fburton
Well-Known Member
Just wondering why it was deleted. I thought it contained some reasonable points. I would be grateful if someone could PM me with the reason. Thanks!
I can't say for certain, but I should imagine that it was deleted as yet again the OP of that thread was advertising her partner/husbands business, which she does in all her posts. It was reported to admin as advertising, I know because I did the reporting.
'Neutral Reinforcement'..
Are you using 'new' terminology... is that allowed lol
Fair enough, but calling it "neutral reinforcement" doesn't make sense to me (and probably not to others who know about positive and negative reinforcement). At least, not yet! For starters, "reinforcement" means something very specific in learning theory - it's increasing a behaviour. "Negative" means taking away, not something bad; and "positive" means adding. So "neutral reinforcement" would mean increasing a behaviour by doing nothing. Is that what is actually meant?He explained that there is a small space between these theories in which you must work, where it is completely neutral territory. It look’s like I am doing nothing because all I am doing is keeping a horse’s behaviour between the positive and negative ie the neutral zone. Just like someone balancing a basket of fruit on their head. When they are good at it it seems to be part of them, but while you are learning, then you’ll see them make huge, erratic adjustments from positive to negative to keep things in balance.
The horse by nature understands that life provides both negative and positive stimuli and is looking for a balance between the two. When it is right the reward is peace and understanding.
So "neutral reinforcement" would mean increasing a behaviour by doing nothing. Is that what is actually meant?
Please note that I'm not saying that Mr Better Half doesn't have useful ideas to contribute - I'd just prefer he used less confusing/misleading terminology!
I am now utterly lost I must be stupid - I missed the oiginal thread but it sounds fascinating.
Fair enough, but calling it "neutral reinforcement" doesn't make sense to me (and probably not to others who know about positive and negative reinforcement). At least, not yet! For starters, "reinforcement" means something very specific in learning theory - it's increasing a behaviour. "Negative" means taking away, not something bad; and "positive" means adding. So "neutral reinforcement" would mean increasing a behaviour by doing nothing. Is that what is actually meant?
Please note that I'm not saying that Mr Better Half doesn't have useful ideas to contribute - I'd just prefer he used less confusing/misleading terminology!
Sorry, but I'm even less clear about this than before. Are you simply talking about tiny/very subtle pressures and releases, or something more mysterious?
I missed it too. I don't think science includes neutral reinforcement. However, although not knowing what was meant by it on that thread, I do think 'neutral' has a place in learning and even as a reinforcer if a reinforcer can be 'neutral'.What is neutral reinforcement? I know about positive and negative reinforcement, and positive and negative punishment, but I haven't come across neutral reinforcement before. I am intrigued by this, can anyone explain? I didn't see the thread referred to.
I've never heard the term before but clicked on the post to find out if it was what I thought it might be.
Watching horseman who seem to do nothing and yet get the task done on a horse that would normally react strongly, my impression was, that this approach lessens anxiety when used appropriately.
Positive/negative reward can be over used, thereby creating a desensitized horse. By seemingly not responding to undesired behaviour, but continuing in a calm manner, quietly getting the job done, the approach can instil confidence in the horse if the handler is empathic and observent.
I've never heard the term before but clicked on the post to find out if it was what I thought it might be.
Watching horseman who seem to do nothing and yet get the task done on a horse that would normally react strongly, my impression was, that this approach lessens anxiety when used appropriately.
Positive/negative reward can be over used, thereby creating a desensitized horse. By seemingly not responding to undesired behaviour, but continuing in a calm manner, quietly getting the job done, the approach can instil confidence in the horse if the handler is empathic and observent.
'Neutral' definitely has a place in learning if it means 'nothing' or 'not doing anything in particular' or 'just relaxing' or 'being quiet'. It can be - and often is! - where you go with the horse after you 'release'. The contrast between it and 'pressure' doesn't have to be huge. In fact, the pressure can be so slight that no one else but you and the horse know it's happening. Then the whole interaction looks 'quiet'. Horses appreciate quiet. It's probably what we should all be aiming for!I missed it too. I don't think science includes neutral reinforcement. However, although not knowing what was meant by it on that thread, I do think 'neutral' has a place in learning and even as a reinforcer if a reinforcer can be 'neutral'.
That is precisely my concern. It needs to be properly defined. Then we can tell if it is truly a new phenomenon, or something that is adequately covered by the words we already have.I see we are talking about a term used (invented??) by a particular person. My comments may be invalid in that context then. I think it is open to causing a great deal of confusion actually, unless it is clearly defined.
That is precisely my concern. It needs to be properly defined. Then we can tell if it is truly a new phenomenon, or something that is adequately covered by the words we already have.
'Neutral' definitely has a place in learning if it means 'nothing' or 'not doing anything in particular' or 'just relaxing' or 'being quiet'. It can be - and often is! - where you go with the horse after you 'release'. The contrast between it and 'pressure' doesn't have to be huge. In fact, the pressure can be so slight that no one else but you and the horse know it's happening. Then the whole interaction looks 'quiet'. Horses appreciate quiet. It's probably what we should all be aiming for!
I think that 'nothing' or wait after the release is very underestimated and under used myself. Humans always seem to want to be 'doing' instead of waiting and 'listening' for the response and waiting as long as the required response continues, as in when a horse maintains a gait until a new signal is given. Being quiet/neutral whilst the horse is obliging with the trot you asked for rather than slowing or speeding up, is surely what tells the horse everything is ok by his rider/handler, therefore he is doing as requested.'Neutral' definitely has a place in learning if it means 'nothing' or 'not doing anything in particular' or 'just relaxing' or 'being quiet'. It can be - and often is! - where you go with the horse after you 'release'. The contrast between it and 'pressure' doesn't have to be huge. In fact, the pressure can be so slight that no one else but you and the horse know it's happening. Then the whole interaction looks 'quiet'. Horses appreciate quiet. It's probably what we should all be aiming for!
. That is when horses really learn.
When my OH (cant mention his name because of advertising Law) did large demos in Denmark, Copenhagen Vet School wanted to work with OH as they could not work out if he was systematically desensitising or flooding as the process was so fast. OH then explained his theory as Neutral R.
He explained that there is a small space between these theories in which you must work, where it is completely neutral territory. It looks like I am doing nothing because all I am doing is keeping a horses behaviour between the positive and negative ie the neutral zone. Just like someone balancing a basket of fruit on their head. When they are good at it it seems to be part of them, but while you are learning, then youll see them make huge, erratic adjustments from positive to negative to keep things in balance.
The horse by nature understands that life provides both negative and positive stimuli and is looking for a balance between the two. When it is right the reward is peace and understanding.