New horse bad behaviour ... Help!

[ChelseaGostomska]

I purchased a 5yr TB ex racer on March 9th, when I went to see him he was chilled, almost donkey like, something about him I really liked. he was a tiny bit nippy when it came to doing the girth and changing his rugs at the front.

The first week I had him he was fine, just as he was when I went to see him, on day 8 I went up to ride, he seemed really aggy and angry, I could barely get his girth done up without getting seriously bitten. He then was difficult to ride. Since then he has become so bad I am unable to even groom him without him cow kicking, or going in to really bite. He has bitten my whole hand and kicked me twice now.

I have been so calm and gentle with him, I have contacted the old owner after 8 days and she wont take him back, I have also been in contact with the groom from his old racing yard and she has said he was aggressive and not wired right. I think hes banannas, and have spoken to a natural horsemanship expert who is coming to assess this Friday.

Does anyone have any suggestions or any similar experiences? it could be ulcers but he seems to have been this way since his racing yard him 2 years ago....

I am at a loose end as its a private sale and hes not even retrained so he has not much going for him right now, I don't want to be forking out loads of money to search for problems and I don't want him to hurt anyone else.

(I also did get a 2 stage vetting and he was fine during this at the old owners yard)



PLEASE HELP!

 

[tamsinkb]

My immediate thought was Ulcers - he may , or may not have shown symptoms recently, but he has had upheaval in his life recently and that alone could trigger a flare up. I'd look at his diet and management - as much fibre as you can get into him, and take out any mollassed feed / grains if he is on any. If don't want to / can't afford to go down the route of scoping, try him on a ulcer specific supplement to see if that improves anything, there are loads on the market - you tend to get what you pay for in terms of effectiveness. Did you have bloods taken at the vetting?

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

I may have him scoped for Ulcers, he did have bloods taken at the vetting but from what I gather and the vet has also said she doesn't think he was doped. He is fed on Pony nuts and Chaff

 

[ihatework]

Sorry to be harsh but you have bought a non-retrained ex race horse.
They require experienced handling and more than likely on going Vet support.

I hope he is insured or you can get access to some funds.

For me I’d assume a course of gastroguard and sulphacrate as standard.
I’d then assume very regular qualified Physio work alongside a decent instructor that can assist you with the retraining.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

He never raced and only trained for a short period as he was too slow. I have a very experienced yard manager on site and she is very concerned about his ground behavior as well.

the retaining in regards to riding is not a problem as I have experience in retraining and backing horses so this is not a problem for me it is purely the fact I cant seem to get anywhere near my horse without him attacking me. Just looking for advice on why he may be acting this way and if anyone else has had similar experiences.

I would be more interested in finding the route cause and then treat rather than choosing a course of gastroguard and sulphacrate.

 

[ihatework]

I’d suggest a vet visit then as a first step as it sounds to me like the horse is quite clearly telling you to FO

 

[be positive]

He never raced and only trained for a short period as he was too slow. I have a very experienced yard manager on site and she is very concerned about his ground behavior as well.

the retaining in regards to riding is not a problem as I have experience in retraining and backing horses so this is not a problem for me it is purely the fact I cant seem to get anywhere near my horse without him attacking me. Just looking for advice on why he may be acting this way and if anyone else has had similar experiences.

I would be more interested in finding the route cause and then treat rather than choosing a course of gastroguard and sulphacrate.

The root cause could be many things including being badly handled in the past which makes him aggressive as a means of defence, I would strongly suspect he was doped or something similar if he was that quiet when you saw him, the dealers that ended up in prison used something very long acting which is why they got away with doping for as long as they did, my first thought would be to get the bloods tested assuming you had some taken.

option 2 if you don't want to spend much money is to turn him away properly for 6 months and see if he turns around, with the right herd he could settle.

I would be very suspicious of any horse that has not raced yet as not been reschooled in 2 years it makes no sense to keep one and not put in some work in order to get more money.

 

[abb123]

I had an uninsured (uninsurable!) horse that had ulcers. I found that 14 tablets of nexium a day for 2 months really helped clear them and then 4 tablets a day kept them away. It is omeprazole and has the same gastro resistant coating but is in tablet rather than powder form. The only downside is that they must eat them whole and not chew them which can be a bit tricky but I found if they were well mixed in to her feed then she ate them straight down. It isn't cheap but it is cheaper than a course of gastroguard and you can just buy them on amazon or I got a load of them from Costco when they were on offer there. My vet agreed with this course of treatment and helped work out the dose but I would suggest checking with your vet too.

 

[Templebar]

I would be more interested in finding the route cause and then treat rather than choosing a course of gastroguard and sulphacrate.

Then get him scoped, but the above suggestion could be a diagnosis if it works.

I would probably get the bloods checked in case, they may show something as he may have been treated. I think for the previous owner to basically want nothing to do with him after 8 days they were pretty relived to have got rid. Most racehorses have ulcers and get branded as bad attitudes so i would think its fairly likely that he will have them and may need to live on the treatment as a lot do. IHW's suggestion of you buying an ex racehorse untrained and your experience is possibly because to me your original post sounds immature and inexperienced, you have not stated any experience so how are we to know, taking on an ex racehorse for retraining is not for the inexperienced or someone without money/insurance to help cover the costs of vet treatment.

 

[Notimetoride]

I too think you need to have this horse scoped. My horse is very susceptible to ulcers and can advise that nothing off the shelf will treat ulcers. You need a vets diagnosis and veterinary treatment if ulcers are found. And if you successfully treat them there is a good chance they will come back do you need to do an awful lot of research in managing them and work v closely with your vet. You then have to deal with the learned behaviour that have arisen from the pain the ulcers cause. You're in this for the long haul I'm afraid. You can turn this around but it probably won't be cheap and it will take a lot of time and patience.

 

[Goldenstar]

You need to assume he has ulcers until you know differently .
Tbh if I would bought a horse out of training I would expect it to have ulcers and I would give a course of medication to clear them up without putting the horse through the whole scoping thing given he’s aggressive the withdrawal of food would be something I would want to avoid .
There’s much you have not told us is he getting turnout is he safe to catch and lead what are you feeding him ( I would be have him on hay and grass and nothing else )
If he’s ok to handle until you are in close contact ie grooming and sort of thing I think there’s hope but if he’s aggressive to catch and lead etc life is too short .
Get him out in a field with a sensible friend as much as possible some horses out of training need a long time to adjust it’s early days .
It’s my experiance aggressive horses usually have pain and a vet is where you need to start , you need the right vet for a case like this .
It’s curious he was so calm when you viewed him it’s a shame he did not have a five stage vetting because I would have the blood looked at .
Horses like this are cheap to buy because there’s often considerable cost in producing them and most of that will usually be the vet.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

Hiya,

yes reading back my post does seem to be inexperienced, he is now my 5th horse and my 3rd to retrain. He had bloods taken from his 2 stage vetting, and he is an absolute donkey to bring in and out of the field. fortunately I have him insured but will need to look at insurance as he may not be covered as his problem might be pre existing !

I spoke to the vet this morning who vetted him and she was zero help what so ever, my concern is he was so calm when I viewed him etc and now he is not. Its a difficult one as I know a lot of experienced people and I am getting many different opinions.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

forgot to mention, the horse is turned out during the day and bought in at night, he's fine to turnout and bring in.
I do have experience retraining horses, its his ground work that I find disturbing and I am just looking for constructive positive advice from people who may have or know of someone who has been in a similar situation!

I have contacted my vets and she's not been very helpful so I will most probably seek help from another Vet. Hopefully this horseman ship expert can advise if she believes its due to pain or not.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

I’d suggest a vet visit then as a first step as it sounds to me like the horse is quite clearly telling you to FO

he most certainly is telling me to FO, My vets not advised much help or recommended next steps so im hoping the horsemanship expert will be able to advise on a potential route cause which can then be investigated by a Vet

 

[Templebar]

I have contacted my vets and she's not been very helpful so I will most probably seek help from another Vet. Hopefully this horseman ship expert can advise if she believes its due to pain or not.

I think most people here on the forum would agree its pain related and i probably wouldn't waste money on a horsemanship person until i had attempted to treat something. As GS says i would try the medication and go and do some research into just how many horses have ulcers and how many out of racing have ulcers. I know your boy has never raced but he will still have been kept and managed like one which is the point.

Thank you for the further information its helpful, i would run the bloods through the vets before you change, out of curiosity in what way was the vet unhelpful.

I would also take the pressure off and don't do any work with him at the moment, just do the bare minimum to him and let him settle into his new life.

 

[Wagtail]

It does sound like ulcers. I would guess that he was being treated for them and then sold to you without disclosure. It is easy to obtain omeprazole treatments for horses without a vet even being involved. The timing of his bad behaviour would suggest that this has now worn off and his ulcers have come back with a vengence.

 

[bollybop]

I’m suprised if a horse behaviourist would come out if they think there might be a chance the horse may have a veterinary problem. Unless they are local, and cheap, I wouldn’t bother at this stage tbh. (The ones I’ve used have been next to useless).

Get him in for scoping, should only be £200 or so, then you know what your working with.

 

[Shay]

I would echo getting him scoped. But I do have experience with a horse that was just simply aggressive. He'd been handled badly but he was also the type who - if he thought you were going to hurt him - would kill you first. And stomp on the bits afterward. He was massively talented -and actually incredibly loving. But if you made a wrong move he would have you.

You've got three things here... keep yourself safe. Don't handle him without a hat and suitable shoes. Get a vet and have him checked over properly. So much is missed at a stage 2 - it would probably be worth having a full work up now. Make sure the vet is experienced in handling difficult horses. Once you can either treat the root cause or possibly turn away as suggested above, then you can work on what behaviour remains. Aggressive horses can come good - but you need to exclude any source of pain / discomfort first.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

Thank you for your advice, I have a friend of a friend who is a horsemanship expert so £30 for her to come and look at him for an hour and a half isn't much to me, I've stopped riding him as I physically cannot get a saddle on him at the moment (Saddle has been fitted by a saddler) and will keep him in a bit of work just lunging, I think next steps I will just get him scoped to rule it out.

my vet said maybe try him on some bute because then you know he may be in pain if he improves! she didn't give much in the way of what else shed recommend! I think I need to speak to another vet!

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

Hi Wagtail, Thank you for your comment!
I believe this may be the case, fortunately I have enough money to scope him etc but theres only so much you can justify spending until it gets silly!

His old owner did not have him registered to an equine vet practice she told me a general animal vet saw him (Bizarre) maybe she suspected ulcers and treated him with paste etc, do you know how long it takes for treatment of ulcers to ware off?

 

[Goldenstar]

If vet whomdid the vetting has bloods get a price ASAP to look a them for sedation and anti inflammatory/ pain relief drugs .
That won’t be cheap but if you were sold a medicated horse you will be able to get out of it quickly if the bloods are clear at least you know that and it’s not in the back of your mind .

 

[Goldenstar]

Hi Wagtail, Thank you for your comment!
I believe this may be the case, fortunately I have enough money to scope him etc but theres only so much you can justify spending until it gets silly!

His old owner did not have him registered to an equine vet practice she told me a general animal vet saw him (Bizarre) maybe she suspected ulcers and treated him with paste etc, do you know how long it takes for treatment of ulcers to ware off?

So the horse had ulcer treatment before .
Ulceration can form in hours and the stress of moving home can easily trigger them again .
Horses with ulcers are expensive to keep you will have to manage this for ever .
I would NOT give the horse ulcer medication not formulated to break down in the equine gut there are two types of ulcer one may need medication with antibiotics as well as pepizole or gastroguard .
I still would try to aviod scoping this horse if it where me I would start with a months gastrogard followed by two weeks at a half dose .
These horses are not cheap to manage but happily there are medications out there that work .
Given you know the horse had had ulcers if would have been wise to cover him with gastrogard over the move of homes .

 

[Hallo2012]

bute will make ulcers worse fyi.....


you can buy omeprazole and sucralfate from abler.com and i would be ordering with express shipping TODAY as he sounds like he's in a lot of pain.

i am not sure i would scope an already human aggressive horse as the starving sedating and procedure wont endear you to him any further. his background and symptoms would be enough for me to treat for 2 months and then start re backing carefully.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

So the horse had ulcer treatment before .
Ulceration can form in hours and the stress of moving home can easily trigger them again .
Horses with ulcers are expensive to keep you will have to manage this for ever .
I would NOT give the horse ulcer medication not formulated to break down in the equine gut there are two types of ulcer one may need medication with antibiotics as well as pepizole or gastroguard .
I still would try to aviod scoping this horse if it where me I would start with a months gastrogard followed by two weeks at a half dose .
These horses are not cheap to manage but happily there are medications out there that work .
Given you know the horse had had ulcers if would have been wise to cover him with gastrogard over the move of homes .

Hi Golden Star,

I have no idea if hes had ulcers before, and if shes been treating him for ulcers she has not disclosed any of this information. Im making an assumption she may have assumed and treated him for ulcers and then sold him on to me as she knows its expensive to keep a horse with ulcers !

 

[ester]

GS I think the OP is just speculating that maybe the previous owner had treated them previously and that was why he was ok when purchased.

OP it certainly sounds like you need to speak to another, better, vet!

 

[Wagtail]

Hi Wagtail, Thank you for your comment!
I believe this may be the case, fortunately I have enough money to scope him etc but theres only so much you can justify spending until it gets silly!

His old owner did not have him registered to an equine vet practice she told me a general animal vet saw him (Bizarre) maybe she suspected ulcers and treated him with paste etc, do you know how long it takes for treatment of ulcers to ware off?

It can be a week or more before the effects wear off. We had a horse here that had to always be on omeprazole. Her owner used to order it online from abler.com. I would not try a bute trial as that will make ulcers worse. The type of behaviour you describe, of not even being able to groom him is strongly indicative of ulcers. That's not to say he doesn't have something else wrong with him (which is exacerbating them), but a bute trial is pretty useless and even detrimental in situations like this. I very much doubt it is purely a behavioural problem.

 

[ChelseaGostomska]

thank you everyone for the advice its been really helpful hearing other opinions! , have spoken to another vet who was very helpful, and have just taken the plunge to get an gastroscopy booked in and take it from there !