Neurological exam?

j1ffy

j1ffy

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Hi all - I'm after some thoughts / opinions. My 16yo PRE is semi-retired. He had a field accident when he was 5yo and we suspect a neck injury, though we've never found anything conclusive. I competed him up to Medium dressage but semi-retired him four years ago due to bilateral lameness, probably due to the neck.

He's been very happy pootling about hacking since then and seems to really enjoy getting out and about. However he's fallen over twice in the last two weeks - once on a beach ride (I wasn't there, but apparently he got anxious about the water, spooked and lost his back end. No harm done to him or rider) and on Sunday with my novice OH on board (standing at the mounting block, I shut a car door and he spooked backwards up a slope - didn't get his back legs out of the way so sat down then rolled onto his side. Again very slow-mo and no harm done).

I've had a sneaking worry for a while that he's mildly neurological and these incidents have my mind heading down that route again. He just doesn't seem to shift his back legs out of the way like a 'normal' horse would. He's had a tendency to go very 'elephant on a ball' for as long as I can remember (sadly not sure about before his field accident, he's always been an internal worrier though) but previously if he got in a tangle he could sort himself out.

So...is it worth splashing out on a neurological exam to see if I'm right before making a decision about his future, or do I put it down to coincidence / bad luck and carry on with the gentle hacking, or do I just fully retire him?
 
Red-1 said:
As you already had a worry before he fell, now he has fallen twice, I would take him for a vet exam. Knowledge is power.
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That was certainly my first thought. Then I wondered what I was hoping to achieve - I think I just want some certainty before making a final decision on retirement (I wouldn't be expecting a solution, that's for sure!).

Presumably a basic exam would look at gait and reactions?
 
j1ffy said:
That was certainly my first thought. Then I wondered what I was hoping to achieve - I think I just want some certainty before making a final decision on retirement (I wouldn't be expecting a solution, that's for sure!).

Presumably a basic exam would look at gait and reactions?
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My ginger heart horse had wobblers. I had an exam, he was trotted up, worked up and down hill, tight circles, feet placed in odd places to see if he replaced them correctly and had a tail pull test. He "failed" as in was wrong. I was set to PTS, but the vet wanted to try steroids as the X rays were not catastrophic.

He did improve. I got 6 months gentle hacking and another year retired before a stiff wind would have blown him over and I PTS before he was totally a wreck. It was a hard decision as I still sometimes gave him a lunge round and he was sound and looked wonderful. He had no difficulty in lying down/getting up but was sort of delayed when turning within his own length such as in the stable.

I think it would have been easier on me to have PTS as soon as I got the diagnosis TBH. He looked so well though and was not in pain.

263796961_393561895847557_6393394851924421816_n (1).jpg

My man. Loved the bones of him, trusted him with my life.
 
Red-1 said:
My ginger heart horse had wobblers. I had an exam, he was trotted up, worked up and down hill, tight circles, feet placed in odd places to see if he replaced them correctly and had a tail pull test. He "failed" as in was wrong. I was set to PTS, but the vet wanted to try steroids as the X rays were not catastrophic.

He did improve. I got 6 months gentle hacking and another year retired before a stiff wind would have blown him over and I PTS before he was totally a wreck. It was a hard decision as I still sometimes gave him a lunge round and he was sound and looked wonderful. He had no difficulty in lying down/getting up but was sort of delayed when turning within his own length such as in the stable.

I think it would have been easier on me to have PTS as soon as I got the diagnosis TBH. He looked so well though and was not in pain.

View attachment 122824

My man. Loved the bones of him, trusted him with my life.
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What a beauty, that must have been heartbreaking.

There are similarities - Indio's very happy out working and looks great. In hindsight I think he was happy doing dressage as I told him where to put his legs and balanced him. However he looks unwieldy when moving around at times and stands in some odd positions, he's usually fairly square but sometimes leaves his legs in the oddest places.
 
ihatework said:
I think for safety sake you should have a neuro exam, if you need suggestions pm me.
A basic neuro isn’t actually that spendy.
If that is suggestive of issues you can then decide if you want to investigate further/treat or retire I suppose
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Thanks IHW. It would basically be a check then retire, he has other issues so it wouldn't be worth treating and he's very happy being a lawnmower!
 
j1ffy said:
That was certainly my first thought. Then I wondered what I was hoping to achieve - I think I just want some certainty before making a final decision on retirement (I wouldn't be expecting a solution, that's for sure!).

Presumably a basic exam would look at gait and reactions?
Click to expand...

I see you've booked a vet but I've got this written so I'll post it anyway for others to see.

Basic exam is pretty easy to do yourself. Turn him in a tight a circle as you can. His inside hind leg should cross over in front of the outside one without kicking himself. Repeat on the other side.

Reverse up, he should step back in pairs. Repeat with the head held up as high as you can.

Get someone to walk him in a straight line. Pull his tail to one side. He should brace against you, not be seriously unbalanced. (Be careful with this one, I nearly pulled my last horse right off his feet on top of me, he was so weak! )

Pick up one of his hind feet and put it down on top of the other hind foot. He should shift it straight away. Repeat with the other side.

Walk him up and down a steep hill. He should step normally, not drag feet or trip or seem over cautious.

You might get enough from that to make the retirement decision for yourself.
.
 
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ycbm said:
I see you've booked a vet but I've got this written so I'll post it anyway for others to see.

Basic exam is pretty easy to do yourself. Turn him in a tight a circle as you can. His inside his leg should cross over in front of the outside one without kicking himself. Repeat on the other side.

Reverse up, he should step back in pairs. Repeat with the head held up as high as you can.

Get someone to walk him in a straight line. Pull his tail to one side. He should brace against you, not be seriously unbalanced. (Be careful with this one, I nearly pulled my last horse right off his feet on top of me, he was so weak! )

Pick up one of his hind feet and put it down on top of the other hind foot. He should shift it straight away. Repeat with the other side.

Walk him up and down a steep hill. He should step normally, not drag feet or trip or seem over cautious.

You might get enough from that to make the retirement decision for yourself.
.
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Thank you - that's helpful! TBH I need the vet to do his vaccination and a reassessment of Chilli anyway so may as well tag it on :)
 
j1ffy said:
That was certainly my first thought. Then I wondered what I was hoping to achieve - I think I just want some certainty before making a final decision on retirement (I wouldn't be expecting a solution, that's for sure!).

Presumably a basic exam would look at gait and reactions?
Click to expand...
What you will achieve is that you'll know if there's a spinal chord impingement in his neck. Any mobile vet can take a neck x-ray for you ,.shouldn't cost more than a few hundred quid.
 
ycbm said:
I see you've booked a vet but I've got this written so I'll post it anyway for others to see.

Basic exam is pretty easy to do yourself. Turn him in a tight a circle as you can. His inside hind leg should cross over in front of the outside one without kicking himself. Repeat on the other side.

Reverse up, he should step back in pairs. Repeat with the head held up as high as you can.

Get someone to walk him in a straight line. Pull his tail to one side. He should brace against you, not be seriously unbalanced. (Be careful with this one, I nearly pulled my last horse right off his feet on top of me, he was so weak! )

Pick up one of his hind feet and put it down on top of the other hind foot. He should shift it straight away. Repeat with the other side.

Walk him up and down a steep hill. He should step normally, not drag feet or trip or seem over cautious.

You might get enough from that to make the retirement decision for yourself.
.
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Sorry but these "home tests " for wobbler are utterly pointless. My severe case didn't have a problem with those "tests ". The one way to check for spinal chord impingement is via x-ray.
 
This is a very easy video to use and is very informative and interesting as there are comparisons between neuro and non neuro impaired horses.


Bear in mind a horse can show neurological deficits/ataxia without necessarily having Wobblers, as one of my previous horses did but didn't have Wobblers. However, the one before her who also showed symptoms did.

Lari showed a terrible response to his tail sway test, this is why I demanded xrays, which showed changes in 3 areas in his neck. But it turned out it was his SI that was damaged and this had the effect of causing him to sway like a drunken sailor on a listing ship.

He's not like that at all now.

I second what others say about having neck xrays. Either this or a myelogram where they anaethetise the horse and inject dye into the spinal cord and take xrays to show impingement. This is obviously not without risk.
 
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Sossigpoker said:
Sorry but these "home tests " for wobbler are utterly pointless. My severe case didn't have a problem with those "tests ". The one way to check for spinal chord impingement is via x-ray.
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They certainly are not pointless. If your horse fails them then you know that you have a problem. The fact that not all cases of spinal impingement fail them does not make them pointless.

Wobblers are called wobblers because they wobble. Cases of spinal impingement which wobble , and not all do, are extremely likely to fail several of those tests, which are the standard ones carried out by vets.
.
 
Not sure if it shows on the video but the panniculus test is very evident on a wobblers horse or at least it was on mine. Running a strand of hay across the spine and muscles on my wobblers horse showed very little response, the skin is meant to twitch as if a fly is irritating them.

I
 
Sossigpoker said:
What you will achieve is that you'll know if there's a spinal cord impingement in his neck. Any mobile vet can take a neck x-ray for you ,.shouldn't cost more than a few hundred quid.
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He’s had numerous neck X-rays since he was 5 (both mobile and at the hospital) - no problems found. Anything wrong is probably in c6-7 and difficult to find
 
j1ffy said:
He’s had numerous neck X-rays since he was 5 (both mobile and at the hospital) - no problems found. Anything wrong is probably in c6-7 and difficult to find
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That's good that he's had x-rays. Depending on how large he is , a hospital x-ray may be able to penetrate the area. Or MRI or bone scan.
What does your vet suggest ?
 
Sossigpoker said:
That's good that he's had x-rays. Depending on how large he is , a hospital x-ray may be able to penetrate the area. Or MRI or bone scan.
What does your vet suggest ?
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Maybe you’ve not read the full thread but the vet is coming on Friday. Previously counselled against a bone scan though due to the nature of his issues when Indio was semi-retired four years ago.

This is a mostly retired horse and the question, as per my first post, is whether he can continue hacking or should retire. He has other issues and I won’t be looking to ‘fix’ a problem or spend £1000s investigating out of pure curiosity.
 
j1ffy said:
Thanks for this and the video. I’ve read up a lot on c6-7 issues and some of the symptoms in milder cases match Indio, hence believing there’s an issue in that area that doesn’t show up on standard neck X-rays, hence us not finding anything to date.
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If you need a specialist you might like to try Dickie Hepburn. https://www.bwequinevets.co.uk/team-member/4/Richard-Hepburn/
I believe he has specialised in neck issues, he attended a clinic at my vets where my horse was one of the 'subjects'. Didn't feel she warranted having more neck injections due to the risk of laminitis but used her as a study horse in front of my friend who was one of the students for CPD in her role as vet physio.

See reply 17. https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/interesting-debate-at-the-yard-today.825742/
 
Sounds so like Pete. He fell over a few times. Failed all the neuro exams. Had the big work up at Liphook. Vague c6-c7 changes. Was recommended course of steroids and further neck injected steroids. We didn’t bother with those. Liphook have guarded prognosis 2012 as you know we had another eight years including his barefoot journey. The worst thing was his myleogram as he was then isolated. Very best of luck on Friday. You know him best.
 
Birker2020 said:
If you need a specialist you might like to try Dickie Hepburn. https://www.bwequinevets.co.uk/team-member/4/Richard-Hepburn/
I believe he has specialised in neck issues, he attended a clinic at my vets where my horse was one of the 'subjects'. Didn't feel she warranted having more neck injections due to the risk of laminitis but used her as a study horse in front of my friend who was one of the students for CPD in her role as vet physio.

See reply 17. https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/interesting-debate-at-the-yard-today.825742/
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As I said previously, I won’t be investigating further or looking to treat. He owes me nothing and Friday will purely be to see if there’s an issue that means riding is no longer sensible (i.e. safe). Thank you for all the info though!
pistolpete said:
Sounds so like Pete. He fell over a few times. Failed all the neuro exams. Had the big work up at Liphook. Vague c6-c7 changes. Was recommended course of steroids and further neck injected steroids. We didn’t bother with those. Liphook have guarded prognosis 2012 as you know we had another eight years including his barefoot journey. The worst thing was his myleogram as he was then isolated. Very best of luck on Friday. You know him best.
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I can’t believe I didn’t know that Pete had c6-7 issues!
 
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