saying remedial shoeing made their horse worse and they were infinitely better with shoes off, and others saying after 3+ remedial shoeing cycles their horse was 100% sound and back hunting/jumping/eventing etc. As to why this difference occurs I don't know - the quest for knowledge continues!!

As for the insurance thing - I do think "self insuring" is a good idea, it means you can spend your money on what you want and don't have to worry about insurance companies paying up. MRI scans particularly bad for this - upwards of £1000 and a lot of insurance companies only pay half!!
 
My experience was quite some time ago and purely by accident. Some 18 years ago my horse was diagnosed with Navicular with Xrays, he was retired immediatley and then followed years of special shoes, pads etc to keep him field sound. I would like to point out that at this point the idea of having his shoes removed was unheard of however always having had rubbish TB feet he was prone to throwing shoes and managed to throw both at the same time (he must have had a fun day int he field that day!), as the ground was ever so soft and he didnt appear lame there was no hurry in replacing the shoes and when the farrier attended we decided that as he seemed comfortable (and I had most likely treated my farrier to his nice new shinny van with all of the special shoes I had paid for over the years) we made the bold decision to leave them off until the ground hardened up when he may have needed shoes. The shoes NEVER went back on and he remained field sound until he was PTS aged 33 (Still able to chase me up the field at a sprightly trot).

My point after all of that waffling is I am as sceptical as they come and if someone told me to take the shoes of I would have flat refused but the proof was in the pudding!
 
muff747 said:
Hadn't you ever wondered why he doesn't enjoy it and do you know the reason why he is an EX hurdler/NH horse? There is always a reason why animals do or don't do something, and that is if it causes discomfort - if possible don't do it, if it brings some sort of reward or pleasure, do it.
If he could talk, perhaps he would say jumping hurts.
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He stopped racing at 11 and a half, due to recurring nosebleeds when worked hard. We generally stick to flatwork and hacking which he enjoys. I don't jump him because he doesn't enjoy it, and it's no point stressing him out because of it. I would love him to speak, but we just generally avoid it.
 
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