Navicular - confused what to do

[stan]

I am sorry to write another post on Navicular but I have read through many of the posts on here and none of them really seem to be the same diagnosis as what my boy had been given.

My horse was diagnosed with 'navicular' in October 2011. He was fine up until then, working and competing in dressage and doing very well, then suddenly, he was lame. There was no gradual onset or pottery gaits, he just went lame. The vet never really thought that it was navic because of the sudden onset. He was 1/10 lame when first diagnosed, was sound when trotted on hard ground but slightly lame on near fore when trotted on the soft. He was referred to Leahurst for an MRI scan, this showed and inflammed bursa, no changes to his DGFT and and increased bone density of his navic bone, not the normal degeneration. His off fore leg is clean. Leahurst recommended remedial farriery, steriods into the bursa and turnout in a confined paddock. i followed the instructions of both my own vet and Leahurst. He had eggbars put on (these are redone every 5 weeks), steroids into his bursa and turned out after a week.

His lameness got worse, I couldn't get hold of my vet for days so I changed to a new vet as I needed urgent advise.

The new vet came and my horse had gone from 1/10 lame to 3/10 lame. He carried out a number of nerve blocks and he thinks that there is also damage to the DGFT as he came sound when he nerve blocked this area. New vet recommended a course of IRAP therapy and box rest. He has now been on boxrest for 3 months and I am walking him everyday, with a little bit of trot in straight lines, both ridden and long reining. He is sound at the moment.

I have been debating with the idea of him going barefoot but with him being sound at the moment and him having the IRAP I am worried about undoing all of the hardwork that has been put in in getting him sound. On the other hand I am concerned about the long term prognosis of my horse.

I have approached the barefoot subject with both vet and farrier and both disagree, they both said that because he has increased bone density of navic bone and not bone degenration the increased blood flow to the foot would not do him any favours. His affected foot is also contracted and I have been told that this will never go back to normal, just possibly get smaller which also concerns me.

I just want to do what is best for my boy and am really confused as to what to do. I spoke to a couple of barefoot trimmers in my area (North west) and neither of them could provide me with success stories of navicular and going barefoot. i have been onto Rockleys website and their findings are great, my only question would be to look at how many navicular cases have success barefoot compared to those with shoes on, many barefoot advocates have success but there doesn't seem to be that many numbers compared to those who have shoes on.

I would also be interested to hear what arena surface suits your horses the best. My horse seems to struggle on some surfaces compared to others.

Sorry for rambling on, but would love to hear some opinions of both barefoot navic experiences and of those whose horses are shod.

Many thanks.

 

[TPO]

I'm sorry to hear about your horse.

I have a long saga of navicular with 2 of my mares that were ultimately put to sleep. This was on vet's advice. I asked about barefoot, and actually had started transitioning the first mare (a QH) barefoot before I switched to this equine practice, but my vets were completely against it. They advised my QH be shod in eggbar wedges immediately which I duly done as it's programmed into us to trust/believe/respect the vets.

With my second mare (a year later) the lameness came on suddenly. She was a TB and had previously had an operation on her off pastern (turned out to be a foreign object). I thought the lameness was off fore due to pastern but turned out to be bilateral with navic in both fores (but worse in near fore). With hindsight this would have been caused by the time compensationg for off fore while original practice tried to figure out (unsuccessfuly) what was going on.

My TB was taken to new practice for x-rays and advanced navicular was diagnosed (8 out of 10 according to the practice). They also said it would have taken at least 9mths to get to this stage. This was June 2010. That practice had seen her trotted up as I felt there was "something" going on Sep/Oct 09 and said she was fine it was my imagination. After losing the QH I moved out of their catchment area with TB. I had another vet check her out in March 2010 and he said Kissing Spines and spavins. I got her referred to the Vet hospital where she was fully worked up and they said absolutely no KS and sound in April 2010. So I really feel like I can't trust anyone. They labelled me as "paranoid" and wouldn't listen when I said there was something but by that point there was no where left to turn. I moved back to my original place April 2010. Had original vets back out June 2010 on the Friday and she was pts on the Tuesday

The options were denerving or buting her to the eyeballs and just waiting for her to breakdown. I didn't think either of those options were ethical or humane and I loved the bones of her and didn't want her to suffer. I asked my vet about barefoot and he said it wouldn't help at all as her feet were balanced.

Looking subjectivily at her feet now I can see that off fore was more upright and near fore flatter and more spread - ties in with compensating for pastern etc. I can't believe that I just trusted my vet/didn't see it for myself and that they couldn't see the inbalance. They are just that set against barefoot. I also always had the recommended farrier out to them every 6wks religiously so that they never had the long/short cycle and their feet were kept as close to constant as could be.

Looking for more whips to flog myself with over losing my "one in a million" I searched navicular on here as the "barefoot taliban" were always so vocal on it not really being a thing and that going barefoot would nearly always bring the horse back into full work. If you search back my posts you'll find the thread.

I read the replies on the thread and bought a few barefoot books. I read them in tears as they all pointed to "navicular" not having to be a death sentence.

If I'd only brought my mare home that day and googled (as I know I would have) she'd have been at Rockley Farm before you could say "Eric Gillies".

That's the guilt I have to live with and it's heartbreaking. I feel so awful.

Reading the barefoot books, websites & blogs made a lot of lightbulbs come on for me. I have to say that now I find the idea of shoeing barbaric yet I happily held all my horses for well over 20 yrs to get shod and didn't think a thing of it. It's just what you do.

When I got my new horse he was from the field and the first thing I done (this was Aug 2010) was shoe him as that's what a horse going into full work needed...

He had 2 sets of shoes before I took him barefoot. It hasn't been easy as he has compromised feet and my vets do not support my decision at all. I've struggled more than you'd believe with trimmers (one who done nothing but try to sell me stuff and one who lamed my horse) and I did try to find a farrier to use just to gently rasp my horse but those I've spoken to or heard from have all said horses can't be ridden barefoot as their feet wear away to nothing. I find it scary that someone's who's job is "feet" doesn't even understand the basics of their anatomy and function.

I'll be eternally grateful to CPTrayes who kept on banging her head against my brick wall. I know sometimes the "barefoot taliban" can seem quite over bearing with their instance and it used to REALLY annoy me but I "get" it now. It's all rooted in frustration as they know of several horses with death sentences and chronic lamness that have come back sound to full work by successfully transitioning them barefoot. It's all said/typed with the best of intentions.

I get where you are coming from as vets/farriers say one thing and it's just installed in us to believe them as they are the trained & qualified experts. It's really hard going against the grain and the sense of abandonment isn't a nice one. I'm convinced it's worth it and that by going barefoot with my current horse that I'll have extended his life and lessened the chance of him breaking down. I think in shoes they would have masked his issues until it was too late.

I think this is a decision you have to reach yourself. Before I was ready to take the info on I used to read the posts by the "BT" while rolling my eyes and shaking my head; as if barefoot could fix all that they claimed?! But once I started that thread and then the bought books (Pete Ramey, then Jaime Jackson followed by Feet First), like I said, the lights came on for me.

The joy of hindsight. I just hope by posting things like this, even though I'm setting myself up to be judged, that my mares didn't die in vain and it might help owners faced with similar dilemas.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[stan]

TPO I just want to say a big big thank you for your reply, it made me cry literally as I can understand completely the dilema that you must have been faced with. This is the reason why i am confused. I am thinking that trying him barefoot is the right thing to do, but just so scared just in case I cause more problems as hes sound at the moment. It is so hard knowing what to do for the best for them. You did what you thought was right by your mare and I would have done the same, I bet she had a fabulous home with you because like me, you will try whatever possible to make them comfortable. I really appreciate you taking the time to tell me about your experience as its stories like this that will help me to decide what the best route to take is.

Good luck and thank you x

 

[TPO]

Thank you for your kind words.

I 110% say try barefoot. It more than likely won't be easy or a quick fix but I believe it to be the best option. Hopefully CPTrayes and the others in the "barefoot taliban" will see this thread and give more indepth and constructive advice.

The way I see things now, and it definitely wasn't always this way, is how can shoes help? How can nailing metal rims to the bottom of a 500kg+ animal help anything? At best it is a "mask" as they reduce blood flow and therefore feeling. They stop the foot being able to function as it should. They increase concussion while greatly reducing the ability to absorb concussion. People say they are "needed" over stoney ground but I can't get my head around how a steel rim less than 1" thick protects the foot; what happens when the stones/rough ground have a depth greater than 1"? I could go on but won't; the information is out there for the reading for anyone that is interested.

I would say that the main thing I've learnt is that the horse (and nature) know what is best for it. It may not look "pretty", and Rockley Farm blog have quite a few examples, but the horse needs to grow the foot he needs not always the symmetrical T-squared foot we've been trained to think of as good. If you read the Rockley Blog look up the "table leg" post. That hit home for me.

It's definitely not easy going against the advice of your vet. I actually went out shadowing mine and they diagnosed navicular after a nerve block and spoke to the owner about starting on steroids for the horse. Shoes/barefoot aside what was completely obvious to me was that the horse's feet were long and overdue shoeing and the feet weren't balanced at all. Maybe it's just me but perhaps some (most?) of our vets put through a "programme" aren't able to actually see (much like I looked at my mare's feet and legs daily yet it didn't register that her odd feet were an issue) what's in front of them and things are done "by the book"...

and yes I do realised I have to stop using quotation marks in every senstence!

Again, good luck whatever you decide.

Best wishes

 

[Merlin11]

I look after a horse with navicular and he has been without shoes for some years now. He is not ridden but lives happily out and only occasionally comes up lame which he seems to recover from in a couple of days after rest and bute. I find him being out all the time and moving seems to help him . He gets worse if stabled for more than a day or so. I am not an expert by any means but hope this is of some help.

 

[amandap]

This article might help you sort things out in your head. http://hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm
Read the frog article as well.

I've no experience myself but it must be so hard sorting out the wheat from the chaff. x

 

[paddy555]

TPO, just read your post of 11.03 and it is the most amazing I have read for a long time. So sorry about your mares but you have done the right thing to try and help others.

 

[cptrayes]

TPO please, please do not blame yourself. You took the advice of experts who simply don't know enough themselves. There is no fault whatsoever in you trusting people who you paid to give you a professional's advice.

Stan, this is your current problem. The plain and simple truth of the matter is that you cannot trust your vets or your farrier when they say that barefoot will hurt your horse. Many, many horses have had the same said about them, which has been proved incorrect time and again by unreasonable owners like me

Yours is also the second in six months who I have known diagnosed by a major hospital after MRI as being without soft tissue damage but which actually DID have soft tissue damage. Soft tissue damage ususally responds extremely well to a barefoot rehab.

You are in such a difficult situation. If your horse was lame it would be easy, as you would have nothing to lose. But he is sound, and you have much to lose. I have no idea what choice I would make in your situation, with your level of knowledge. All I can do is say that we are here if you want to ask us any specific questions, and that I really recommend that you read everything that you can lay your hands on about a barefoot approach and the mechanics of the horse hoof and you will see for yourself why it might be likely to offer a better long term prognosis for your horse than remaining in shoes.


ps you are in the North West. If you want to see the rehab which I did I can arrange it with his current owners. He was 24 hours from a lethal injection because of his quality of life when I took him on. He now hunts and wins National showing classes I can also show you a Rockley rehab locally who used to belong to me too.

 

[Oberon]

I am sorry to write another post on Navicular but I have read through many of the posts on here and none of them really seem to be the same diagnosis as what my boy had been given.

My horse was diagnosed with 'navicular' in October 2011. He was fine up until then, working and competing in dressage and doing very well, then suddenly, he was lame. There was no gradual onset or pottery gaits, he just went lame. The vet never really thought that it was navic because of the sudden onset. He was 1/10 lame when first diagnosed, was sound when trotted on hard ground but slightly lame on near fore when trotted on the soft. He was referred to Leahurst for an MRI scan, this showed and inflammed bursa, no changes to his DGFT and and increased bone density of his navic bone, not the normal degeneration. His off fore leg is clean. Leahurst recommended remedial farriery, steriods into the bursa and turnout in a confined paddock. i followed the instructions of both my own vet and Leahurst. He had eggbars put on (these are redone every 5 weeks), steroids into his bursa and turned out after a week.

His lameness got worse, I couldn't get hold of my vet for days so I changed to a new vet as I needed urgent advise.

The new vet came and my horse had gone from 1/10 lame to 3/10 lame. He carried out a number of nerve blocks and he thinks that there is also damage to the DGFT as he came sound when he nerve blocked this area. New vet recommended a course of IRAP therapy and box rest. He has now been on boxrest for 3 months and I am walking him everyday, with a little bit of trot in straight lines, both ridden and long reining. He is sound at the moment.

I have been debating with the idea of him going barefoot but with him being sound at the moment and him having the IRAP I am worried about undoing all of the hardwork that has been put in in getting him sound. On the other hand I am concerned about the long term prognosis of my horse.

I have approached the barefoot subject with both vet and farrier and both disagree, they both said that because he has increased bone density of navic bone and not bone degenration the increased blood flow to the foot would not do him any favours. His affected foot is also contracted and I have been told that this will never go back to normal, just possibly get smaller which also concerns me.

I just want to do what is best for my boy and am really confused as to what to do. I spoke to a couple of barefoot trimmers in my area (North west) and neither of them could provide me with success stories of navicular and going barefoot. i have been onto Rockleys website and their findings are great, my only question would be to look at how many navicular cases have success barefoot compared to those with shoes on, many barefoot advocates have success but there doesn't seem to be that many numbers compared to those who have shoes on.

I would also be interested to hear what arena surface suits your horses the best. My horse seems to struggle on some surfaces compared to others.

Sorry for rambling on, but would love to hear some opinions of both barefoot navic experiences and of those whose horses are shod.

Many thanks.

This is Schoko who is on my yard in Blackpool. He has been sound ever since
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

Barefoot - done PROPERLY works.

It just works.

No matter what vets, farriers or 'failed barefooters' might say. It works.

We still have Ross Barker travel to us in the NW all the way from the Shetland Isles as we just could not replace his expertise

I've even pimped him out to Cumbria now too

 

[Zuzan]

TPO am so gutted for your loss.. and a very thoughtful post... TPO's experience is as she says why the BT are so vocal .. I am a bit of fraud as my mare has been barefoot since birth I see barefoot as a PREVENTATIVE as much as a cure.. so have not really the experience of re-habbing that the true BT have.. but I would really really urge you to look at the Rockley Farm blog and website and the link Amandap posted above.

TPO if you're post saves one more horse I hope this helps in some way with your loss.

 

[tallyho!]

Stan, hope you don't mind another BT replying to your post... but mine was also a navic case (and a laminitic/diabetic) who now performs better than ever barefoot so I shout loudly about barefoot too because of my experience. My farriers (paid several "Specialists" hundred of pounds a time on "remedial shoeing") all said it would never work and "especially" since he has white feet (I now laugh at this every time someone says a lack of pigmentation is paramount to paper hooves ) but he shocked everybody. At least I had a supportive vet... some of my friends under same vet are now barefoot too.

Pete Ramey & my lovely EP saved his life

TPO, so sorry to read that... hadn't followed all your story..

 

[Daisy2]

Hi There, I know how you, feel my horse was diagnosed with Nav syndrome, vet wanted to put wedges and all sorts , I asked about barefoot and he said it would probably make him worse. I decided to go against his advise and take of the shoes, that was two years ago and he has been sound ever since, was like a miracle because at one point he could not even walk, it was pitiful to watch, and likes yours the onset was quite acute. He wears cavello boots always when out hacking and today we just completed a 3hr hack. My mare has front shoes on with no problems but this spring she also will be barefoot and cavello booted. Oh and he is trimmed by the farrier, although he trims the frog which I wince at he does seem to do a good job.

Good luck

 

[stan]

Thank you very much to everyone for your replies, it has made my decision a little easier hearing about your success stories, especially with those cases that barefoot has been a last resort. When I bought Junior over from Holland I never used to have shoes on him but he used to paw at the ground and it started to wear his feet down quite a lot, due to this I decided to have his shoes put back on, I wish I never had. You live and learn, sometimes unfortunately the hard way. I just hope that I can do the right thing by him now. Thank you for the articles that you have posted for me to read, I am going to read them this evening and am also going to order Peter Rameys book. We are back at the vets this coming Friday for his next IRAP, I am going to speak to my vet again and let him know my wishes.

Thanks once again for all of your support.

CPTrayes, I would be very interested in the cases that you talk about, would it be possible for you to pm me with a bit more info and what area the horses are? I am in Cheshire, but I work all over the North West.

Will keep you all posted

 

[foxy1]

Just to say there was a horse on my yard diagnosed with Navicular and damage to the ddft in the foot, prescribed remedial shoeing by Sue Dyson at AHT, no improvement and horse was put to sleep. Owners wouldn't entertain barefoot as Sue Dyson hadn't recommended it.
So sad.

I don't believe there is any scientific evidence that proves the shoeing of horses with navicular makes them sound.

 

[soulfull]

When my horse went lame I was convinced it was Navicular. So I did mega research and had decided no matter what vets and farrier said that I would go barefoot.
It turned out to be PSD and not navicular. He has just had surgery. However I feel he is still a navic horse waiting to happen so will still be going down the barefoot path and have already had his front shoes taken off and altered his diet in preperation cptrayes has been extremely helpful and patient with me
I am however still struggling to find a good farrier/trimmer in my area!!!

 

[Goldenstar]

I do not envy you this dilemma at all the problem in a nutshell is that we are brought up to trust vets and farriers but in truth in this area I think it's often the vets and farriers that are a large part of the problem.
The thing is very difficult to cast yourself a drift from them and in essence go it alone if they will not support you.
I have four horses one is barefoot he is not at all like yours as he is a sound horse it's a longish story but without this forum I would never have tried and he's going better than ever.
But I don't think my relationship with the vet will everbe the same again.
With the farriers I feel with the navi horses the very person who contributed the main part of the horse getting navicular gets to surgically shoe it and that. Sits uncomfortably with me.
Only you can decide but finding a good trimmer is key and that's hard when you are new to it
I wish you well and whatever decision you make and however it works out you are a good owner in a difficult position .
Read ,study go back through old threads look up web sites buy books.
Barefoot is not easy at first I spent hours leading mine around over all the different surfaces I could find you really need to invest time but once your 'in to it 'it's easier.
If I ever had a horse with navi symptoms the first thing I would without doult is take the shoes off.

 

[tallyho!]

Stan, you are so right. It was a last resort. That makes it even sadder!!!!

I now think the first resort should be to remove shoes and see how goes - but way before this... I think owners and specialists should look to diet...

My new girl will never be shod as long as I can help it - I'm pretty confident I can though now I know the secrets lol

 

[pines of rome]

I read all this and would still like another shot at barefoot, it didn,t work first time round, my boy has an old navicular fracture! This is what the vet said.
Examine at trot up, comfortable with percussion, favours proximal stride in front.
Radiographs show low heel, Navicular scerosis LF,RF possible change on pastern joint.
He said shoe him with eggbars, which worked for a while, have just tried eponas on him with glue, he looked heaps better straight away, but they came off the next day so the farrier nailed them on and this made him un comfortable on his navi foot, he has also managed to pull these off even with over reach boots on 24/7.
I really don,t know what to do, maybe put him back in wraps for a while he did very well in them!
Any advice please, I really don,t want to pts!

 

[Oberon]

I read all this and would still like another shot at barefoot, it didn,t work first time round, my boy has an old navicular fracture! This is what the vet said.
Examine at trot up, comfortable with percussion, favours proximal stride in front.
Radiographs show low heel, Navicular scerosis LF,RF possible change on pastern joint.
He said shoe him with eggbars, which worked for a while, have just tried eponas on him with glue, he looked heaps better straight away, but they came off the next day so the farrier nailed them on and this made him un comfortable on his navi foot, he has also managed to pull these off even with over reach boots on 24/7.
I really don,t know what to do, maybe put him back in wraps for a while he did very well in them!
Any advice please, I really don,t want to pts!

With BF you have a few options.

1) Rehab at Rockley Farm (contact Nic Barker to discuss if she thinks she can help).

2) Rehab yourself with a reputable BF specialist who has experience.

3) Rehab yourself with your current hoof care provider and learn as much as you can to guide the hoof care provider.

When "it didn't work" previously - do you know why?

Was the diet addressed?
Was the hoof care provider trimming sympathetically?

You can post pics on a separate thread and the Barefoot Taliban can have a look to see if there are any glaring problems......

You will need to invest in boots (and possibly pads) to get you started.

 

[Oberon]

I do not envy you this dilemma at all the problem in a nutshell is that we are brought up to trust vets and farriers but in truth in this area I think it's often the vets and farriers that are a large part of the problem.
The thing is very difficult to cast yourself a drift from them and in essence go it alone if they will not support you.
I have four horses one is barefoot he is not at all like yours as he is a sound horse it's a longish story but without this forum I would never have tried and he's going better than ever.
But I don't think my relationship with the vet will everbe the same again.
With the farriers I feel with the navi horses the very person who contributed the main part of the horse getting navicular gets to surgically shoe it and that. Sits uncomfortably with me.
Only you can decide but finding a good trimmer is key and that's hard when you are new to it
I wish you well and whatever decision you make and however it works out you are a good owner in a difficult position .
Read ,study go back through old threads look up web sites buy books.
Barefoot is not easy at first I spent hours leading mine around over all the different surfaces I could find you really need to invest time but once your 'in to it 'it's easier.
If I ever had a horse with navi symptoms the first thing I would without doult is take the shoes off.

I agree with what you have said and I would also bounce Feed Companies into the 'axis of evil'.

So many unsuitable feeds causing so many hoof, digestive and behavioural problems

 

[Goldenstar]

OP would it be an option to rehab ar Rockley ?

 

[pines of rome]

I had a DAEP work with him for 10 months, his feet outwardly looked good, but the foot with the old fracture always seemed to be the problem and he sid he couldn,t really do any more for him! I do have boots and pads, I have been turning him out in them and bringing him in at night to take them off.
But he was never very good being ridden in them, it felt as if they were heavy and awkward for him, I think the eponas might work if we can keep them on!

 

[amandap]

Thank you for the articles that you have posted for me to read, I am going to read them this evening and am also going to order Peter Rameys book.

If you're buying his new text book it is very dense. Work your way through his articles in the mean time.

I wish you and your horse the best.

A very moving post TPO which I'm sure will help owners and horses. x Vets and farriers really do need to open their eyes and listen to horses.

 

[Oberon]

I had a DAEP work with him for 10 months, his feet outwardly looked good, but the foot with the old fracture always seemed to be the problem and he sid he couldn,t really do any more for him! I do have boots and pads, I have been turning him out in them and bringing him in at night to take them off.
But he was never very good being ridden in them, it felt as if they were heavy and awkward for him, I think the eponas might work if we can keep them on!

It's very easy to make a hoof look nice.

It's not so easy to help a hoof function comfortably

 

[pines of rome]

Yes, I think you are right, too much trimming, he probably needs to grow a foot that suits him, my real worry is that because of that old fracture, which looked like it had a spur on it on the x.ray would barefoot still be an option for him as I read on here, I think Cyptes wrote her only failure was a case like this!

 

[amandap]

The too much trimming is imo a big problem for horses. Continually shaping/trimming frogs and trimming bars at every trim, for example is not going to help. I've just been reminded of Pete Ramey's current thing about bar trimming (not trimming actually!) which had gone into the back of my brain but it just makes sense!

It seems to be a human thing that we are right and we have to control and of course we know better than the horse...

 

[Oberon]

Yes, I think you are right, too much trimming, he probably needs to grow a foot that suits him, my real worry is that because of that old fracture, which looked like it had a spur on it on the x.ray would barefoot still be an option for him as I read on here, I think Cyptes wrote her only failure was a case like this!

I would ask as many people as possible who have experience of rehabing BF cases before your admit defeat. No one person has all the answers.

 

[Goldenstar]

yes you need learn to go with the horse not have perfect foot my boy seems to want a slightly squarer shape to his feet on one side ( the outer one) he was on the yard when the vet came to do vacs last week and she looked at him and said we need to X-ray those I thought he's sound I'll savemy money at the moment thanks and ignored her.
trimmer was happy with it just said some do that.

 

[pines of rome]

It dosen,t help , not getting any support form vet and farrier and I only have one EP in my area, so if anyone knows of someone else they could recommend that covers West Sussex, perhaps you could let me know!
Thanks for your help.

 

[Oberon]

It dosen,t help , not getting any support form vet and farrier and I only have one EP in my area, so if anyone knows of someone else they could recommend that covers West Sussex, perhaps you could let me know!
Thanks for your help.

http://www.barefoot-south.com/barefoot-trimming-coverage.php