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TwixMum

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This is my first time posting on here so hopefully I actually manage to post this post and its in the right place. A friend suggested posted on here to get some advice about my 15 year old gelding.

He currently has EMS and has been on and off work for the past 4 years. We also suspect he has Cushings and will be testing soon when I can afford to. It really does break my heart to see him now as he looks a shadow of his former self, underweight lacking muscle. He previously showjumped to 1.40m and was very easy to keep. I would say he looks reasonably healthy but he was always a character and I feel he is no longer like this. He always loved to work but I have to limit what i do as he is 1-2/10 lame so its more pottering about. He can be quite sharp. He is underweight so gets quite a lot of feed just to maintain his weight, so i think this contributes to his sharpness. Because of the EMS he is on restricted turnout and is stabled for the rest of the time. I am currently starting to struggle financially and have to keep him on livery as don't have the time to do him myself.

A few people have suggested tome maybe it's time to consider putting him to sleep as he is essentially a very expensive pet and I am struggling financially. He looks ok in that he has a shiny coat but I do worry about his weight and he can be quite grumpy now which he never was before. He can be very lethargic when ridden but at the same time can be quite sharp. I have always put as much money as I can into his care and I feel very guilty even thinking about it.

I have looked for a sharer for him for the past 6 months and had very little interest. For those that have contacted me weren't suitable as he is not a novice ride and they were under the impression that they could put lots of work into him and he will be a showjumper again which is not the case.

I have also thought about selling him or loaning him but again I worry about who he would go to and if they would look after him as he does have strict management.

Is or has anyone been in this position? Ideally I'd win the lottery buy my own place and he can retire with me but I need to be realistic as my finances are shrinking and the cost of keeping him is rising. I would really appreciate if people will not judge me too harshly as I truly love this horse and he was my horse of a lifetime
 
TwixMum said:
This is my first time posting on here so hopefully I actually manage to post this post and its in the right place. A friend suggested posted on here to get some advice about my 15 year old gelding.

He currently has EMS and has been on and off work for the past 4 years. We also suspect he has Cushings and will be testing soon when I can afford to. It really does break my heart to see him now as he looks a shadow of his former self, underweight lacking muscle. He previously showjumped to 1.40m and was very easy to keep. I would say he looks reasonably healthy but he was always a character and I feel he is no longer like this. He always loved to work but I have to limit what i do as he is 1-2/10 lame so its more pottering about. He can be quite sharp. He is underweight so gets quite a lot of feed just to maintain his weight, so i think this contributes to his sharpness. Because of the EMS he is on restricted turnout and is stabled for the rest of the time. I am currently starting to struggle financially and have to keep him on livery as don't have the time to do him myself.

A few people have suggested tome maybe it's time to consider putting him to sleep as he is essentially a very expensive pet and I am struggling financially. He looks ok in that he has a shiny coat but I do worry about his weight and he can be quite grumpy now which he never was before. He can be very lethargic when ridden but at the same time can be quite sharp. I have always put as much money as I can into his care and I feel very guilty even thinking about it.

I have looked for a sharer for him for the past 6 months and had very little interest. For those that have contacted me weren't suitable as he is not a novice ride and they were under the impression that they could put lots of work into him and he will be a showjumper again which is not the case.

I have also thought about selling him or loaning him but again I worry about who he would go to and if they would look after him as he does have strict management.

Is or has anyone been in this position? Ideally I'd win the lottery buy my own place and he can retire with me but I need to be realistic as my finances are shrinking and the cost of keeping him is rising. I would really appreciate if people will not judge me too harshly as I truly love this horse and he was my horse of a lifetime
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Have you considered Retirement Livery? I'm unsure of the cost but may be cheaper than regular livery. You would know he is being very well cared for and you would be able to see/pamper him as much or as little as you like.

I highly doubt you will find a sharer or loan home for him due to shear cost, and I really would advise against selling due to so many horror stories of horses getting sold on and I think your boy would be prime target due to his past showjumping.

Failing this I think you may have to say your goodbyes. I know itll be hard but you'll be safe in the knowledge that he isnt in pain and that you gave him the best end possible.

Hugs to you OP
 
You have asked a few questions here and alhough I am not an expert in the issues your horse has, a few things spring to mind.

1. You have him on a lot of feed (which makes him sharp) yet he is underweight. Obviously you are going down the diagnosis route to find out why, but perhaps someone here can suggest some good non-heating feed to help with his weight? A friend of mine uses calm and condition which works for her very sharp poor doer. Again, I am no expert here - I have always had more the opposite problem of greedy/fat horses so perhaps someone else on here can help more than me.
2. Sharing / loaning - it sounds as though he is not an ideal candidate, at least until you get his weight to be more stable, and get him comfortable. OK he's a bit lame, but I do know of horses who aren't perfectly sound being quiet walk hacks - as long as it's not actually hurting him. Some may disagree. I would say though that someone looking for that sort of horse probably wants something quiet, not sharp. You may need to advertise carefully without mentioning his SJ history, as that is probably attracting the wrong sort of person.

3. Stabled a lot and pottered about - this doesn't sound like a lot of fun for the poor chap. I know you are trying your best for him, so I'm not having a pop, just trying to see things from the outside.

It doesn't sound good overall, but maybe he'll feel better with warmer weather and a spot of grass (I think we all will). Don't feel bad if you have to say goodbye, it's clear you have tried your best, and you do have to consider your own finances and situation. Best of luck. xx
 
I have a TB who is a lot older and has been diagnosed with cushings and who has recently been retired because of arthritic hocks, he costs a lot to keep healthy but as i have my own yard he's a useful companion for my other horse. if he were on livery and I was struggling with costs, I would PTS. Retirement livery is usually turned out 24/7, which he'd hate as he reacts very badly to flybites in the summer and stands by the gate asking to come in if it's wet and windy. Also I've had him a long time and he's been a great friend to me and I wouldn't want him to be with anyone else for his last years I would rather know that he'd had a "good" end to his life
 
If he is underweight age 15 then there is something going on there. It may be the WAY you are feeding him. Just packing him full of hard feed does not do the job. He sounds as though he might have gastric ulcers too from your post. I would be feeding him lots of forage. If he has EMS then I would be feeding ad lib soaked hay or a very low sugar haylage such as Marksway Horsehage. I would change his feed to something which is molasses free and well balanced. Something such as Pure Feed Condition.

Have his teeth been done in the last year?

I would certainly get him tested for Cushings. Is he insured? I am not sure but usually you can get a free Cushings test. Google 'free cushings test' and see.

He is 1/2 10ths lame? I would not be working him at all until you find out what the cause is. Again, is he insured? He needs a full lameness work up.

I would not be considering PTS until all these things had been addressed. It may be something quite simple.
 
Can I recommend the Phoenix Forums to you? http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org
There's a lot of people on there with experience with horses with metabolic problems, who might be able to offer support and advice on how to figure out what will work best for your horse. What are you feeding him at the moment? Many people seem to swear by Coolstance Copra, as a high-oil,high-calorie feed with very low starch.
 
Unlike the other thread recently, this horse has not been diagnosed and it may be something that can easily be treated, he is only 15, may have had a very busy life but if still happy and bright when ridden can have a good future once the reason for his lameness and weightloss is identified. EMS may mean restricted turnout but this does not have to be restricted time with hours stabled just restricted grass and a careful diet that is low in sugar and starch, much the same if he has cushings but it needs managing extremely carefully. The lameness could be related or something entirely different, again without diagnostics you cannot know whether treatment is an option.
 
Agree with Wagtail, reassess his diet and exercise. Sometimes stabling doesn't help and he might thrive on the right type of grass or retirement livery.
The Cushings test is free BTW.
I think sometimes in winter, everything seems very difficult. Having a vet or/physio to take a fresh look may help to see if you can improve his current quality of life.
Its so expensive with extra feed and bedding at this time of year, it can get a bit demoralising when you have a horse with special needs.
Good luck OP.
 
The vet believes his issues with weight were due to undiagnosed EMS, it took 3 years to diagnose as they originally thought it was kissing spines or an issue in his back. He's had scans, xrays, blocks and an MRI scan. He is no longer insured as he has so many exclusions, there was no point! I should also had that he did have some navicular changes but vet said these were inconclusive. He was also scoped for ulcers and nothing was found.

He is currently fed 2kg of speedibeet/day with 3 mugs of linseed and forageplus hoof health balancer. Any less than this he drops. I have had my hay analysed and it came back pretty good. Sarah at FP suggested the above diet so if anyone has suggestions of what else I can feed him. I have also tried horsehage but he would just pick at it. He currently gets 3 large haynets a day, 4 hours turnout on poor grazing. He will not eat anymore forage than this.

He was tested for cushings last year but this came back within the normal ranges. However I am keen to test him again this year as I am convinced he has cushings.

Regarding his turnout he will not go out for longer than 4 hours (he was never turned out or hacked before I got him) he will just gallop around the field.

It was under the vet's suggestion to ride him lightly as this will help with the EMS. I would like everyone to know that he has had several lameness work ups with different vets and we still have got no further. The only thing that has come up is the EMS.

I hope noone thinks I am being defensive but I have tried lots of different things with this horse and I am struggling financially. I really am just looking for a solution to help him. Regarding winter he costs me the same amount of money each month. His routine doesn't change if it is summer or winter.

sorry for the long post but hope I have answered everyone's questions
 
I have a field full of oldies from 15- 28, at some point they all get to a stage that they do not either process their food as well as they did or their they are expending so much energy to keep warm it does not take much for them to lose weight. All my oldies that need feeding are fed all year conditioning feed with a DE13.5, with linseed on top the amount varying with the season, if you get them to eat it Copra meal has a high DE and doesn't blow their brains. Rugging helps them maintain their body temperature
I would get the vet out, do the bloods, check teeth, worm count and then if there is nothing obviously wrong and fixable make your decision from there. Some horses are old as teenagers and some will keep going well into their twenties. If you can not find what is making this pony grumpy and his welfare is a priority then perhaps have him PTS.
I would also look at how he is with his field companions, sometimes they lose their place in the herd and have to fight for the best feed and finding the right companions can help. I had my old mare PTS and has taken a few months for the rest to settle and find their place.
 
If you are feeding 2kg dry weight of Speedibeet which has a DE 12, I would swop it for Coolstance copra , or a rice bran based feed with a higher DE both are low GI feeds.
 
honetpot said:
If you are feeding 2kg dry weight of Speedibeet which has a DE 12, I would swop it for Coolstance copra , or a rice bran based feed with a higher DE both are low GI feeds.
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I will have a look at the coolstance copra, do you know which brands do a rice bran based feed?
 
Just my opinion in answer to your questions, dont shoot me down or get the wrong impression, okay you say lame so therefore not related to ems or cushings even laminitus unless confirmed, so therefore no sale, no sharer and possibly due to age field ornament or retire elsewhere.

Older horses may not eat as much forage due to bad lack of teeth so feed more soft feed such as fast fibre, in his case fibre beet as it puts weight on but still feed 3 nets whether he eats them or bot doesnt matter they are there if he wants the, and if they wrent there they would be in a bale so not wasted. Has he seen a dentist recently and is his worming up todate? Running around the field well this will happen if a horse isnt turned put regularly, so more turn put could make him settle. I know when i go dancing i dance all night cos i dont do it that often so make the most of it.

The biggest problem with cushings is because of laminitis owners feed less or less starch so as not to tempt laminitis but the horse with cushings is wasting away, so feed lots of forage including hard feed, but less grass and sugary feeds which start laminitis, but you still have to feed healthy food or better pts. My YM fed her cushings mare really really old past the 4 year stage hay, there was nothing in it, and she couldnt understand why the mare continued to lose weight. Hope it works for you, but if costing you money maybe better to call it a day
 
I appreciate everyone's advice!

He gets the dentist yearly and is due in july. How much fibre beet would you feed and howdoes this differ from speedibeet? All worming is up to date. He is turned out everyday for 4 hours. When i first had him he wouldnt go out for longer than 30mns we have managed to build him up to 4 hours but doesn't seem to want to go out any longer (I have had him 8 years)

I know it's hard to find a suitable feed for him that is high calories but low in sugar and starch. He is also allergic to alfa, which adds another spanner.

I agree with you about people thinking they have to starve their lami/cushings/ems horses. seems ridiculous. I really do wish they could find a cure

putasocinit said:
Just my opinion in answer to your questions, dont shoot me down or get the wrong impression, okay you say lame so therefore not related to ems or cushings even laminitus unless confirmed, so therefore no sale, no sharer and possibly due to age field ornament or retire elsewhere.

Older horses may not eat as much forage due to bad lack of teeth so feed more soft feed such as fast fibre, in his case fibre beet as it puts weight on but still feed 3 nets whether he eats them or bot doesnt matter they are there if he wants the, and if they wrent there they would be in a bale so not wasted. Has he seen a dentist recently and is his worming up todate? Running around the field well this will happen if a horse isnt turned put regularly, so more turn put could make him settle. I know when i go dancing i dance all night cos i dont do it that often so make the most of it.

The biggest problem with cushings is because of laminitis owners feed less or less starch so as not to tempt laminitis but the horse with cushings is wasting away, so feed lots of forage including hard feed, but less grass and sugary feeds which start laminitis, but you still have to feed healthy food or better pts. My YM fed her cushings mare really really old past the 4 year stage hay, there was nothing in it, and she couldnt understand why the mare continued to lose weight. Hope it works for you, but if costing you money maybe better to call it a day
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Our three 25 year oldies with Cushings are on Rowan Barbary ready fibre mash and do great on it. Two are on the Ready Fibre Mash and the one with no teeth who is hard to keep weight on is on Ready Mash Extra. We have fed fast fibre previously but they weren't as keen on it.
http://www.rowenbarbary.co.uk/
 
I'm a bit confused about the lameness. You say he is 1 - 2/10 lame. He has had lameness workups but nothing found. So do you know which leg(s) he is lame on and where abouts? If a horse is noticeably lame then this can usually be identified with nerve blocks. If nothing comes up with blocks then the lameness is usually higher up (shoulder, back, pelvis). What did the nerve blocks show? Is he sensitive to hoof testers? Is he shod all round? What is his foot balance like. So many lameness issues can be down to poor hoof balance and/or poor shoeing. If you could get to the bottom of his lameness issues that would leave a lot more options open to you. Even lethargy when being ridden can be because of foot pain.
 
Wagtail said:
I'm a bit confused about the lameness. You say he is 1 - 2/10 lame. He has had lameness workups but nothing found. So do you know which leg(s) he is lame on and where abouts? If a horse is noticeably lame then this can usually be identified with nerve blocks. If nothing comes up with blocks then the lameness is usually higher up (shoulder, back, pelvis). What did the nerve blocks show? Is he sensitive to hoof testers? Is he shod all round? What is his foot balance like. So many lameness issues can be down to poor hoof balance and/or poor shoeing. If you could get to the bottom of his lameness issues that would leave a lot more options open to you. Even lethargy when being ridden can be because of foot pain.
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We are also confused with the lameness! we have blocked all 4 feet and his back, no improvement he has had xrays on his neck, feet and back and nothing. MRI showed a slight strain in the collateral ligament but vet said that it wouldn't cause lameness. xrays in left fore showed navicular changes but again inconclusive.

Have had numerous physios, chiros etc out and again one or 2 tightnesses but nothing that showed anything up. He is barefoot and his heels are slighly underrun but trimmer is working on this. doesn't react to hoof testers. His left fore is slightly smaller than right fore but has always been this way.

He's had 3 vets from different practices treat him, first advice was to PTS, second was to retire and third was to semiretire and lightly work. They all said that unless I want to MRI, scan and xray every part of him then there's not much else we can do. I currently can not finance anymore expensive treatments
 
TwixMum said:
We are also confused with the lameness! we have blocked all 4 feet and his back, no improvement he has had xrays on his neck, feet and back and nothing. MRI showed a slight strain in the collateral ligament but vet said that it wouldn't cause lameness. xrays in left fore showed navicular changes but again inconclusive.

Have had numerous physios, chiros etc out and again one or 2 tightnesses but nothing that showed anything up. He is barefoot and his heels are slighly underrun but trimmer is working on this. doesn't react to hoof testers. His left fore is slightly smaller than right fore but has always been this way.

He's had 3 vets from different practices treat him, first advice was to PTS, second was to retire and third was to semiretire and lightly work. They all said that unless I want to MRI, scan and xray every part of him then there's not much else we can do. I currently can not finance anymore expensive treatments
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Is he 15 now or will he be 15 this year? How big is he? The blood bank take in horses up to 15 years old so long as they are 16hh or over. Had you considered that? They never pass them on and most horses there are between 25 and 30 years old. If they have a severe injury or illness, they are PTS on the premises.

ETA: Just realised his EMS may rule him out as they go out 24/7 in the fields in Summer.
 
Wagtail said:
Is he 15 now or will he be 15 this year? How big is he? The blood bank take in horses up to 15 years old so long as they are 16hh or over. Had you considered that? They never pass them on and most horses there are between 25 and 30 years old. If they have a severe injury or illness, they are PTS on the premises.
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He will be 15 this year and is 16.1hh. I will have a look at the blood bank, how does it work?
 
TwixMum said:
He will be 15 this year and is 16.1hh. I will have a look at the blood bank, how does it work?
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They go out in the fields 24/7 in the summer, then come into big barns during the winter, in the same herds. It would depend what effect his EMS has on him and whether he could withstand the grazing. They give blood once a month so they need to be good to handle and good with needles.
 
I am in a similar position in that I have a pony with EMS and suspected cushings. I manage her by keeping her out 24/7, on a track in summer, the whole paddock in winter, although with the current wet she is in overnight, and feeding high fibre haylage (currently mole valley farmers) and a handful of chaff and a lo cal balancer with micronised linseed. I do think that movement is crucial.
I also haven't tested as the cost of treatment would be prohibitive, and even with a free test you still have the call out and exam to pay.

I'd also try adding magnesium and feeding some agnus castus as this has been said to help with cushings symptoms.

At the moment she is happy and riding out regularly, but once I see her condition deteriorate and she becomes miserable or her quality of life is compromised then I'm afraid I'll be making 'that' decision for her. :(
 
We have a 20yo TB with cushings and ulcers - she is thriving this winter having just had her teeth done...she is out all day and has a stable open onto a small sand school at night so can constantly move but also has somewhere comfy to lie down. She gets 2 big haynets of dunked (not soaked) hay (to remove dust as she can be sensitive breathing wise also) and one hard feed a day of a scoop of spillers happy hoof, a scoop of Saracen re-leve, dollop of natural yoghurt, sprinkle of gastricare powder, sprinkle of garlic and mixed all together with water. She has been on cushings meds but we have been able to cut this right back (she still does affiliated BD so need to clear her system of it before a competition) and she is ridden/lunged 5-6 days per week. The happy hoof/re-leve combo has worked for us for the past 3 or 4 years in terms of keeping her at a good weight, keeping her ulcers under control and also having something (a little sprinkle of happy hoof on its own!) to give the Exmoors so they don't feel left out at dinner time!!
 
If you suspect cushings then no harm in feedin Agnus Cactus. Also, high levels of Vit E and Oil have proven to be very beneficial for EMS horses. Just bog standard oil from the supermarket, I prefer sunflower as don't think vegetable oil is overly healthy for horses as is rapeseed which is a brassica but thats by-the-by and powdered Vit E (pure Vit E, no selenium as will be in the balancer so more is not needed)can be bought from Ebay (Pro Earth) for comparitive pennies.
 
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