Navicular experts - PLEASE HELP!

[rakaman]

My 10yo Grade B SJ mare has just been confirmed with navicular disease - had xrays, blocks, scans etc & definite diagnosis. She's sound trotting in a straight line but very lame bilaterally trotting on a circle. Whilst I know that it's incurable I understand that it is manageable to a certain degree with the aim of keeping her pain free and fairly functional although I accept that she won't compete at her current level.
This is my first experience of navicular disease and I need some realistic advice from those of you that have experience.
From the information that I've gleaned from the web the general consensus is that barefoot is the way to go but unfortunately my mare won't cope barefoot living on our flinty ground. I've read various reports on Epona, Easywalker, Nanoflex & Equiflex flexible shoes as the best alternative to barefoot - does anyone have any feedback on these and maybe a cost guide?
Are there any feed supplements that I could feed to help her? Currently she's on Newmarket Joint Supplement and NAF Biotin.
If it comes to the worst and she needs to be retired completely would it be a problem to breed from her - some people blame bad foot balance and shoeing for navicular and some people think it's hereditary. I know many people breed from mares with navicular but would I be breeding a foal which is definitely going to end up the same way?
Any advice would be great as I just need to know what to do for the best.

 

[Oberon]

Have you had a member of the UNKNHCP assess her for barefoot? I would look deeply into barefoot before discounting it entirely.
A navicular horse on our yard who had tried the 'traditional route' and never been sound is now perfectly sound and happy barefoot.
Properly transitioned and booted, flinty ground isn't a problem.

 

[Parkranger]

Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!

Has your vet not given you any ideas re. remedial shoeing? My boy has navicular changes since the new farrier decided to take it upon himself to change how he was shod while on loan. I have his front toes taken off, natural balance and the shoe is place quite far back so that he has complete support on his heels. So far, since being shod how he should be, he's sound as a pound. Unfortunately I've paid over £600 in vets fees just to realise that I know how my horse should be shod!

As far as i knew, navicular is a trauma problem, not passed on?

 

[Oberon]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!

Has your vet not given you any ideas re. remedial shoeing? My boy has navicular changes since the new farrier decided to take it upon himself to change how he was shod while on loan. I have his front toes taken off, natural balance and the shoe is place quite far back so that he has complete support on his heels. So far, since being shod how he should be, he's sound as a pound. Unfortunately I've paid over £600 in vets fees just to realise that I know how my horse should be shod!

As far as i knew, navicular is a trauma problem, not passed on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I must go and tell all the navicular horses who have been helped by going barefoot that it doesn't work.

There is some research being conducted into the results of going barefoot for navicular.

http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/research.html

At least get your horse assessed by a real professional before discounting it.

 

[Flame_]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!

As far as i knew, navicular is a trauma problem, not passed on?

[/ QUOTE ]
Barefoot is not the worst thing to do. Navicular covers multiple conditions/injuries within the foot which manifest themselves as heel pain. There is no definitive treatment, different things have different results with different horses.

Lots of navicular cases are successfully managed without shoes. If your horse doesn't suit barefoot, you are doing the right thing researching various methods of remedial shoeing including glue on shoes.

Sorry I don't have anything very helpful to add, except that I think you are already on the right track with the options you are looking into and to say the jury's still out on whether navic is herediary. IMO, it partly is as it is more prevalent in some breeds than others, however individual foot conformation, life-long foot care, work done, and with some injuries pure bad luck, are all factors.

 

[Storminateacup]

Navicular disease is now referred to more commonly as Navicular Syndrome, with there being many possible causes ranging from concussion,poor limb conformation, thin soles, dropped heels, ligament strain, heriditary factors etc etc.
Possibly this is why there are many different and effective methods to resolve or cure the problem, both long and short term.
Having had and lost a much loved friend (ID/TB)with this depressing condition I can only say that we tried Natural Balance Shoes, pads and various exercise programs to alleviate the problems, but ultimately nothing worked and he was in constant chronic pain finally being PTS after a year of treatments. He had no signs of navicular bone porosity or cysts on "X" rays or MRI scan and his heels were not collapsed. To look at his feet you would think he was perfect, but he did have rather thin soles.

I wanted to try him barefoot but at the time was advised against it.
From what I`ve heard it works for some, not for all. I often wonder if I had been allowed to try if he would still be alive today , that was five years ago and he would only have been 14 now.
There is so much more available to horses with this condition, that I would explore everything available.
Good luck and I hope you find what works best for your horse.

 

[michelleice]

my boy has it hes on natural balance shoes and corta flex and sound

 

[mrdarcy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but I totally disagree with this statement. Horses that are never shod NEVER get navicular syndrome - it's a totally manmade disease. The best thing you can do for your navic horse is to go barefoot. There is a fabulous range of boots on the market to help your horse cope on flinty or stony ground whilst transitioning.

If you want to read up about how barefoot has helped many horses written off by vets and farriers then visit www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/research.html

The farrier/vet's usual answer is eggbar or heart bar shoes to help support the heel and reduce pain. Whilst this might reduce pain in the short term and result in a seemingly sound horse this really is just masking the problem. If, as in true navicular, the navic bone has started to degenerate then this is caused and further exacerbated by the blood supply in and around the foot being compromised. Blood circulation in the foot is already compromised by normal shoeing - the metal shoe severly limits the degree to which the hoof capsule can expand and contract. It's this expansion and contraction that pumps blood around the hoof feeding all the internal structures, including the navic bone. If you put eggbar shoes on then the whole foot is totally encased in a metal framework reducing the natural expansion and contraction to zero - further reducing the quantity of blood pumped round the foot and thereby accelerating the negative processes withint the foot structure.

Take the shoe off, make sure the horse gets plenty of movement and the circulation in the hoof will start to improve immediately. Get a good trimmer to make sure the hoof is balance and the toe is a natural length. The natural shape of the hoof is a short toe and a low but structurally strong heel. Yes horses with navic syndrome have collapsed heels because of heel pain. Once the pain is reduced/removed the horse will once again use the hoof as nature intended and start heel first landing - this will in turn stimulate the heel and strengthen it.

Given time to transition your horse will cope fine in the field with the flints. You may or may not always need hoof boots to ride on flinty going but that's no hardship.

Plastic or rubber shoes are better than metal for the health of the hoof - if you can get them to stay on. For glue to set properly in this country the hoof needs to be very dry (dry off with a heat gun) and the ambient temperature when gluing the shoes on really needs to be much warmer than an average British autumn or winter day.

I lost a horse years ago to navic - the knowledge and experience since learned by the natural trimmers, especially Jamie Jackson in the US - would have given my horse a second chance. I wish I'd known then what I know now as back then I was only given two options - de nerve him or put him down.

 

[soloequestrian]

You might find it interesting to have a look at he research of Robert Bowker - he is an American researcher who has been looking at navicular horse for years. I don't have personal experience of navicular but I do have three barefoot horses. They all wear boots for work on stony ground - if you are interested in boot options, have a look at the EasyCare website. I've also heard good things about Cavallo boots.

 

[Jericho]

I have a horse with navicular syndrome - his problem probably originates from collapsed heels. Because of this we at the moment can not go barefoot but he is an excellent farrier using natural balance shoes and he is better than when first diagnosed, just about sound in a straight line but 3/10 bilatarelly on a circle. He too had no changes to navicular bone or evidence of cysts so there might be soft tissue damage. We are giving him a year off to try and sort his feet out and will then reassess then but I suspect he will only ever be a light hack.

I would discuss with your farrier the best option for YOUR horse - hoof boots may be an option if you only turn out during day.... Barefoot might be an option after a period of adjustment and hoof hardening. Plastics most definitely an option.

It sounds like you are doing everything you can. Good luck

 

[Riverboy]

My boy has navicular (along with some other things) and we tried a variety of treatments with him.

Has your vet recommended Navilox? We had this to start with and it did help - he had to come off all drugs due to a stomach ulcer.

We tried the egg bar shoes but they did not show any improvement. We eventually went bare foot but he is trimmed every 4 weeks (5 weeks and he is lame). He does have trouble with stones and gravel getting into his white line which we are currently working on, and it is a constant battle to keep him sound - but then he was lame on a straight line as well as a circle and like i said has other complications (he was 7/10ths lame in all four legs at one point).

We gave him 18months off and it did seem to help on a good day now he's 0.5/10ths lame on a bad 2/10ths lame. He isnt really up to much work though - we do 10 to 30 min gentle work in a straight line (maybe 2 to 4 min trot work the rest at walk) we've tried introducing more but he gets excited and then pushes himself and goes lame.

Wishing you all the best and if you ever want to chat/support PM me...

In my boys case he has good confirmation but the vet/farrier think it was caused by too much work as a youngster that caused the bone spavin which in combination with reoccuring undiagnoised ulcers caused the navicular...

T xx

 

[DollyDolls]

I know of a horse that has it, been given a drip from the vet (unsure of name) & change in farrier & horse is the soundest it's ever been. Speak to your vet again & explore the options.

As far as I know it's quite a new drug that in this case has bought the horse loads more time & a quality of life. It's not cheap, but the insurance is covering.

 

[cptrayes]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!


[/ QUOTE ]


I'm sorry but this answer re barefoot is complete and utter rubbish. Barefoot, properly done, has already cured dozens of horses up and down the country. A question on UKNHCP's forum will soon root you out plenty of cases of navicular horses hunting and jumping after being given a death sentence by their farriers and vets. Barefoot, done properly, is a surefire way to rebuild the back of the foot where weakness is causing the syndrome. I don't know where this poster got her evidence from , but I can tell you for a fact that s/he's wrong.

 

[Teagan]

Drug you are thinking of is called Trilden - only available under licence by certain vets I think ... may be worth finding out more about it ... supposed to have very good results.

 

[Spottyappy]

I am another one who wouldn't have barefoot for navicular. My horse was diagnosed with suspected navicular as a 5 year old, and had a loss of use claim paid.He is 15 now and in more work than ever. Did have navilox initially followed by egg bars, but even in a confined space he pulled them off! Now, however,if he isn't regularly shod, with ordinary metal shoes,every 4-6 weeks, he goes unlevel.Touch wood, the secret seems to be the regular shoing- not allowing the foot to grow too much(fat chance as he barely grows any foot anyway!) and to let the farrier do his job!Also, the xrays should be shown to the farrier, as there was also other things to take into account showing on them, such as the alignment of the pedal bone, and this allowed the farrier to shoe accordingly.The only concession I have to make is to give his feet a rest for 2/3 months through the winter as he pulls shoes off in the thick clay mud we get here and that does seem to affect him, partly because he wrecks his slow growing hoof which weakens it....and partly as it seems to allow the hoof some time without work to recover. Good luck with your mare, and if you are lucky enough to find what works best for he, I am sure you will still enjoy many years of fun with her.

 

[TequilaMist]

I'm not disputing what your saying as don't know that much about navicular but friends 6 yr old has navicular had never had shoe on until diagnosed with navicular and had remedial shoes.Shoes didn't help much now barefoot but getting worse.Navicular is reason horse was never broken in so never ridden either.

 

[mrdarcy]

Unfortunately though all horses are born with a foot structure as nature intended the environment within which that foal grows up can prevent a strong and healthy hoof structure from developing. In the wild a newly born foal will be quickly on its feet and immediately covering long distances over rocky and dry terrain. This hard ground underfoot stimulates the hoof to grow and develop a strong and balanced structure. The young horse's diet consists of a vast array of stemmy or dried grasses, herbs etc which also allows the foot to develop a strong structure.

Domesticated foals often have a very different upbringing. Foals or youngstock that are kept stabled or barned cannot move around enough to develop a naturally strong and structured hoof. Even youngstock out 24/7 will generally be out on soft terrain - European fields - which do nothing to stimulate natural hoof growth. Also the diet of the domesticated youngster in Europe will be mostly green grass - far too rich in sugar for ideal development of a healthy hoof structure.

All these conspire to produce young horses with less than perfect hooves - shoeing is not to blame for these horses but domestication - diet and environment. The same holds true for a horse with great barefoot hooves - the trim is only a small part of producing hooves that can perform well. Diet and environment are hugely important. It's true that some horses are more metabolically challenged than others - and that may well be genetic. The metabolically challenged horse is more sensitive to unsuitable diets and cannot tolerate any sugar in their diet without becoming footy. These horses have to be removed completely from grazing, into a dry lot, forage being completely from hay. These horses can even show reactions to processed feeds - flash dried grasses can be brutal. Much the same as some humans are diabetic or allergic to certain foods some horses have to be managed incredibly carefully.

I still ride past beautiful lush green fields and think - wow my horse would love it in there. But I now know that green fields - lush or not - really aren't the best thing for horses and in an ideal world my horses would live on a dry lot 24/7. Something that looks like this: http://easycareinc.typepad.com/from_the_horses_mouth/2009/09/transition-tuesday-week-19.html

Roll on global warming

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!


[/ QUOTE ]


I'm sorry but this answer re barefoot is complete and utter rubbish. Barefoot, properly done, has already cured dozens of horses up and down the country. A question on UKNHCP's forum will soon root you out plenty of cases of navicular horses hunting and jumping after being given a death sentence by their farriers and vets. Barefoot, done properly, is a surefire way to rebuild the back of the foot where weakness is causing the syndrome. I don't know where this poster got her evidence from , but I can tell you for a fact that s/he's wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yup...I know of a horse who hunts with navicular and barefoot!

To the OP ... PM maggiesmum on here.

She keeps her horses with me, all barefoot.

We will be taking one of them hunting again this weekend (our third time out together). She was crippled with Navicular in April and pretty much a "hopeless case" until maggiesmum took her on.

I think what she's achieved with her is nothing short of miraculous. I am sure she can help with questions.

 

[nicbarker]

Just got back from taking a navicular rehab from here on his first day's hunting - what a little star he was

Hooves can and do change - there is masses of evidence for that but its not about shoes vs barefoot, and unshod horses can have "navicular" as well as shod horses.

If you want to see how thin soled, flat, weak TB feet can change in 4 months, have a look at http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/ftopic1191-0-0-asc-dexter.php Dexter

That horse is the "Dexter" who inspired Project Dexter, which is our navicular rehab project, which others have already posted about. I don't think that there is any other rehab for navicular which has an 80% success rate, but do let me know if there is...

Nic