New horse demonstrating his 'quirk'. Opinions welcomed!

Auslander

Auslander

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So - new boy is in work now - for those who don't know, he is a 15yr old Shire /TB cross, who has been successful up to Inter II level. He's not the biggest, flashiest mover, but is very correct, and very rideable. He has a bit of DJD inhis stifles, but is sound and willing.

He has not competed in a while, and has been used as a schoolmaster for that time. The reason he was offered to me was because he has an issue, which whilst it isn't a problem for me, is not ideal for teaching on.

I had been warned, so got on him very carefully the first time I rode him, and he didn't put a foot out of line. Today however, after lunging him for 15 minutes (so no tickle in his toes, and well warmed up) I got on, and the moment I was on, and moved my legs, he breathed in, put his back up, and would have taken off if I hadn't taken action to stop him. He felt like a youngster having a panic about a 'thing' on his back, every time I moved my legs, or leant forward to pat him, his back went up and he felt like he was about to explode. I sat very quietly, scratched his neck, and chatted to him, and he breathed out, back came down, and he visibly relaxed. This happened about three times, then he relaxed. He put his back up and went to take flight as I put my leg on to ask him to walk on, then relaxed and walked forward off a voice aid. He was fine after that...

It's really odd!! He's a 'been there, done it' horse,so no reason to be panicky about a rider on him. He has had his back looked at recently, so I don't think it's a pain reaction, and I can't really work out what it is that's bothering him. He was perfectly happy once we were underway - even took a bit of a kick in the ribs at one point.

I took him on with total transparency from the owner about this quirk - so I was expecting it - but I would like to work out what's going on in his little brain. I'm really interested in anyones thoughts/experiences.
 
Hmmm. Honest reaction? If the horse has not had an obvious trauma I'd say that IS a pain reaction. By 'looked at' I presume you mean x-rayed?

I am not of the 'everything that's non-compliant necessarily hurts' school but if an older, ridable horse starts having such a specific reaction completely out of the blue it would raise my antennae.

Sorry, not what you want to hear. There are things you can do for him and he may just get.better as his general way of going improves but it sounds like the sort of situation where someone could get hurt so seems sensible to take precautions.
 
measles said:
How long has he been exhibiting this behaviour for in his old home? Did something happen to trigger it that they are aware of, or did it start suddenly for no reason or has it alwasy been there?
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As far as I know, it started in the last few years - whether it was at his old yard, or while he was loaned to a friend of hers for a while, I don't know yet. I've asked her, and will update as soon as I know.
 
It started while he was on loan, then stopped when he came home. Was fine for 9 months, then started doing it again about three weeks ago.

He hasn't been x-rayed, but has had a chiro assessment - and she apparently said that she could find nothing amiss in his spine - all she noted was stiffness in his stifles.
 
TarrSteps said:
Hmmm. Honest reaction? If the horse has not had an obvious trauma I'd say that IS a pain reaction. By 'looked at' I presume you mean x-rayed?

I am not of the 'everything that's non-compliant necessarily hurts' school but if an older, ridable horse starts having such a specific reaction completely out of the blue it would raise my antennae.

Sorry, not what you want to hear. There are things you can do for him and he may just get.better as his general way of going improves but it sounds like the sort of situation where someone could get hurt so seems sensible to take precautions.
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Absolutely agree! I certainly won't be getting on him without someone there! At least I know he settles if I sit quietly and let him process for a minute. I almost feel like he was expecting me to hurt him, rather than him being in physical pain - if that makes sense?
 
I don't think a chiro would pick it up tbh, my horse has been seen by our chiro for years, and there is nothing wrong with his back, however when he was xrayed for something else, the vets identified that his spine was very closely set, and said in some instances it would exhibit as KS, although not in my horse :)
 
Old Bat said:
Inevitable question but does his saddle fit properly?
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The reaction happens no matter what saddle he is wearing. Mine appears to fit him well, with the proviso that I am going by what I have learned about saddle fitting over the course of my career - although I am not a fitter, and will be getting it checked asap.
 
I would get either an osteopath, or mctimoney practitioner to look at him. He could have a subluxation of a rib which i believe is very painful. It wouldn't show on an x-ray and the standard phsio wouldn't necessarily pick it up.
 
Stencilface said:
I don't think a chiro would pick it up tbh, my horse has been seen by our chiro for years, and there is nothing wrong with his back, however when he was xrayed for something else, the vets identified that his spine was very closely set, and said in some instances it would exhibit as KS, although not in my horse :)
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Hmm - hope not, although will add it to the list! I'dve thought, if it was kissing spines/pain that he wouldn't relax and get on with it after the initial blip though. It really does feel like fear rather than pain, and he responds well if I just st there and let him process his thoughts.
 
My gut feeling is that it is either current pain or a pain memory.
Could be something as simple as summer grass = increased weight = saddle pinching
Could possibly be a girthing issue, I've known one with a similar reaction
Does he launch into boncs?
Dare you try him bareback (tentative suggestion there!!)
Might be worth a set of x-rays to rule out a kissing spine.
 
I would definitely x ray to rule out kissing spine, I friend of mines horse recently got diagnosed with KS and the only symptom it displayed was being very tense when she first got on, he then relaxed, very similar to your horse. She thought it wasnt anything serious and had chirco etc and they said nothing wrong but when he didnt improve she had him x rayed and low and behold there was something else going on.
 
ihatework said:
My gut feeling is that it is either current pain or a pain memory.
Could be something as simple as summer grass = increased weight = saddle pinching
Could possibly be a girthing issue, I've known one with a similar reaction
Does he launch into boncs?
Dare you try him bareback (tentative suggestion there!!)
Might be worth a set of x-rays to rule out a kissing spine.
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He's new to me, so the saddle is new to him. If anything, its a bit wide for him.
Girthing issue had also sprung to mind - but he doesn't react to having it tightened from the ground, nor did he react when I tightened it from on top once he'd settled.

He didn't get a chance to launch/bronc, because I didn't let him. For the purposes of research, I should probably let him do his thing, to find out exactly what he would do given the chance - but frankly, I don't have the bottle!! I will try bareback - could be entertaining for everyone else to watch!!
I'm more than happy to do whatever it takes to get to the bottom of this - so if xrays are needed, that's what I'll do. He's a lovely chap, who doesn't owe anyone anything, so I will do whatever it takes to get to the bottom of this.
 
Tempi said:
I would definitely x ray to rule out kissing spine, I friend of mines horse recently got diagnosed with KS and the only symptom it displayed was being very tense when she first got on, he then relaxed, very similar to your horse. She thought it wasnt anything serious and had chirco etc and they said nothing wrong but when he didnt improve she had him x rayed and low and behold there was something else going on.
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Hmm! Thanks. Sounds like I need to start thinking along those lines.
 
Tempi said:
I would definitely x ray to rule out kissing spine, I friend of mines horse recently got diagnosed with KS and the only symptom it displayed was being very tense when she first got on, he then relaxed, very similar to your horse. She thought it wasnt anything serious and had chirco etc and they said nothing wrong but when he didnt improve she had him x rayed and low and behold there was something else going on.
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This! Unbelievably, my horse was diagnosed with 3 or 4 impinging vertebra, and all he ever did, even whilst I was still riding/jumping him was become very behind the leg/stuffy and showed a loss of performance. Never a single buck,rear, or slightest nasty behaviour. I kind of wish he made it more obvious poor soul.

For the sake of ruling it out I'd be tempted to get a set of x-rays done rather than pour money at physios/chiros/thermal imaging/saddle fitting etc if you think all those boxes are already ticked.

Best of luck.
 
Well it could just be that he's cold-backed, the riding school I occasionally work at has a horse that is an absolute grump and often bucks unless he's had the saddle on for 10min and a 20min walk with the saddle on. Annoying, but he's a fantastic horse and it's worth it. It definitely isn't pain, he's had every check/x-ray/scan under the sun, it's just him.

However the fact that he has developed his behaviour implies that there is some pain there or at least the memory of pain. If you're brave enough I would try him bareback (please have someone with you, go on the lunge if you feel safer) and guage his reaction then.
 
Apercrumbie said:
Well it could just be that he's cold-backed, the riding school I occasionally work at has a horse that is an absolute grump and often bucks unless he's had the saddle on for 10min and a 20min walk with the saddle on. Annoying, but he's a fantastic horse and it's worth it. It definitely isn't pain, he's had every check/x-ray/scan under the sun, it's just him.

However the fact that he has developed his behaviour implies that there is some pain there or at least the memory of pain. If you're brave enough I would try him bareback (please have someone with you, go on the lunge if you feel safer) and guage his reaction then.
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I'l definitely give the bareback a go! I'm pretty brave (although obv not brave enough to let him do whatever it is he wants to do!!) so not worried about that.
He had been lunged for a good 15 mins before I got on - and was bucking on the lunge, but they looked more like happy bucks than hurty bucks. He lunges very well - long and low and very active.
I was worried that it was my weight - I'm pretty hefty, but the last time he did it, he had a skinny little teenager on him - it's completely random as to when he does it, and with who.
 
ditto, i'd try bareback, and be very suspicious of the saddle tbh. are his teeth fine? nice bit that he's happy with?
also, when you say 'He didn't get a chance to launch/bronc, because I didn't let him'.... erm, how, exactly...?! because if a fight/flight animal decides to go for it, i don't think there's any possible way of stopping them. maybe you managed to reassure/distract him fast enough for him to start relaxing, which got you both out of the danger zone...
hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
kerilli said:
ditto, i'd try bareback, and be very suspicious of the saddle tbh. are his teeth fine? nice bit that he's happy with?
also, when you say 'He didn't get a chance to launch/bronc, because I didn't let him'.... erm, how, exactly...?! because if a fight/flight animal decides to go for it, i don't think there's any possible way of stopping them. maybe you managed to reassure/distract him fast enough for him to start relaxing, which got you both out of the danger zone...
hope you get to the bottom of it.
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I'm suspicious about saddle too - although it seems to fit nicely. Teeth are fine, and he is in a loose ring french link, which he seems to be fine with.

Re the 'not letting him' - he tensed up, started to bounce forward, and felt like he was about to launch himself in an unspecifed direction, so I grabbed a handful of the front end and said "Oi" - at which point he stopped in his tracks, put his back down and breathed out. It felt like he relaxed when he realised I wasn't going to let him bog off - the moment I had a contact and stuck my leg on, he settled.
 
My ex racer does this but at this time of year only. I have managed to narrow it down to being spring grass and him having mild ulcers which make him uncomfortable. I give him rennies 20min before riding and only do his girth up very slowly before riding. If he does get his back up i manage to make him stand then he settles then he moves off to voice then leg after few mins of settled walk.
 
kerilli said:
ah right, i see. sounds as if it was exactly what he needed, thank goodness!
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Might sound really silly, but it started when he was off being a happy hacker, and his reactions to things when in hand/on the yard/turned out are a bit extreme - yet the moment he goes in the school, he pulls his socks up and is very calm. The fact that he responded very well to me saying "No - we don't do that" makes me wonder if its something to do with having always been ridden in a very disciplined way, and not coping with being free to make his own choices.

God - I sound SO fluffy!!
 
'fluffy' - but you might have a point.
A good friend of mine who is a BHSI but old enough not to want to get dumped was given a former PSG horse on loan. Lovely horse but if you let him amble round the school he would spook violently at everything. The moment she gave him a kick and made him get on with it he was fine - I' m thinking this might be a similar thing, that he's a bit conditioned to discipline!
Funnily enough this horse never did anything on a hack - my novice rider OH used to nanny me and my neurotic hunter in heavy traffic on him :D
 
Isn't it current thought that anything up to 40% of horses have KS if you actually go looking for it? Obviously not all of those are in any way affected by it. If you x-ray and see impingement how are you going to know if it is that if you haven't explored other avenues (saddle fit etc) first?

Just saying like...
 
ironhorse said:
'fluffy' - but you might have a point.
A good friend of mine who is a BHSI but old enough not to want to get dumped was given a former PSG horse on loan. Lovely horse but if you let him amble round the school he would spook violently at everything. The moment she gave him a kick and made him get on with it he was fine - I' m thinking this might be a similar thing, that he's a bit conditioned to discipline!
Funnily enough this horse never did anything on a hack - my novice rider OH used to nanny me and my neurotic hunter in heavy traffic on him :D
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She sounds like me! I used to break in 2yr old racehorses, and get slung off fit eventers without a qualm, but now I'm looking down the barrel of 40, I don't have any interest in hitting the deck!!

He is apparently a fab hack as well - I might try getting on him on the yard, facing the outside world and see what happens!
 
How long ago was he diagnosed with DJD in his stifles? Just wondering whether there have been any changes since the initial diagnosis... ?
 
jesstickle said:
Isn't it current thought that anything up to 40% of horses have KS if you actually go looking for it? Obviously not all of those are in any way affected by it. If you x-ray and see impingement how are you going to know if it is that if you haven't explored other avenues (saddle fit etc) first?

Just saying like...
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I'm going to try him bareback, get the saddle looked at/replaced if nec (it will break my heart to say goodbye to it!) and give it a few days of just getting on and doing what I did today. Thing is - He hasn't been ridden in 6 weeks, he's come to a new place, and his exploits since he got here (jumping out of field/pulling back and depositing the contents of the gutter all over himself/knocking me over) don't exactly say "settled" to me.Plus he's been in solitary confinement since he got here. I'm not by any means ruling out pain of some sort, but there are other factors that can't be helping his state of mind. He's a sensitive soul - for a carthorse!!

I'm pulling a few strings to see if I can have a chat with an equine mobility specialist vet - the perks of working in the sector, and am trying to get through to my vet for a chat. I will get to the bottom of this - but firstly, I'm going to get him out in the field with another horse - he's officially finished his quarantine period today.
 
I have a schoolmaster event horse at livery that has changed shape and built up topline over the past year, he has had new saddles, regular physio and looks fab. Early this year he did the same as your horse, the first time was fairly explosive but put down to freshness and having just been clipped, saddle patch done in error.
He continued to lift his back almost every time mounted, he would be led forward and the back would come back down after just a short distance, he had physio, a change of dressage saddle, but still no difference but no loss of performance or problems in his work.
I was thinking possibly a real issue but was unsure what to advise the owners, this behaviour only happened at home never out at comps:confused:.
About 6 weeks ago his owner got on and as I went to lead him forward he slightly planted himself instead of moving with me, I got cross and insisted he went, I was actually worried this was a sign of deterioration but did not want to say so in front of his young rider, he walked on took a deep breath, in the way he does when relaxing, he has not done it since that day!!

I think it was memory of his discomfort during the time he really changed shape while we were getting new saddles sorted and he just needed a firm hand to remind him how to behave himself.
He has since been going even better, placed at BE last time, it is in my mind that there could be a problem and if he shows any more signs we will get a full check done.
Long waffle but thought it may be relevant :)
 
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