Need urgent advice on dog bites...

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EquestrianFairy

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My dog has bitten a neighbour, they are taking it further so I want to know where I stand before this gets messy.

I have a dog walker and my dogs are nervous so are walked on facial halties attached to the collar.
She was walking past a house where two large Akitas have moved in and they ran at a gate barking which sent my two barking and crazy- in the midst of this my one collie managed to remove the facial halti BUT was still attached to his lead.

The dog walker stopped to calm them and sort them out, meanwhile a couple who had watched the entire scene had stopped with food shopping in their hands and this is where things get a little sketchy- according to them they just stood there waiting and as the dog walker past them my dog had gone for the ladies hand catching her and breaking the skin on her finger.

According to the dog walker they had stopped and the lady had stepped forward hand out, to touch my dog who was wagging his tail and before she could say 'don't touch him' he had gone for her hand and caught it.

Either way, she went straight down the hospital 'because her finger was hanging off' and they are taking it further.

Does anyone know what I can expect to happen now....
 
Nightmare. I would wonder why anyone who had just witnessed a melee like that would think it was a good idea to reach out and touch one of the dogs involved. For this reason, obvs I wasn't there, I would be questioning the dog walker's account, sorry. In a situation like that an experienced walker would contain the dogs and let the people pass by or before that ever happened, to call out 'please give us some space until I get this sorted'. The dog should never have been allowed to be in the position to be near someone else's hand.

But hindsight is a wonderful thing...I expect you may get a call from the police or the local dog warden, if there is one, the best you can expect is that your dog must be muzzled when out from now on.

Hope it all works out.
 
The dog walker has contacted me, very upset. The lady twitched her arm and the dog reacted because he was still wound up from the previous 2 mins situation of the other dogs and he was beaten as a baby so he exceptionally nervous of peoples hands. She has said that it was her fault, she should have asked the couple to cross the road and give the dogs more space.
He has caught her finger with his one of his teeth across the top part of her middle finger.
 
if he is that reactive a muzzle when out may have been wise in the first place, it would certainly be a wise precaution now and if there are any repercussions you would be seen to be taking sensible steps so it cannot happen again.

do you mean he caught the dog walker too?
 
So she didn't reach out to him then. If she was just walking past minding her own business his past history doesn't really some into it, especially if the walker was aware of these issues, sorry :(, agree he def needs to be muzzled from now on/in the interim.

I've had an injury in a similar part of the same finger (I put my hand in the dog's mouth to remove something so it was definitely my fault!!)
I did go to A&E to have shots and have it cleaned but I refused to give them details when asked because it was my own fault as mentioned and I did not want my dog to get in trouble. The nurse did ask lots of questions (and it turned out she knew the dog's breeder and another woman I know in dogs so I am glad I kept schtum). There is a tiny scar which gets a bit achey in cold weather.
It hurt like hell at the time and I was unable to bend the finger for a few days afterwards, but it was the left hand. If the injury has an impact on her work, you might be in diffs.
 
you poor poor thing! it is so unfortunate the couple want to take it further. Do you have their contact details? I cant help but think they are elderly, shaken up and perhaps a wonderfully apologetic phone call / visit and explanation of your dogs behaviour from his frightened point of view might help and placate them?
By the sounds of things your dog didn't actually bite her - more that he caught his tooth on her hand? (grey area as to what constitutes a bite?!). It would help you to understand what outcome this couple are pursuing?
True your dog walker should have asked the couple to give the dogs space, but she was probably more concerned about the akitas to the other side of her!

So does your dog walker think the old lady reached out to touch him or just made a small movement of her arm whilst holding bags of shopping?
 
CaveCanem said:
There is a tiny scar which gets a bit achey in cold weather.
It hurt like hell at the time and I was unable to bend the finger for a few days afterwards, but it was the left hand. If the injury has an impact on her work, you might be in diffs.
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Sounds nasty and alot worse than I had imagined (a small graze/nick?). Scrub what I said earlier about it not being a bite. Even though I've always imagined a bite to be top jaw and bottom jaw clamping together?
 
In your shoes and if I thought that officialdom would come a knocking, I'd ask that the lady who was so savagely mauled (:wink3:), provides a report from the hospital or the ambulance crew (assuming that there was one available :lol:), and that she supports her claim with photographic evidence, and when she complies, then you would be entitled to ask for a copy.

For the future? Difficult without knowing the dogs or being able to adjudge their temperaments, but from what you say, it would seem that their aggression is a matter of having a nervous disposition, and it's often the most difficult to deal with, so in future, muzzling them when out in public may be the orders given.

I wouldn't worry too much, yet. If you're approached by anyone in a uniform, refuse them entry and don't allow them near the dogs. If the average PO, rspca bod or dog warden decides to assess your dogs, then with their collective knowledge which will probably amount to very little, they could well make matters worse.

I would expect that actually nothing will come of it.

Alec.
 
moppett said:
Sounds nasty and alot worse than I had imagined (a small graze/nick?). Scrub what I said earlier about it not being a bite. Even though I've always imagined a bite to be top jaw and bottom jaw clamping together?
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It was a top canine only. I had been trying to pull the dog's jaws apart and there was someting he was holding in the middle so the two jaws meeting would have been impossible.
I've had my hand/fingers caught a few times since, accidental stuff and it is still really, really painful.
A bite where top and bottom jaw clamp together is not a 'go away/leave me alone/I'm scared/warning' bite as the OP's dog seems to have done, it is a 'hold the thing as hard as I can and make the thing stop moving/reacting' bite and is much, much worse and I hope to never have one of those.
 
From what I can gather, he caught her with his tooth and it was not an open and shut and jaw action.

I say this because this is what he is like, he snaps as a warning and with minimal effort because he's so big that's probably a positive!
I have said I will buy a muzzle for her to use in future although in this case he had managed to remove his facial halti which is part muzzle anyway during the argument with the two Akitas- now this could be seen as my fault for not ensuring it was tight enough as he has never gotten it off before however it's possible she removed it whilst out on the walk and didn't clip it back up properly but I didn't want to make her more upset that she already was.
Luckily it was attached to his collar so he was still on a lead.

She has said that the couple were waiting by the pavement on her side of the road and that's why in hindsight she should have just asked them to cross the road or give her more space but as was said above, hindsight is a great thing.
 
I got bitten in my right hand in June by a Lhaso Apso. I was at my FIL house and it was next door neighbours dog. I had my back to the dog and he was standing up against the low wall between us. As I turned around my hand moved into his reach and he caught and held onto my thumb and middle finger. It was definitely a bite with intent. Owner came rushing out and shouted at me " I told you not to touch him" but I hadn't gone to touch him although he obviously though that I was going to. :o
I put it down to experience and washed it up with Dettol and taped it up. It hurt a lot! But I didn't even consider reporting them. I just hope that they acted on it and realise that the dog is a bit unhinged and not safe. Last time I visited the dog was nowhere to be seen so seems that were keeping it indoors.
OP. I hope you manage to sort this out and don't end up in trouble over it.
 
He then ended up urinating himself afterwards.. Again, this is what happens which is why I am very careful with him.

He snaps (only the hands) as a 'go away' prompt, unfortunately this is his warning rather than a growl or something that is less physical. I haven't had any run ins with him for years but then he's my dog and I know him best, the dog walker is very very good with him. I can tell she is totally devastated this has happened.
 
http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

Have spoken to this guy in the past when we were having issues with dog control orders locally and the authority weren't following the required consultation procedure and there was an awful lot of ambiguity in the wording of some of their proposals. Seemed to know his stuff.
 
TrasaM said:
I got bitten in my right hand in June by a Lhaso Apso. I was at my FIL house am
Nd I had my back to the dog and he was standing up against the low wall between us. As I turned around my hand moved into his reach and he caught and held onto my thumb and middle finger. It was definitely a bite with intent. Owner came rushing out and shouted at me " I told you not to touch him" but I hadn't gone to touch him although he obviously though that I was going to. :o
I put it down to experience and washed it up with Dettol and taped it up. It hurt a lot! But I didn't even consider reporting them. I just hope that they acted on it and realise that the dog is a bit unhinged and not safe. Last time I visited the dog was nowhere to be seen so seems that were keeping it indoors.
OP. I hope you manage to sort this out and don't end up in trouble over it.
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Ouch!! He doesn't bite like that, he doesn't hold on its a snap a quick 'if I snap at you and run away then you will leave me alone'. It's heartbreaking for me as he is the most soppiest lovable boy when he is in the house, secure and safe from anything that scares him.
 
EquestrianFairy said:
He then ended up urinating himself afterwards.. Again, this is what happens which is why I am very careful with him.

He snaps (only the hands) as a 'go away' prompt, unfortunately this is his warning rather than a growl or something that is less physical. I haven't had any run ins with him for years but then he's my dog and I know him best, the dog walker is very very good with him. I can tell she is totally devastated this has happened.
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:( I have a reactive dog who is terrified of everything and whose hardwired response is to nip and hide (no teeth marks, no broken skin, just a pinch of skin with his very front teeth) its devastating to see them fall apart and resort to biting and I feel so sorry for you and your dog. I hope everything turns out ok!
 
My lurcher bit a child a few years ago. Nothing came of it eventually although the parents were livid (fair enough). I grovelled like mad, I suppose it would be deemed as admitting liability if you turned up with wine, choc and flowers? Personally I would want to show I was sorry and as you aren't disputing that he did bite her would it do any harm?
To be fair if she isn't doggy it was probably very scarey, and dog bites hurt like nothing else.
Definately fully muzzled whenever he leaves the house from now on.
 
There is no such thing as admitting liability with respect to a dog bite. Dog owners are strictly liable for their animals and the dog doesn't even have to bite, it just has to scare someone for there to be a problem.

OP if I were you I would speak to a solicitor experienced in this kind of case asap. It may be that he can help you calm things down with the woman who was bitten and give you advice on how to reassure the authorities that it won't happen again. To be honest your dog should have been properly muzzled if he is that likely to bite a random stranger for no reason (as far as the stranger is concerned).
 
My OH went over just now after work as I'm not the best person to do the sucking up (I'm stupidly protective over my boy).
Anyway the dog walker has taken full responsibility and my OH has apologised profusely.
We don't know if they are going to take it further but it looks like that might be it, she doesn't have any stitches but the dr said that's because nowadays they prefer not to use them. Her hand is bandaged, he removed the skin from her forefinger (the top of the finger near the fleshy part below the knuckle) it happened as she pulled away his tooth caught her finger and ripped the skin. My OH sAid it had bled through the bandage and she had her tetanus shots but had calmed down. They are dog people and explained they know what dogs are like but they feel it was unprovoked and it probably was and that was the shock.
It seems the dog walker walked the dogs down the pavement past the couple and the dog lunged at them as he passed, this wasn't the best route- she inadvertently cornered the dog between a wall and the couple which hasn't helped.
So, we are buying a materialised muzzle tomorrow for future walks and I'm having a conversation with the dog walker on Thursday about how to handle such situations again if it arose that he gets his halti off. We had a look at it and I can only assume that the clip came undone as it is still quite tight on him.

Just one of those things, it's a shame that the one who would pay the price is my boy so it needs to be learned from and not happen again when they are walked by the dog walker.
 
Booboos said:
There is no such thing as admitting liability with respect to a dog bite. Dog owners are strictly liable for their animals and the dog doesn't even have to bite, it just has to scare someone for there to be a problem.

OP if I were you I would speak to a solicitor experienced in this kind of case asap. It may be that he can help you calm things down with the woman who was bitten and give you advice on how to reassure the authorities that it won't happen again. To be honest your dog should have been properly muzzled if he is that likely to bite a random stranger for no reason (as far as the stranger is concerned).
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He has a facial halti which is a muzzle to some degree as once you pull on it it closes his mouth, unfortunately this had come off. Why, I do not know as he cannot get it off so I can only assume it had not been clipped on properly. We are going to buy a materialised muzzle for when the dog walker walks him from now on as I think her naievity didn't help. She underestimated how nervous he can be.
 
It sounds like you have a seriously reactive dog. Have you considered a vet who specialises in behavioural problems? There are quire a few drug options available nowadays and perhaps one of them might help.
 
Hope it goes no further, and glad that lessons have been learned, but the dog walker should a) not have squeezed two agitated dogs past passers-by b) not have told you that the woman tried to touch your dog if she hadn't as indicated in your first post - big difference between a muppet putting their hand out to an agitated dog and a dog lunging at someone walking past minding their own business.
 
EquestrianFairy said:
He has a facial halti which is a muzzle to some degree as once you pull on it it closes his mouth, unfortunately this had come off. We are going to buy a materialised muzzle for when the dog walker walks him from now on..
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A halti does not constitute a muzzle, nor does it work as a muzzle in any way - if a dog can't open it's mouth in a halti it is a seriously bad fit.
If you are now buying a proper muzzle for walks PLEASE buy a baskerville style - these do not restrict breathing like the fabric muzzles and are much nicer for the dog. My personal preference are the "Baskerville Ultra" black rubber ones, they are comfortable, durable and secure.

As an aside - is your dog walker insured? She should be and as she was in control of the dogs at the time of the incident is likely to be at least partially liable.
 
I was going to say bu a basket muzzle rather than fabric one so he can pant! And I'd probably be looking at changing things so I walked them or the dog walker was walking thme somewhere with open space so there is no conflict like this-to be honest there is an arguement that a dog that is dangerous when nervous as yours is should only be out with certain personnel as this would not have been good had it been a child/elderly person who fell over etc. It's not fair to expect the public to avoid your dog to avoid being bitten regardless of previous problems.
 
My mums neighbour was bitten by a dog while walking his. The other dog was off the lead and came for him and his dog who was on the lead. He needed stitches' in his hand where the dog bit him. He reported incident to police and the dog warden was informed. The owner of the other dog got a slap on wrist and told to muzzle dog in public. BTW this wasn't the first time that dog had bitten anyone either.

I personally wouldn't worry just yet but maybe get a muzzle to show you are taking the incident into hand, as word can get round fast that you have a nasty dog so to say
 
Pendlehog said:
A halti does not constitute a muzzle, nor does it work as a muzzle in any way - if a dog can't open it's mouth in a halti it is a seriously bad fit.
If you are now buying a proper muzzle for walks PLEASE buy a baskerville style - these do not restrict breathing like the fabric muzzles and are much nicer for the dog. My personal preference are the "Baskerville Ultra" black rubber ones, they are comfortable, durable and secure.

As an aside - is your dog walker insured? She should be and as she was in control of the dogs at the time of the incident is likely to be at least partially liable.
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THIS
 
EquestrianFairy said:
I have said I will buy a muzzle for her to use in future although in this case he had managed to remove his facial halti which is part muzzle anyway during the argument with the two Akitas- now this could be seen as my fault for not ensuring it was tight enough as he has never gotten it off before


I had a dog on trial from a rescue centre that was reactive to other dogs and had to be walked in a halti with a lead attached AND a collar/harness and lead. He used to go mental at the sight of another dog and twisted and lunged around so much that he could get out of halti or a body harness. It was like to trying to hold onto a wet fish LOL. No idea how he managed it but he did.
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I will look for the Baskerville ones tomorrow. Yes she is insured, she gave them her details but they weren't really interested in her it was more the dog and us as his owners.

I didn't know about the drugs CC, what are they called? I've paid hundreds for behaviourists and trainers- it's all come to the same conclusion that he is a nervous aggressive. We live in a built up area so they need to by pass streets before we get to the quiet mountain walks. It's the first time he's ever bitten someone when in public, he's managed to snap 3 times before but that was inside. He is 8 now and I've controlled it carefully for a very long time I feel very upset that this has happened as he is such an emotional dog. He is walked during quiet times and not during school hours or rush hours (like after work)

Hopefully this is the end of it now, I will get a muzzle tomorrow and have a discussion with the dog walker Thursday about what went wrong and ways to avoid such confrontation next time. He won't actively seek confrontation himself- he tends to shy away unless it's shoved in his face both dogs and people. We can walk on the opposite side of the road to other dogs and he isn't bothered, same with people. However dogs running at him barking will set him off and he takes a while to calm down afterwards (lots of crying and looking to me for reassurance etc)
 
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Hope this sorts itself without any authorities getting involved.

I was bitten by a collie more than ten years ago at a rescue place so I was a teenager. It bled a lot and I went to hospital for a tetanus injection. It never occurred to me to take it any further, and blamed myself as I put the back of my hand against the bars for the dog to sniff. I read the body language wrong and I now never trust nervous collies, and am wary of most collies if I'm honest :o
 
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