Need some suggestions... been rethinking stallion choice...

[Gingernags]

I was planning to put Asti to an Arab stallion, there are a few around a fairly local area, but only 2 that are 15.2, the others only 15hh.

Now Asti is 3/4 TB, and though she has TB legs, she really has a leg at each corner and is VERY big and round on top for her breeding...

This isn't me riding but I love this pic, you can see how round she is

and she has a pretty broad chest...

BUT... I'm only 5'6" though on the heavy side. Currently losing plenty of weight and aim to keep going. Now weight carrying with her isn't a problem, we do all sorts - but my 2 current "disciplines" I'm wanting to do properly are dressage and endurance. Hence the arab idea.

Now the photos taken the other day at dressage have got me thinking, I know they were taken from slightly above which might have distorted it, but though she takes my leg up well, they are only short, I'm looking top heavy and too tall (never thought I'd see the day!)

Right... congratulations... nearly there...

Am I imagining it and am OK on her and an arab x would be fine?

Or OK on her but an arab x would be pushing it and need to look at an alternative stallion to an arab...

Or yes looking big on her so definitely a bigger stallion...

And then what type of stallion would you suggest to get a happy hacker that will do endurance and dressage?

Apologies for the essay but as I say, got me thinking and re-evaluating what to do!

(Oh and don't want anything totally massive or I'll never get on!!!)

 

[samp]

Why not cross her with a Trakehner - improve on the dressage side - I am not too sure what they are like as endurance. I think with an Arab you run the risk of it being too fine. Maybe even an anglo arab?

 

[Maesfen]

She's a lovely type but I know what you mean plus the fact that now you have thought you might be too tall/heavy, nothing is going to shift it from your mind, however hard we try!! So. how about going for an Anglo Arab then, that would give you the extra height and could be perfect?!

There are a few that might suit but three I know of well are Fairlyn Gemini (had 4 by him, all good bone/size, and good enough to county show easily plus be all rounders too - believe he had ten offspring at HOYS this year! I know they still have some straws of his, if you need the number, pm me)
Kalahari (I think) stands near Manchester; lovely strong grey horse, very tempted myself! AHS will have details of him.
Silver Whirlwind, stands at Oswestry. Lovely type of horse, throwing nice stock. Google whirlwind stud for him. I think he has been doing endurance too which might be helpful.

 

[Pasha]

How big is she? I'm 5'6" and my Arab is 15'2hh.... to be honest, for an endurance horse you can't beat an arab but there are different types to chose from and you can always use AI if there isn't one in your area.

IMO (and others may dissagree), Crabbets, Polish and Russian are more 'classic' looking Arabs, especially the Crabbets who come out quite chunky (which is a good thing)!! Polish are more 'refined' and narrower, however, if you want to breed with something that is finer and narrower, chose an Egyptian.

I'm not so sure about the Spanish and French Arabs, aside from the fact that the French make fantastic race horses!

My boy is Polish x Russian and we previously owned English (Crabbet).... these are all quite 'chunky' types but make fantastic Riding horses

If I were you I'd look out for a taller Stallion - there are 16hh Arabs in Studs in England!

 

[Pasha]

BTW Arabs are one of the best weight carriers for their size as their bone is so dense - hardly get any leg problems etc.

If you like Anglos, you may as well put your mare to an Arab stallion as you're basically going to end up with an Anglo.

But, as she's 3/4 TB herself, if you put her to an Anglo, you are going to end up with another high percentage TB (nearly 3/4)

 

[SSM]

Wellllllllllll.........you know what I am going to say!!!!

http://www.clevelandbay.com/picture_gallery.htm

Top right hand one, then it would be related to the Stonkers

 

[magic104]

My old mare went back to Scindian Magic who stood 16hh. There is no reason why an Arab can't carry the weight, it is whether it will be big enough for you to feel comfortable. An A/A may well be the answer, but try the AHS. There is no reason why a Trakhner PB could not do indurance you will just have to check the blood lines, as the Arab has been diluted over the years.

 

[Gingernags]

[ QUOTE ]
Wellllllllllll.........you know what I am going to say!!!!

http://www.clevelandbay.com/picture_gallery.htm

Top right hand one, then it would be related to the Stonkers

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obsessed woman!!!!! Oh - forgot to tell you, yes the farmer is a flying farmer!

 

[SSM]

I know - and proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I intend to single handedly raise their profile within the equine world (picks up soil "as God is my witness"!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gingernags]

I'm such a thicky....! She's 14.3 1/2 just to be awkward, but 15hh to make it easier!

I have to say I really, really, like Silver Whirlwind and he's 15.2 and an Anglo but yes, then puts quite a lot of TB, though not necessarily a problem. I guess I'd like to aim for getting a 15.2 which I know isn't easy.

Mind you I am DEFINITELY ruling out a Welsh D. Even knowing what a soppy thing Asti is, I'm not risking breeding a spawn of satan like my sister did!!!!

There are some nice hanoverians about, and a cracking Irish Draught - a stunner of a chestnut - but then am I getting something that would struggle with endurance, whereas Arabs excel at it?

Plus I'd really rather find something farily local to the north east - so I can visit often whilst she's at stud!

 

[SSM]

BEAMISH..................They have a CB stallion.....slinks out of the room - again

 

[Pasha]

Who are the 2 stallions you are considering? It maybe worth checking to see if they produce taller Arabs.

I particuarly like 'Artist' Susan george's stallion. Actually, most of her stallions are stunning and quite tall if I remember correctly, but Exmoor may be too far for you to go.

Cullinghurst Stud (Norfolk) also have a fantastic stallion or two

 

[filly190]

She's a lovely horse, I was wondering how you could bare not to ride her while she's in foal. I understand the desire to get a nice quality foal from her, but knowing how expensive it is to breed, would it not be a consideration and cheaper to buy a yearling?

I know many people who have gone down the route of breeding their own and its amazing how hidden expenses can tot up over the first year and by the time you are done, you could have trawled the country and selected exactly what you want for less money.

This is'nt perhaps what you want to hear, because having your own is wonderful and magical. I responded this way, because it seems you are really giving such a lot of consideration to breeding the correct animal and doing best by your mare (and she is beautiful).

You clearly want this foal for yourself to ride in the future and I wish you all the best in selecting your stallion, I am sure you will crack it.

 

[Gingernags]

I've found these...

arabs

Judals Just Dreamin and EA Arabian Knight- but only just found them so don't know much about them. Both 15.3

The really local one is called Rabanat but he's only 14.3 which is a shame as he's a stunner and a real all-rounder with a fabulous temperament.

And the one I've exhanged a few emails with the owner is called Judals Raphael, expected to make 15.2, and he's v nice

Look at the action of this foal of his...

Gorgeous little chap!

 

[Gingernags]

[ QUOTE ]
She's a lovely horse, I was wondering how you could bare not to ride her while she's in foal. I understand the desire to get a nice quality foal from her, but knowing how expensive it is to breed, would it not be a consideration and cheaper to buy a yearling?

I know many people who have gone down the route of breeding their own and its amazing how hidden expenses can tot up over the first year and by the time you are done, you could have trawled the country and selected exactly what you want for less money.

This is'nt perhaps what you want to hear, because having your own is wonderful and magical. I responded this way, because it seems you are really giving such a lot of consideration to breeding the correct animal and doing best by your mare (and she is beautiful).

You clearly want this foal for yourself to ride in the future and I wish you all the best in selecting your stallion, I am sure you will crack it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well she'll still be hacked about to keep her fit, always makes the birth easier, until she's too big. I bred her you see, from a pony mare so she's my second generation ginger mare, and I want to breed a third and last generation one to keep my mini line going. Then I figure I'll be too old to bother with another!

She's just such a little star that I'd love to breed one that will hopefully have some of her nature, and will be a peice of her to keep. She's 14 now so a long road ahead of her I hope.

I know a foal isn't going to be another Asti, but I do like my home breds!

 

[Pasha]

Ooh Vodolej (on your link to Horsemart) is a Superstar in the Arab world! Now a veteran he draws huge crowds wherever he goes and wins absolutely every class! He is only 14.3hh though, what a shame as boy he can MOVE! He even has his own fan club!

Judals Just Dreamin I know produces taller stock (from what i've heard others say).... I'm not a breeder BTW. And he has good breeding in his pedigree, the likes of Ali Jamaal, Carmargue and El Shaklan (who was 15.3hh).

I haven't heard of EA Arabian Night, but I'm sure he's gorgeous.

Judas Raphael looks stunning!!! If you go onto arabianlines.com and into the 'New Arrivals' thread, there are pictures of some of his offspring.

Also may be worth putting a post on there asking for advice on which Stallions produce tall cross breeds?

 

[Twiglet]

I have a TB cross Trakehner, and can imagine he'd be fab at endurance (but I haven't got the patience!). Trakehners were originally bred as cavalry horses, they would carry fully grown men, plus arms, in bad conditions for weeks on end.
As below!:
The Trakehner horse was developed in the early 18th century by King Wilhelm I of Prussia, the father of Friedrich the Great, seeing the need for a new type of cavalry mount for the Prussian army. War tactics had changed and now required a lighter more comfortable horse with more endurance and speed than the heavier horses previously needed to carry armour and haul heavy equipment. The King wanted horses for his officers to ride, attractive enough to make them proud, solid enough to stay sound with a comfortable, ground-covering trot that would enable them to travel quickly and efficiently. He chose the best horses from seven of his royal breeding farms and in 1732 moved them all to the new royal stud at Trakehnen, began selective breeding among them and the Trakehner breed evolved. The breed has been selectively bred since that time with a closed stud book.



And they are renowned for their fabulous work ethic, which is a definite plus point for dressage!
They're also brave and incredibly intelligent, but they do need work - an unworked Trakehner is the equivalent of keeping a 'border collie in a flat' according to one breeder I've spoken to.

 

[Pasha]

Trakehner's (like most warmbloods) were infused with Arab and TB blood, so i'm not surprised if they are good at Endurance.

 

[vicijp]

I dont know a lot about Trakehners, only what the local stud woman has told me.
Apparently full TB and Arab mares can be graded into the Trakehner studbook(the offspring is then a full Trakehner when put to one). It may take a bit of searching but maybe the offspring of such a mare would be the ideal candidate?

 

[Pasha]

That's weird isn't it that another breed can be graded into the stud book? My friend brought a Danish (branded) warmblood and his pedigree was full of KPWN (still warmblood though I suppose)

 

[Gingernags]

I want this one!!! Now he'd make lovely babies with my mare...

Holme Grove Solomon

Gorgeous!!!!!

Now you've got me thinking!!!!!

This one is local...

Isolan

and

Sponeck

Both very nice indeed!

 

[Twiglet]

Holme Grove Solomon, yum, fantastic for a dressage baby.

Would also recommend the Godington - Hannibal being the most famous, but Borsalino more dressage.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/stallionsandstuds/418/74349.html
Am biased as they're all half brothers of my boy, but Hannibal throws very talented and beautiful babies.

Also the Maestro and Inspekteur lines are meant to be good for dressage.....

 

[Evadiva1514]

OOOHHH!!!!

Coppertop Holme Grove Solomon is my babies daddy... He is the most beautiful stallion, and is incredibly nice natured. When i first met him i followed Susan The stud owner into his field and he just stood there wanting his bottom scratching!! He and his beautiful children are the reason i am a complete Trakehner addict. I also have a part bred trakehner filly who is by an arab stallion and she would definitely suit an endurance career... she is fine, very bold and has endless stamina, but i am planning on them both embarking on a dressage career!! PM me if you want anymore information about trakehners in general, once you have one you won't want another breed they are absolutely fantastic!!

Here are some piccies of my little filly Holme Grove Chantelle by Holme Grove Solomon out of PM Holme Grove Cleopatra:

at 10 days old:

and as a yearling:

 

[FMM]

If you are breeding just one foal from her, then I think you should keep at the forefront of your mind that you are not likely to get what you want! You will definitely (and at far lower cost) find exactly what you are looking for from another source, and not have to put Asti through the rigours of motherhood (plus you can keep riding her as well). After all, it is not as if she is having to stop work because she is not fit enough to do the job you want her to do. I think you should have a serious think about whether you definitely want to go down the breeding route (see all the heartache on here from people who do breed for a living).

I can understand how you would dearly like a baby Asti, but first foals are notorious for being small, and you could easily end up with a youngster that is not only not what you wanted, but will have cost a lot of money and time to bring up.

Sorry if this has already been said, and if you decide to go ahead, why not look at some of the bigger TBs like Infantry for example. On the showing side you should get a pretty decent small hunter or small riding horse which would also be capable of speed and distance.

 

[Gingernags]

I'm not doubting what you say, but Asti herself was a huge first foal, and from a 14.2 like a minature TB mare from a 16h TB stallion, she was OK size wise for me. Plus Ivy is out of a maiden 15.2 mare, and by a 15.2 stallion and is bigger then her mum and is only 2...

We seem to grow them big up here!

Am definately wanting to breed a foal off her, I'll get some endurance rides in Spring, and will hack her through the summer as long as possible, so really I'll miss about a year and then bring her back into work once the foal is weaned - assuming all goes well...

I think I'll go look at a couple of stallions first and see what I think. The 15.3 arab is still a possibility, though much as I think Solomon is gorgeous, I think its too far away for a northerner. I want her somewhere nearby if at all possible so I can visit and get my fix of gingerness...

I've been planning the next generation since Asti was born!

 

[Twiglet]

Benji's Girl, please stop, I'm jealous!

 

[amandaco2]

i would have said trak would be nice provided it wasnt too light.or even a TBxID.
for the lower levels of endurance most horses can do it, it depends on how high you want to go.
endurance horses tend move fairly conservatively-ie quite long and low daisy cutting, compared to a dressage horse who has alot of suspension-which obviously wastes alot of energy over long distance but is good for the dressage arena.
i a suppose you would have to say which you would rather go to higher levels with.
an anglo arab stallion may well be abit light as she has not got that much bone herself especially if you are aimig for a foal to mature higher than her.
arabs are obviously ideal for endurance.i would have said a pure arab rather than anglo as TBs can tend to be rather silly and have higher heart rates,worse feet etc. you would end up with something with a fair bit of TB in it anyway if you put her to an arab.
arabs are very tough and at 5ft6 you could ride something around 15hh and not look too tall provided it wasnt very flat sided.
from a dressage point of veiw for the higher levels you would wnt very trainable, something to inject some suspension in her paces and something not too light as they need alot of strength to be able to collect.this is another difference with endurance and dressage.dressage horses tend to have much rounder muscles and strength behind to enable them to sit and carry themselves off the forehand.topline and hind quarter strength are very important.endurance horses have longer leaner shape and look more wirey as they need to have stamina and use as little energy as possible to cover land at slower paces.
at the lower levels of both sports the differences between the horses are lesser but if one compared a top level endurance horse to a top level dressage horse they re completely different shapes etc.
welsh and heavier breeds can tend to give higher heart rates for endurance too i believe it is because of the muscle fibre type, they have more slow twitch.
for an all round horse capable at lower levels a trak, TBxID or chunkier arab would suit her provided the individual stallion complimented her of course and threw foals of that type from mares like her consistantly.
i would have said to decide which sport you would rather get to higher levels in first and then decide.
good luck, hope all goes well.
i rather like Asti so i hope you find a suitable hubby for her!

 

[amandaco2]

would also agree with FFMs cautionary note too though.it is risky!

 

[mrdarcy]

I'd definitely go for an arab if you want to do competitive endurance - mainly due to heart rates... they recover much faster than any other breed. This boy http://www.wh-arabians.demon.co.uk/frames.htm?main=who.htm would breed you something potentially very talented. He's only 15hh but lots of bone and its absolutely true that arabs can carry weight far greater than their height might suggest.

Btw I don't think you look top heavy on your mare at all