Navicular in the young high value competition horse - WWYD?

[Andiamo]

Hi all,

I have a friend, a professional rider, who has just found out her top quality youngster, 4 years old has navicular changes, navicular syndrome.
He's a big lush Hanoverian that she bought as a foal, and has invested all her heart, time and energy into this gorgeous chap. He should have been in her Grand Prix ride for the future...he looks the part, and she is an excellent rider / trainer.

As you can imagine, she is devastated, and can't really think about solutions right now, because she is so upset by it all. She knows he won't be suitable to compete at high levels, and therefore is thinking of re-homing him, as a recreational ride / hack / unaffiliated / low-level dressage ride...since she is not a happy hacker. She would "gift" him on the right person, but would need assurances, a contract, that states that he is not to be re-sold (to avoid unscrupulous types from trying to make a quick quid or two). The horse will be fine for low level dressage, he is not lame, and has never been lame, she is just a highly sensitive pro rider, and felt when riding, that something wasn't 100%, and she always calls the vet straight away if she thinks something might be wrong. And anyone taking this horse on would be fully aware of the issue, and would be provided with the last 3 years worth of xrays, and vet reports etc, so they could keep an eye out for any changes. He's a super quiet lad out hacking, he never spooks, he's very gentle and sweet, and he is a big, stunning, young Hanoverian.

What are the chances, do you think, of her finding someone who would want to take him on, knowing that there are navicular changes which could potentially rise up in the future? They would need to positively manage his feet with corrective shoeing etc, and then, as research into Navicular disease shows, it may not be an issue for many years.... But obviously, the horrible reality, if she doesn't find someone who would take him on, is that he will be PTS in the autumn, which would be tragic.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on her being able to find someone to offer a home to this chap, where he can enjoy a good few years of low level training, and hacking? He is 4, and already trained / working and competing at Novice level (can do some elementary exercises), completely trained by her, a professional female rider. He has been in same home since a foal.

Your thoughts/ ideas are appreciated.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Hi, I had a similar story with my last horse, although with the main difference being I'm probably not a patch of the rider/ trainer that your friend is. Anyway I spent pretty much my life savings on my "dream" Spanish horse, he was beautiful, the sort you drool over on posters as a child and I was smitten. I imported him in spring 2012, by the summer he was winning at royal Windsor and was himself turning into a really nice dressage horse with the help of my trainer, as gorgeous as he was he couldn't do much more than a very tense piaffe when he first came home!
About 18 months later he went lame overnight for no apparent reason, we box rested him and on walking out inhand he seemed better but as soon as did anything more he'd be hopping lame. Got vet out and pretty quickly nerve blocks confirmed the pain was foot related, some more xrays later, a few hours nailbiting wait and I got the call id been dreading but deep down expected, he had advanced navicular in his right fore with tendon lesions, and the left was showing changes also. I was as your friend totally devastated, the vets couldn't give an exact prognosis without an mri (and without insurance I didn't have an extra grand to spend) but he pretty much said horses with this level of deterioration rarely get beyond field sound even with treatment.
Once I'd got past the initial shock and heartbreak (I probably cried for days) I started to think fragmatically about it, and could I really afford, or want to keep a horse that was costing me £600 a month just in livery that I could never ride again. Lots of soul searching and asking friends advice later I decided IF I could find him somewhere that he could live out the rest of his days as a field ornament, and at the very best be a happy hacker then that's a better choice for him than with me where subconsciously I'd always be pushing to try and make him rideable again, which may not have even been possible not in his best interests.
Luckily for me through my trainer we found such a place very quickly, as I'm sure you can imagine the idea of me advertising this gorgeous Spanish horse as 'free to a good home' frankly sent chills down my spine as to where he'd end up no matter what assurances were given. We went to meet this lady who had her own land and about 5 other horses, it didn't take long to see that she was genuine and her statement that if she could ever ride him it was a bonus, if not she'd just admire him from her kitchen window sold it to me. A week later we returned with him on board and it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, we did a sale for £1 to make it official and drew up a contract stating he wasn't to be sold on, I was to be informed if he had to be pts etc etc. Nice to have but I don't know how enforceable it would be with the 'sale' of him having taken place.
The funniest thing is he's defied the vets and is now doing more than happy hacking, I believe he's competing at novice dressage and has been totally sound for the last year. Of course am happy about it but it does year me up slightly inside that I gave up on him too soon and he could've still made a decent riding horse for me if id taken the time, he's certainly a long way from the inevitable death sentence the vet made me believe, if I'd had even a glimmer of hope I'd probably never have given him away but that's something I'll have to live with.
Sorry not sure how much help I've been just wanted to share my story so your friend knows she's not alone and it's a horrible thing to happen to anyone. I personally wouldn't advertise him, at least not on the big sites as she could leave herself open to the same people I was desperate to avoid, contract or not you never really know what your getting and she'd be better trying to find someone she knew, even indirectly than going down the advertising route. Also if it's more local there's the benefit of staying in touch which unfortunately didn't work out for me as she lives 400 miles away. They do surprise you though, and although he may not cope with top level dressage a lot of them manage more than happy hacking so he'll have plenty to offer the right rider.

 

[Andiamo]

Thanks Natwood, that's given me some insight. Good to know as well, that he is still being ridden, and is not just a field ornament. Yes, my friend is exactly the same in her thinking, that it costs so much per month to keep him, that it wouldn't make sense to pay all that money every month for a horse she can't ride (to the extent that she would as a highly successful comp rider). So she would like him to go to someone she knows, but at the same time, she doesn't want anyone to know what's going on, because of her professional status, she's worried people might blame her for the horse having this problem, and she's too heartbroken to deal with that...yes, lots of tears for her too, it's really broken her. So, I am going to try to help her, since she is too fragile right now to take action...she also was not insured, and has several thousand worth of vet's bills in a pile that she will struggle to pay...it's a very hard situation. But who knows, maybe she will get lucky like you did, and her horse will find a lovely home like that for himself Here's hoping

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I see that you are in Germany, but it still would be worth getting your friend to contact Nic at Rockley. If the scans could be forwarded too that would be great.

If you have the time, reading these old posts about Project Dexter (navicular cases treated with a bf rehab at Rockley, generally after other treatments have failed, or have only helped temporarily) will give you a good idea of their work.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=+project+dexter

 

[Andiamo]

thanks Faracat, she's thousands in debt with vet bills now, for the diagnostics, and can't afford any more investment, especially when she knows he won't be suited to Grand Prix level. Transport to /from UK would cost about £2,000, which simply isn't in the bank. Also, she has read long-term studies on various treatments, but they were all on recreational horses, not top level competition horses...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I was actually thinking that she could try to rehab him herself, but with advice from Rockley (I should have stated that really). They are very helpful and you don't need to have their track set up to succeed.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

Things in Germany and Austria may have changed a bit since I was there 20 years ago but is he stabled full time and shod? If so, I would seriously look at barefoot rehab. Especially if he is in the very early stages the changes may well be reversible. But if he is kept at livery in a big dressage yard that option may simply not be on the table.

 

[sheep]

You could give the rehab a go - nothing to lose - princesssparkle on here and her sister nikkiemariet both compete at a high level of dressage on unshod horses (not unshod because of problems, but just an idea that it can be done). Good luck.

 

[TheMule]

If the horse is sound in work then a navicular diagnosis is possibly a bit of a red herring, unless an MRI has been done to assess the soft tissue structures. Many vets now accept that the navicular bone can look pretty horrendous but the horse is sound and performing well. It's the associated ligaments/ tendons which are often causing the issue.

 

[ycbm]

Has this diagnosis been given on the basis of x rays alone, or an MRI scan? If on X ray alone, there is a very, very high possibility that all the horse has wrong is minor foot imbalance which can easily be corrected by a period working without shoes, and allowing him to dictate what shape his feet should be, since he is not lame. His feet may look balanced on a ray, but that does not mean that they balance to the rest of his skeleton the way he needs. Navicular bone changes on a ray mean absolutely nothing unless they are extremely severe, they simply don't correlate with lameness. The cause of the lameness is almost always soft tissue changes, which can be reversed. Do please get your friend to look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com, and look at the annual reunion reports where she will see horses with much worse diagnoses than hers doing cross country and show jumping.

I've been gifted two long term unrideably lame horses for a pound. They both came sound in months with barefoot rehabs.

 

[Palindrome]

An interesting article you can may be pass on:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.html

I think it's a very good thing that your friend acted very early as it would probably make the rehab much easier. One of the most important things is that the horse has a heel first landing.

ETA: I am sure that she will find an amateur wanting to take him on also, the horse sounds like a star.

 

[ycbm]

If the horse is sound in work then a navicular diagnosis is possibly a bit of a red herring, unless an MRI has been done to assess the soft tissue structures. Many vets now accept that the navicular bone can look pretty horrendous but the horse is sound and performing well. It's the associated ligaments/ tendons which are often causing the issue.

This, unless the horse goes unsound when one front foot is nerve blocked. What you have described could be caused by the start of psd, spavins, sacroiliac strain, kissing spines, and a host of other things. If the horse doesn't nerve block unsound, and she hasn't an mri scan, then she's giving him up prematurely.

Tell her also that in this country, a contract never to sell him isn't worth the paper it's written on. What's she going to do if someone does, sue them? For what loss? The horse was worth what she sold him for at the time, by definition, so there is no loss to sue for.

 

[Leg_end]

My horse was diagnosed with navicular three years ago and I sent him to Rockley. He's been sound ever since and X-rays show improvement. I keep a close eye on his feet and the damage is improving over time. We event at the moment but my dressage trainer expects that we will get to at least advanced level in the future.

If your friend is serious about gifting him please PM me.

 

[Kat]

It would be worth her speaking to Rockley, it would be worth it if it meant she didn't have to give up her dream of GP dressage with this horse. There is no reason why he couldn't do GP barefoot, as someone mentioned a Princesssparkle on here got to GP with her barefoot ex-racer and her sister has a barefoot ex racer at AM. It might be worth her speaking to them too.

A barefoot rehab would improve his prospects no end. He could at least then be rehomed as more than just a happy hacker.

 

[Kat]

Also look up posts on here frpm Leg_end (i think that is her name) she has a horse called Buddy who waa diagnosed with navicular and following a barefoot rehab is back in work including competing.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's very sad but she where she is .
In her position I would defiantly take the horse shoeless and see where she gets .
However it's only worth doing this if she can give the horse in management terms what he needs to give it a fighting chance of working .
He will turn out and lots of gentle movement and Input of time and the right sort of trimming .
IME she would need to give it eighteen months before she could judge if the approach was going to work for them .
However I can say that defiantly the BF approach can work for this type of horse because I have seen for my self it can bring lame / not right horses right .
I would advise that your friend gets a copy of the feet first book by Nic Barker to give her an overview of what the BF approach is about .
The about BF it's time and attention to detail that makes it work so in terms of cost apart from some tweaking of the diet which might cost more depending on how the horse is being fed now however you won't be paying the shoes .
If the horse where mine or came to me I would be looking at turning him out on my friends hill farm in a huge field and trimming his feet every fortnight and giving him a year for nature to do it's work .
It took me a while to get my brain around that horses don't always need shoes when working .
All the horses I own would happily do the dressage horses job without shoes .

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

definitely give barefoot a go-its not going to cost anything except a bit of time and research.

he needs to be out for at least half the day though and she needs to be able to hand walk him on tarmac as well as the arena and on grass, to stimulate the foot. it wont work if hes stood in a stable all day every day.

she will also need to alter his diet if hes getting a lot of starch and sugar currently.

my last horse competed to inter 1 and schooled to GP with no shoes, NMT's fig is competing adv medium and training PSG and the new 3yo Goofy is intended to go all the way to GP hopefully barefoot too.

 

[crabbymare]

Would she consider turning him away for a year unshod? I know someone in Germany who has a place where they live out all year and its not expensive. he could have time and see how he goes and especially at his age could possibly still make her a high level horse as long as she is prepared to have him kept on an unshod regime and to find somewhere he can have more turnout and stimulation for his feet than the average competition yard over there

 

[Andiamo]

This, unless the horse goes unsound when one front foot is nerve blocked. What you have described could be caused by the start of psd, spavins, sacroiliac strain, kissing spines, and a host of other things. If the horse doesn't nerve block unsound, and she hasn't an mri scan, then she's giving him up prematurely.

Tell her also that in this country, a contract never to sell him isn't worth the paper it's written on. What's she going to do if someone does, sue them? For what loss? The horse was worth what she sold him for at the time, by definition, so there is no loss to sue for.

She's had everything checked, it's the Navicular on the xrays that is the main cause for concern, but thanks for pointing out the other potential offenders!
The point about a new owner not selling on, it's a tricky situation, a bad person could sell this horse on for big money, which would be absolutely unfair to all involved. She isn't insured, and although the mri sounds like a good investment, she's on a small income, self-employed, and up to her neck in bills already. If she could afford it, she'd buy him new legs! but money is an issue now...thanks for your response

 

[Andiamo]

Would she consider turning him away for a year unshod? I know someone in Germany who has a place where they live out all year and its not expensive. he could have time and see how he goes and especially at his age could possibly still make her a high level horse as long as she is prepared to have him kept on an unshod regime and to find somewhere he can have more turnout and stimulation for his feet than the average competition yard over there

yes I suggested that yesterday to her, a year in the field, barefoot, but he is a stallion...she is worried no one would take him. Would your acquaintance consider a well behaved stallion? He has only been stabled since last autumn, when brought him in from his childhood place to start working with him. He gets daily turnout, he is out most of the day in a big paddock. It's the new xrays compared with last years xrays that show the changes. So, sure stabling may have contributed. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, it is appreciated.

 

[crabbymare]

I dropped you a pm, it may be possible but would need your friend to have a chat to her. alternatively personally I would have him gelded which I know is not over popular for dressage but it would mean that whatever the outcome he would find it easier to get a place where he could be kept unshod but if he did rehab and go back to her he would not lose a great deal of his sparkle for high level dressage. just throwing thoughts out as I do know the files are reducing there at the moment so IF that was the option it would be a good time to proceed. its worth her having a chat though and seeing if they could work something out

 

[Andiamo]

I see that you are in Germany, but it still would be worth getting your friend to contact Nic at Rockley. If the scans could be forwarded too that would be great.

If you have the time, reading these old posts about Project Dexter (navicular cases treated with a bf rehab at Rockley, generally after other treatments have failed, or have only helped temporarily) will give you a good idea of their work.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=+project+dexter

Thank you, I have just written an email to Nic to explain the situation, and ask for any thoughts on what she should do.

 

[Andiamo]

Things in Germany and Austria may have changed a bit since I was there 20 years ago but is he stabled full time and shod? If so, I would seriously look at barefoot rehab. Especially if he is in the very early stages the changes may well be reversible. But if he is kept at livery in a big dressage yard that option may simply not be on the table.

He is kept in a lovely quiet place, small yard, great facilities, he is out all day every day in a large paddock. Stabled at night. It's not the norm though, I know what you're saying!

 

[Andiamo]

Has this diagnosis been given on the basis of x rays alone, or an MRI scan? If on X ray alone, there is a very, very high possibility that all the horse has wrong is minor foot imbalance which can easily be corrected by a period working without shoes, and allowing him to dictate what shape his feet should be, since he is not lame. His feet may look balanced on a ray, but that does not mean that they balance to the rest of his skeleton the way he needs. Navicular bone changes on a ray mean absolutely nothing unless they are extremely severe, they simply don't correlate with lameness. The cause of the lameness is almost always soft tissue changes, which can be reversed. Do please get your friend to look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com, and look at the annual reunion reports where she will see horses with much worse diagnoses than hers doing cross country and show jumping.

I've been gifted two long term unrideably lame horses for a pound. They both came sound in months with barefoot rehabs.

Thank you, yes it was on the basis of xrays only. I've been in Germany a year, and all the horses I've seen are too long in the toe, and I was concerned about this style of farriery, seems to be the norm here, long in the toe and low slung heels. Maybe an incorrect balance is what has brought on the changes, since he has only been shod since last autumn. Before that he was running free at a stud, with his friends, enjoying his childhood. It does seem to be related in the timing. In his yearling xrays, the feet were 100%, and Klasse 1 (textbook quality in Germany).

 

[Andiamo]

It's very sad but she where she is .
In her position I would defiantly take the horse shoeless and see where she gets .
However it's only worth doing this if she can give the horse in management terms what he needs to give it a fighting chance of working .
He will turn out and lots of gentle movement and Input of time and the right sort of trimming .
IME she would need to give it eighteen months before she could judge if the approach was going to work for them .
However I can say that defiantly the BF approach can work for this type of horse because I have seen for my self it can bring lame / not right horses right .
I would advise that your friend gets a copy of the feet first book by Nic Barker to give her an overview of what the BF approach is about .
The about BF it's time and attention to detail that makes it work so in terms of cost apart from some tweaking of the diet which might cost more depending on how the horse is being fed now however you won't be paying the shoes .
If the horse where mine or came to me I would be looking at turning him out on my friends hill farm in a huge field and trimming his feet every fortnight and giving him a year for nature to do it's work .
It took me a while to get my brain around that horses don't always need shoes when working .
All the horses I own would happily do the dressage horses job without shoes .

thank you for this very sound advice He is a stallion, so we will need to find somewhere that would take him for a few months of turnout. Hopefully this isn't impossible!

 

[Andiamo]

definitely give barefoot a go-its not going to cost anything except a bit of time and research.

he needs to be out for at least half the day though and she needs to be able to hand walk him on tarmac as well as the arena and on grass, to stimulate the foot. it wont work if hes stood in a stable all day every day.

she will also need to alter his diet if hes getting a lot of starch and sugar currently.

my last horse competed to inter 1 and schooled to GP with no shoes, NMT's fig is competing adv medium and training PSG and the new 3yo Goofy is intended to go all the way to GP hopefully barefoot too.

Thank you for sharing this, I will let her know

 

[Andiamo]

I dropped you a pm, it may be possible but would need your friend to have a chat to her. alternatively personally I would have him gelded which I know is not over popular for dressage but it would mean that whatever the outcome he would find it easier to get a place where he could be kept unshod but if he did rehab and go back to her he would not lose a great deal of his sparkle for high level dressage. just throwing thoughts out as I do know the files are reducing there at the moment so IF that was the option it would be a good time to proceed. its worth her having a chat though and seeing if they could work something out

Thank you so much! will check my mails.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you, yes it was on the basis of xrays only. I've been in Germany a year, and all the horses I've seen are too long in the toe, and I was concerned about this style of farriery, seems to be the norm here, long in the toe and low slung heels. Maybe an incorrect balance is what has brought on the changes, since he has only been shod since last autumn. Before that he was running free at a stud, with his friends, enjoying his childhood. It does seem to be related in the timing. In his yearling xrays, the feet were 100%, and Klasse 1 (textbook quality in Germany).

To put this simply, your friend does not yet have a diagnosis for why her horse is unsound. The x rays mean almost nothing. It really would be worth her while to nerve block one front foot. If he's then more unlevel, then the greatest likelihood is that he has minor tendon or ligament strain in the foot which would be easily cured by removing the shoes. As he is sound to work gently, there will be no need to start by leading him in hand unless he is sore from removing the shoes.

Turning away is not the answer for these horses, they need work graduated to their ability. Many which are turned away will either remain lame or go lame again when brought back into work.


I actually shocked that a German vet would give such a pessimistic prognosis on the basis of x rays alone, I think your friend has been let down by him/her

 

[Cortez]

Whilst I agree in principle with what has been said re rehab, keeping the horse unshod, etc. with the average leisure or low level competition horse, I think when the subject is destined for a GP dressage career it is simply not worth taking the risk over the long term. If I was aiming a young horse at that level I would want to be as confidant as possible that spending a minimum of 5 years training to reach the level was not going to be wasted.

This is why professional trainers are so very picky when evaluating conformation, gaits, x-rays, etc.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

cortez-do you mean you wouldnt bother trying to rehab for GP as not sure the horse will stand up to it or you dont think he would be able to do GP un shod so reha a waste of time?

just to add-my first ex racer had navicular changes at 6yo, went barefoot and was never lame again. vets were sceptical but proof is in the pudding. she died from a brain tumour but was schooling all the GP work at home.