Negative rotation of pedal bone (x rays and before and after)

[AshTay]

Hi
I posted last week about my mare found to have negative rotation of the pedal bone. She's always had longer feet than I would have liked but I've had her over a year now and they were improving (but not rapidly enough apparently). She's unshod and is fed just chaff and a balancer.
Anyway, below are the x rays and also before/after shots of her new trim. The hind feet are the major problem. The vet is coming back next week to re-assess her feet (and also a forelimb lameness which was the original issue - a nerve block of the front end brought up bilateral lameness behind...).
I'm happy with the work of the vet and farrier but just wanted to share the xrays as I've found it helpful to look at other's xrays.

Left hind:

Right hind:

Left fore:

Right fore:

Before trim (hind):

After trim (hind)

 

[Wagtail]

Gosh, she does have a mismatched set of feet! The left fore actually has some positive rotation from what I can tell. I am learning myself and find all this fascinating. Can someone explain how you can see negative rotaion in the hinds because to me, the negative rotation seems to be where the short pastern bone meets the long pastern, not the pedal bone.

 

[AshTay]

I'm looking at the line that is sort of horizontal to the base of the hoofs but slopes down towards the toe in the fores but slopes upwards from the toe in the hinds. I think!

 

[TwoStroke]

I think the reverse rotation would have been diagnosed on the basis of the location of the pedal bone relative to the ground.

OP, was the horse comfortable after that trim? The farrier's been very agressive with the toe.

 

[Wagtail]

I'm looking at the line that is sort of horizontal to the base of the hoofs but slopes down towards the toe in the fores but slopes upwards from the toe in the hinds. I think!

Yes, it is very interesting. To my eyes, the rotation definitely stems from the pastern joint rather than the pedal bone which is actually still in line with the short pastern.

 

[AshTay]

I think the reverse rotation would have been diagnosed on the basis of the location of the pedal bone relative to the ground.

OP, was the horse comfortable after that trim? The farrier's been very agressive with the toe.

Yes, she was! She's on boxrest and I left her alone for 48 hours after the trim (well, she came out to hand graze on the grass just outside her stable but not on hard ground) and she's now walking out on hard ground for 15 mins everyday and is totally fine. The trim was just over a week ago.

 

[AshTay]

Yes, it is very interesting. To my eyes, the rotation definitely stems from the pastern joint rather than the pedal bone which is actually still in line with the short pastern.

Does it stem from there though or is it all due to the angles within the foot which are a consequence of the long toe?

 

[TwoStroke]

Yes, she was! She's on boxrest and I left her alone for 48 hours after the trim (well, she came out to hand graze on the grass just outside her stable but not on hard ground) and she's now walking out on hard ground for 15 mins everyday and is totally fine. The trim was just over a week ago.

I don't suppose you have photos of the sole before and after trim? *nerd alert*.

Wagtail - I think that may be where the 'rotation' is manifesting to an extent, however it appears to be caused by collapsed, run forward heels in the hoof.

Does it stem from there though or is it all due to the angles within the foot which are a consequence of the long toe?

I would be careful of assuming that it's caused by the toe - I'm pretty sure the real problem is in the caudal hoof/heels. Just mho, however.

 

[AshTay]

I don't suppose you have photos of the sole before and after trim? *nerd alert*.

lol, sorry, no. But he didn't appear to have taken loads off the sole. She had quite high heels and these seem better now. I wasn't able to be there (all happened so quickly) but apparently the farrier had the xrays on his phone and was looking at them as he did it and those were the pics that he took and sent to the vet afterwards. The wonders of modern technology!

 

[AshTay]

I would be careful of assuming that it's caused by the toe - I'm pretty sure the real problem is in the caudal hoof/heels. Just mho, however.

I agree - the vet actually said it was the heels. Not sure why I said toe above but obviously the whole hoof had issues and the toe was the most drasticly changed by the trim.

 

[montysmum1]

Thanku for posting these- very interesting!

 

[TwoStroke]

Ah, gotcha . I'm curious about the high heels - did the farrier say that? Or was it long heels? I can see long heels, but they look low and under run from those photos and the rads. I wasn't so much worried about the sole, I was just curious about where the white line is in all of that, and whether the farrier's rasped through it.

The x rays look fairly similar to my TB's earlier this year, so I'm just curious to compare treatments/results.

My TB's X Ray (left hind):

 

[AshTay]

Ah, gotcha . I'm curious about the high heels - did the farrier say that? Or was it long heels? I can see long heels, but they look low and under run from those photos and the rads. I wasn't so much worried about the sole, I was just curious about where the white line is in all of that, and whether the farrier's rasped through it.

The x rays look fairly similar to my TB's earlier this year, so I'm just curious to compare treatments/results.

They do look similar! How is your TB now? What were his/her symptoms?

By high heels I meant that there was quite a lot of horn around the sides of the heel and he's trimmed that right down. Previously, when trimmed, there wasn't much to come off at the toe (to my untrained eye) but to have trimmed the excess horn near the heel would have made the back of the foot drop right down (horn compensating for low heel bulbs??). I'm probably not making much sense, lol.

I'm going to take printouts when I see the vet next week as I've not had chance to talk in person with her (only on phone).

 

[TwoStroke]

They do look similar! How is your TB now? What were his/her symptoms?

By high heels I meant that there was quite a lot of horn around the sides of the heel and he's trimmed that right down. Previously, when trimmed, there wasn't much to come off at the toe (to my untrained eye) but to have trimmed the excess horn near the heel would have made the back of the foot drop right down (horn compensating for low heel bulbs??). I'm probably not making much sense, lol.

I'm going to take printouts when I see the vet next week as I've not had chance to talk in person with her (only on phone).

I've found it very useful to keep a photo diary, and compare improvements to soundness to improvements to feet - so far they are directly proportional.

The primary problem with mine was PSD - he was shockwaved and boxrested until June, and came sound - then immediately went lame again in the same leg - hock this time.

I decided that the leg issues were probably secondary to the feet, despite the fact he never blocked lame to the feet. So I've opted to turn away for 6-12 months and continue his barefoot rehab to sort the feet.

He's been out now for 5 months. I think the rotation got worse whilst he was on box rest and when he was initially turned away, but now there is a definite improvement in his feet and in his lameness. He was about 3-4/10ths lame at his worst, and is now 1-2/10ths.

I'll wait until he's grown a new hoof capsule, then re x-ray and get a vet to assess lameness. I'm cautiously optimistic at the moment (touch wood!.

 

[arizonahoney]

AshTay, mind if I hijack your post slightly and put up some of my own hoof x-rays? Having some hoof balance issues which are being addressed by vet and farrier - although farrier came today and said words to the effect of what the x-rays show do not reflect what he sees in real life. And I am a bit at a loss to what work to do with pony and how much in the meantime...

 

[AshTay]

I've found it very useful to keep a photo diary, and compare improvements to soundness to improvements to feet - so far they are directly proportional.

The primary problem with mine was PSD - he was shockwaved and boxrested until June, and came sound - then immediately went lame again in the same leg - hock this time.

I decided that the leg issues were probably secondary to the feet, despite the fact he never blocked lame to the feet. So I've opted to turn away for 6-12 months and continue his barefoot rehab to sort the feet.

He's been out now for 5 months. I think the rotation got worse whilst he was on box rest and when he was initially turned away, but now there is a definite improvement in his feet and in his lameness. He was about 3-4/10ths lame at his worst, and is now 1-2/10ths.

I'll wait until he's grown a new hoof capsule, then re x-ray and get a vet to assess lameness. I'm cautiously optimistic at the moment (touch wood!.

In our case, the lameness wasn't picked up until she went into the vets to investigate (a most likely unrelated) lameness in front (bruise, we think). She was only about 1/10th lame behind in both legs so no way would I have seen it. Although in hindsight, there were warning signs such as a reluctance to canter and occassional dragging of toes if not ridden up into the bridle.

arizonahoney - please do!!!!

 

[arizonahoney]

Thank you

Here are mine

I'm at work right now and a little busy but I can type up a brief history later to provide context.

 

[TwoStroke]

In our case, the lameness wasn't picked up until she went into the vets to investigate (a most likely unrelated) lameness in front (bruise, we think). She was only about 1/10th lame behind in both legs so no way would I have seen it. Although in hindsight, there were warning signs such as a reluctance to canter and occassional dragging of toes if not ridden up into the bridle.

arizonahoney - please do!!!!

What treatment has your vet recommended, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[AshTay]

What treatment has your vet recommended, if you don't mind me asking?

The trim was the first. I don't know what's next yet. She's on boxrest for the other lameness so we need to sort that out first. She's coming back next week to see her so hoping for some more information and prognosis then.

arizonahoney - will be interesting to hear the background and what others think about the xrays. All i can spot is that the foot doesn't look "level" from the front but I'm not at all sure if it's supposed to.

 

[Wagtail]

Thank you

Here are mine

I'm at work right now and a little busy but I can type up a brief history later to provide context.

Very interesting xrays. I can see how unbalanced the feet are and what the farrier must be referring to, as the angles of the bones are not at all the same as the angles of the outer hoof. Will be interested to hear what some more knowledgable people think of them. I can see you have reverse rotation, this time it does originate at the joint of the pedal bone.

 

[TwoStroke]

It will be very interesting to see your photos, arizonahoney.

I'm struggling to understand your farrier's confusion, but maybe the photo's will help.

Is the horse normally shod?

 

[Wagtail]

It will be very interesting to see your photos, arizonahoney.

I'm struggling to understand your farrier's confusion, but maybe the photo's will help.

Is the horse normally shod?

She has posted a link to the xrays in her previous post.

ETA I see you said photos. Sorry.

 

[arizonahoney]

Shod normally behind, Natural Balance in front for the last 2 shoeings.

Farrier can see that something is amiss, is trying to make a gradual correction, but I think he wants the vet to be there when he does it, so they can make the best, most informed decision.

 

[arizonahoney]

She has posted a link to the xrays in her previous post.

Ah, some confusion - I am planning on taking pics tomorrow to show what the feet look like in their current state.

 

[LucyPriory]

OP - x-rays not properly marked so really not much use. There are good detailed examples available to vets as to how they should mark them for farriery purposes and it's very easy.

Have to say the heels look collapsed and running forward - the long toe is part of this scenario.

This problem won't be corrected by trimming although it can be made worse by poor trimming as poor caudal hoof is really a work/management/health issue.

Some solar photos would be really useful.

 

[AshTay]

This problem won't be corrected by trimming although it can be made worse by poor trimming as poor caudal hoof is really a work/management/health issue.

Some solar photos would be really useful.

Thank you for looking. What would correct this problem if trimming alone won't do it?
She's currently on boxrest, walked out for 15 minutes everyday and is fed just a handful of chaff (hi fi lite) and bailey's lo cal balancer (and a calmer while she's in) everyday (she's actually fed the same all year round but with the addition of TopSpec cool condition cubes in the winter if she needs some extra).

 

[LucyPriory]

Well diet's an issue. I wouldn't feed any of the current ration, all known to cause problems in the sensitive horse.

You need a low sugar/starch base such as kwik beet or fast fibre, maybe some micronised linseed and a good quality supplement such as pro hoof.

Your horse may protest (mine threw tantrums) because this is so low sugar, but they do get used to it. You may need to add low sugar flavourings to make it more palatable. There are endless lists on this forum.

The heels are quite weak and will be getting worse with box rest. Comfortable footsteps are the key to building up caudal hoof strength. Boots and pads to start with if needs be. Think of doing lots of low level reps at the gym - you are toning!

When the caudal hoof is in poor condition the digital cushion atrophies and the back of the foot collapses - hence 'negative rotation'. This will resolve when you rehab the back of the foot.

I suspect the bottom (solar view) of the hoof is in poor shape - please can you post photos? We can then advise from there.

 

[AshTay]

Well diet's an issue. I wouldn't feed any of the current ration, all known to cause problems in the sensitive horse.

You need a low sugar/starch base such as kwik beet or fast fibre, maybe some micronised linseed and a good quality supplement such as pro hoof.

Your horse may protest (mine threw tantrums) because this is so low sugar, but they do get used to it. You may need to add low sugar flavourings to make it more palatable. There are endless lists on this forum.

The heels are quite weak and will be getting worse with box rest. Comfortable footsteps are the key to building up caudal hoof strength. Boots and pads to start with if needs be. Think of doing lots of low level reps at the gym - you are toning!

When the caudal hoof is in poor condition the digital cushion atrophies and the back of the foot collapses - hence 'negative rotation'. This will resolve when you rehab the back of the foot.

I suspect the bottom (solar view) of the hoof is in poor shape - please can you post photos? We can then advise from there.

Thank you. I will try the pro hoof and get some photos. What can I feed by way of a broad multivit/mineral supplement to replace the lo cal (or does Pro Hoof cover this?).
What do you mean by "caudal"?
The boxrest is unavoidable at present as she has a buised near fore sole but it is improving. She's walking out comfortably without boots or pads though.

 

[LucyPriory]

Pro hoof or eqv is a good mineral supplement. Caudal - back of the foot. Think digital cushion and associated structures.