Navicular experts - PLEASE HELP!

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rakaman

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My 10yo Grade B SJ mare has just been confirmed with navicular disease - had xrays, blocks, scans etc & definite diagnosis. She's sound trotting in a straight line but very lame bilaterally trotting on a circle. Whilst I know that it's incurable I understand that it is manageable to a certain degree with the aim of keeping her pain free and fairly functional although I accept that she won't compete at her current level.
This is my first experience of navicular disease and I need some realistic advice from those of you that have experience.
From the information that I've gleaned from the web the general consensus is that barefoot is the way to go but unfortunately my mare won't cope barefoot living on our flinty ground. I've read various reports on Epona, Easywalker, Nanoflex & Equiflex flexible shoes as the best alternative to barefoot - does anyone have any feedback on these and maybe a cost guide?
Are there any feed supplements that I could feed to help her? Currently she's on Newmarket Joint Supplement and NAF Biotin.
If it comes to the worst and she needs to be retired completely would it be a problem to breed from her - some people blame bad foot balance and shoeing for navicular and some people think it's hereditary. I know many people breed from mares with navicular but would I be breeding a foal which is definitely going to end up the same way?
Any advice would be great as I just need to know what to do for the best.
 
Firstly I understand what you mean about not coping barefoot - my TB never would so on the advice of vets and farrier he has remained shod.
Would I breed from a horse with navicular? No. There is no definitive answer either way as to whether navicular is hereditary but I wouldn't run the risk. Did the scans show any soft tissue damage as well as often this can be the case?
 
I don't think I would risk breeding either... There are lots of new studies into navicular due to the use of the MRI and being able to assess the foot while the horse is still alive, but I still think there is some percentage they put down to being hereditary (from what I have read).

It all depends on what type of navicular your mare has, and how the vet believes it has been caused. Navicular can be caused by poor foot balance putting constant strain on the ligaments around the navicular (my mare injured her impar ligament) which then result in 'navicular' itself for example.
 
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Firstly I understand what you mean about not coping barefoot - my TB never would so on the advice of vets and farrier he has remained shod.
Would I breed from a horse with navicular? No. There is no definitive answer either way as to whether navicular is hereditary but I wouldn't run the risk. Did the scans show any soft tissue damage as well as often this can be the case?

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Why did your vet and farrier think your horse would never cope barefoot? I find this a bit depressing - all horses can cope barefoot given the right diet and environment. Is there a horse born in the wild that needs shoes to get around? The physiology of a domestic hoof is no different to a wild hoof - the difference is in the way we keep horses - bad diet/environment.

I don't believe any of the conditions diagnosed as navic syndrome are hereditary. They don't occur in the wild. It is a man made condition. But if you breed from a horse with navic syndrome and shoe the offspring in the exact same way then you may well end up with another horse with navic.
 
Did your vet mention your mare having Tildren treatment. I have attached a factsheet from a random site (not endorsing George Vet Group). Tildren is useful in cases of bone spavin and also Navicular from what I can remember. My horse has had two lots of Tildren now, each were £350-£400 a time but I was covered on my insurance. He is due another one later this month before my claim runs out.

http://www.georgevetgroup.co.uk/equine/TILDRENfactsheet09.pdf

As for foot support/shock absorption Equipak I believe it is called is a filler (like a bath sealant type of application) that is done by your farrier with the horses normal shoe being put on top as normal. It is quite expensive (can't remember how much) but think £30 per two feet, but this could be helpful. I'm sure if you google it you will find info about it. The farrier puts a strip of polystyrene on the bottom of your horses sole, tapes it on but leaves a gap at the heel, inserts the nozzle of the Equipak into the cavity (it dries in 30 seconds) and then the polystyrene can come off (its just to stop the Equipak coming out when inserted). It is meant to last an entire shoeing, and would work quite well, but I found in my horses case this was dependent on the surface he was turned out/worked on. He would walk across a flinty track to be turned out at the yard for example and after a couple of weeks it would be worn down, or he would scrape his foot on a flinty surface and the Equipak would wear down. This was the case with my horse, my friends TB it worked quite well on.
 
A friend of mine used Tildren on his showjumper, for Navicular (his horse was actually one of 10 who trialled the medicine before it was licensed in Italy) and calls it 'miraculous'.
 
Tildren is good, but as stated above, rather pricey.

I think most problems have a risk of being hereditary..... but not everything definetly is. if you talk to your vet about it I am sure they will do a bit of research and asking around to get a general concensous for you as to whether or not it is a good idea.
However, remember if you did breed from her, the pressure of a stallion on her, or the additional weight of a foal might induce additional pain on her already sore feet. Not saying thats a reason not to breed just to remember you may need additional care and pain management for her.

Id ask that question to your vet
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Navicular horses can survive. Ok they wont be top class show jumpers or anything but it is managable with medication and pain management and diet etc.

My horse had equipax on. they were good, but they run the risk of if dirt or anything is trapped underneath the pack then it can cause infectio nand bacteria to brew ---> thrush, abscesses and other nastys (just as a warning)

Sorry your girl has got navicular, but at least you aren't writing her off (which is nice to know!
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Firstly I understand what you mean about not coping barefoot - my TB never would so on the advice of vets and farrier he has remained shod.
Would I breed from a horse with navicular? No. There is no definitive answer either way as to whether navicular is hereditary but I wouldn't run the risk. Did the scans show any soft tissue damage as well as often this can be the case?

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Why did your vet and farrier think your horse would never cope barefoot? I find this a bit depressing - all horses can cope barefoot given the right diet and environment. Is there a horse born in the wild that needs shoes to get around? The physiology of a domestic hoof is no different to a wild hoof - the difference is in the way we keep horses - bad diet/environment.

I don't believe any of the conditions diagnosed as navic syndrome are hereditary. They don't occur in the wild. It is a man made condition. But if you breed from a horse with navic syndrome and shoe the offspring in the exact same way then you may well end up with another horse with navic.

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My horse would never cope because he has paper thin soles and low lying pedal bones. Truth be told, in the wild he'd have not lasted two minutes, but he's a TB and they don't run wild, they're breed for domestic use. If you take his shoes off he's crippled and it's not something diet or environment would fix. Yes maybe if I left him for six months they would harden up but my vet and I believe it's not humane.
 
In my experience, there is a vast gap between going shoeless and going barefoot. Sadly most vets and farriers don't seem to understand the difference, so many owners don't either.
 
My boy has Navicular syndrome. It is the Navicular Bursa that is affected in both his fronts, but as there are quite a few things that can go wrong with the Navicular bone and the surrounding areas it is now classed as a syndrome rather than a disease. When they were diagnosing him he had no changes to the bone itself, whereas my best mates horse, who also had Navicular had changes in the bone but the other parts were ok. So there's alot to it!!
Whereabouts is your horses problem?

Riz had remedial shoeing and a course of Navilox. Neither got him sound so he actually ended up having surgery where they cut the nerves to the feet. This is a neurectomy. In some horses the nerves never grow back. The majority of horses nerves grow back in around 18 months. Riz's grew back in under 4 months.....the vets had never heard of this happening so quickly. Gutted :-(

After that it was decided to retire him and keep him on a sachet of Danilon a day. Nearly 4 years later, he is paddock sound and very very happy.

I really do feel for you - it's a tough thing to go through. My mates horse came reasonably sound just with remedial shoeing. They are all so different!

As for barefoot - yes in an ideal world they would all be able to handle this, but my boy has rubbish heels - and as the navicular pain comes from the heel I don't think that this is something I would be prepared to put him through. The bar shoes he has on give him lots of much needed support so I really wouldn't want to take that away from him.

Sorry for the essay - best of luck with your horse and well done for not giving up on her! xx
 
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In my experience, there is a vast gap between going shoeless and going barefoot. Sadly most vets and farriers don't seem to understand the difference, so many owners don't either.

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That is because there is not a difference to be understood. The bl**dy definition of being barefoot is not wearing shoes.
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OP, please don't get caught up with the natural barefoot disciples, just treat you horse as an individual and I hope you find the approach that suits it best.
 
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In my experience, there is a vast gap between going shoeless and going barefoot. Sadly most vets and farriers don't seem to understand the difference, so many owners don't either.

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That is because there is not a difference to be understood. The bl**dy definition of being barefoot is not wearing shoes.
crazy.gif
smirk.gif


OP, please don't get caught up with the natural barefoot disciples, just treat you horse as an individual and I hope you find the approach that suits it best.

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Ditto x
 
Yes but just taking off the shoes won't instantly strengthen the inner structures of the foot! It takes time to develop a foot properly just it takes time to develop any other part of the horses body - so actually there is a massive 'bloody' difference between a strong working barefoot hoof and one that had the shoes taken off 5 minutes ago!
 
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That is because there is not a difference to be understood. The bl**dy definition of being barefoot is not wearing shoes.
crazy.gif
smirk.gif


OP, please don't get caught up with the natural barefoot disciples, just treat you horse as an individual and I hope you find the approach that suits it best.

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Of course there's a difference - why don't you try reading around the subject rather than just continue with a blinkered view?

For optimum hoof health you have to do so much more than just take the shoes off. Diet and environment is vitally important. When was the last time your farrier advised you on your horse's diet? Or enquired about the environment he/she was kept in?

There's nothing mystical or disciplish about it - it's simply optimum horse care - treating the horse as a horse, remembering where and how it evolved and utilising that knowledge to get the best possible performance, not just from your horse's feet but from the horse as a whole. Who wouldn't want a healthy happy horse?
 
Humpty Dumpty, my friend's TB was in a very very similar situation to yours. He had just gone A-grade when he went lame and was diagnosed with navicular.

There were no options that would keep him going apart from trying barefoot so, with the help of a vet who specialises in hoof and lower leg problems and also knows how to do a natural trim, she took him barefoot.

Within about six months his flat, thin-soled feet had transformed themselves and he was back to jumping and sound again. Barefoot really does work, and it really is an option for navicular horses.

If you can keep your horse comfortable until her feet have had a chance to strengthen and develop concavity and a good callous, by using hoof boots and pads for rough or uneven going, then you should not find she is footsore. Going barefoot will involve certain changes in management and also a bit of time each day walking on tar roads to strengthen the feet.

You have to be prepared to slow down your riding for a few months until the feet are healthier, but at the end of it you will in all likelihood have a sound horse who will be able to compete for a good few more years.

It might be worth finding out whether there is a vet in your area who could advise you on this and work with your farrier or trimmer to ensure your horse is trimmed and her feet rebalanced in a non-invasive way.
 
Regarding boots, I have had personal experience with Cavallo boots as well as Easyboot Gloves. The Gloves are awesome because they fit so well, are a dream to put on, and look good. I still use them on my two barefoot horses if we are riding over very stony ground and they need a bit of extra protection in front.

The Cavallo boots are heavier and more solid, but I used them at the beginning of my own horses' transition to barefoot and they were great. If you use the Cavallos I would advise using them with the gaiters as otherwise sand does get into the top of the boot.

Both types are very hard-wearing and seem to last a long time.
 
Every responsible horse owner considers their horse's management. The fact is the words "barefoot" and "unshod" mean EXACTLY the same thing.

Whichever term you use, you have to consider the horse's diet and environment, you didn't invent anything new there, you know, dress it up whichever way you want. Farriers always ask what the horse will be doing and recommend supplements and topical treatments to help feet.
 
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OP, please don't get caught up with the natural barefoot disciples

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Absolutely blinkered advice there Humpty - do get involved wih tthe KNOWLEDGEABLE and EXPERIENCED barefoot people who know what works and how to support the horse- I would recommend that you talk to Nic at the web address I posted earlier - she can show you horses who have had real progress you can see with your own eyes.
 
Dear Flame, for the record here's a written quote from a farrier :

“For the conditions of navicular and founder, shoeing is at best a band-aid and at worst the reason that these conditions become chronic. The only way to reverse these problems is to encourage the foot to return to its natural biomechanical function, and in doing so return the natural healing blood flow back to the foot”.
* Written by Steve Karshner in this week's Easycare News

Please Humpty, go to the Rockley Farm website just for a looksee. And perhaps Flame, you should too before you hurl any more scathingly irresponsible remarks out there. Us barefooters don't claim to know everything but believe me, those of us who have underaken the journey, be it through a last-chance-corrall decision from seeing our horses suffer from agonising lameness, or just a nagging belief that it's the better way to go, we've all learnt that the way to a successful healthy barefoot perfomance horse isn't just about whipping the shoes off. And if you seriously think it is, then perhaps you aren't qualified to participate in this thread.
 
I'll be less harsh in my words than barefoot4 - but there is a core of barefoot people in this country who are observant, open minded, non-religious barefoot fanatic types, and committed to trying to do he best things for our horses whilst openly acknowledging that none of us has the monopoly on the truth. I've been a sceptic, but gone and seen the evidence for myself.

I can't recommend highly enough the benefit of seeing what can be achieved with crippled horses first hand!
 
I can't comment on the barefoot debate but you might be interested in my own experience. My then 14yo endurance gelding was diagnosed in May 2004 with bilateral navicular disease. He was treated for 3 months with Navilox, which had no effect, and was then given an intravenous dose of Tildren, then available only as a trial in the UK but quite highly regarded in France, where they claimed a 60% success rate. Sadly, we were one of the 40%. The vets didn’t recommend further Tildren as he had not responded at all to the first course. He was shod remedially and had a minimal daily dose of bute for nearly 4 years. I rode him occasionally - we even did the odd Pleasure ride, but only on soft ground.

About a year ago my farrier stopped the remedial shoes as he said the heels had risen and spread so ordinary shoes would be fine. I also stopped the bute to see what would happen. For about 6 months he was rideable on soft surfaces but then started to feel a little uncomfortable again. I was reluctant to put him back on bute in case it masked other problems, so he is now fully retired and is field sound.

Even if it was possible, I would be reluctant to breed from my horse, because the vets attributed some of the cause to his very short and upright pasterns and boxy feet.
 
Flame, yes and no. The words might mean the same thing but the connotations are definitely different. Barefoot, to me, means a horse that has functional bare feet, while unshod means "without shoes" and in a way this also suggests lacking the "necessary protection" of shoes.

Some farriers trim a barefoot hoof as if it was about to have a shoe put on it. This will prevent the development of the callous and will make the horse more sensitive after trims. For this reason it is very important to find a farrier or trimmer who understands barefoot (as opposed to unshod!), because they will be able to trim the hoof for barefoot functionality rather than for shod aesthetics, and will probably have more advice to give about the specific diet and lifestyle for promoting healthier bare feet.
 
Hi humpty dumpty Iam defo no expert but I had my horse diagnosed with navicular in April, she's a exracer and the lady i bought her off had pretty much just had her in a field for a year and i doubt her feet had barely even seen a farrier in that time. After having her 6 months and her not feeling right I had the vet out and once he had looked at the x rays he automatically said was she insured for loss of use because her navic bone had bone spurs and lollipops ( iam sure someone knows the proper word but i was in shock as he told me).
I have decided to go down the barefoot route after speaking to a few people . In 6 months her feet have changed so much they are so much stronger and are naturally growing more upright and becoming more concaved. I found diet to be a big influence as my horse was looking a little under weight so gave her some speedibeet and within 4 days her feet had started to flatten! She is happy in walk on all surfaces and trotting for short distances on the road but she cant handle circles yet, fingers crossed when she has a whole new foot she will be better.
I decided to go down this route because it seemed the most logical for my horse, I havent needed any hoof boots yet so cant comment on them. If its advice your after and your considering barefoot look up performance barefoot and rockley farm. Pete Rameys website is also a good one :-)
hope this helps
 
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